• Register
  • TOS
  • Privacy
  • @NeoGAF

blu
Member
(04-23-2012, 08:37 PM)
blu's Avatar

Originally Posted by axisofweevils

Amazing Tweet from Saturo Shibata (NoE):

https://twitter.com/#!/NintendoEurop...66193623629825

LOL!

Shibata is cool. Next thing he does he takes Patcher's name and puts it in a folder.
HylianTom
would totally do this old lady if his wife were guaranteed not to find out.
(04-23-2012, 08:37 PM)
HylianTom's Avatar

Originally Posted by Gravijah

you can't interact with the souls worlds much. it should be more like elder scrolls with plates and pots and forks. and foods.

Hell yes. Being able to fling a cup across the room can be pretty therapeutic at times..
AceBandage
Banned
(04-23-2012, 08:38 PM)
AceBandage's Avatar

Originally Posted by Agent Unknown

Yikes, now I'm getting scared again. Have any (reasonable) devs hinted at RAM size?

Lherre said it was likely more than 1. Not sure why 1.5 is "frightening". That was always my guess and made the most sense. The PS4 is likely not to have much more, honestly.
BGBW
Maturity, bitches.
(04-23-2012, 08:39 PM)
BGBW's Avatar

Originally Posted by blu

Shibata is cool. Next thing he does he takes Patcher's name and puts it in a folder.

Or tells IGN to go away because he only talks to the real press. HA HA!
TheExplodingHead
Banned
(04-23-2012, 08:42 PM)
TheExplodingHead's Avatar

Originally Posted by HylianTom

Hell yes. Being able to fling a cup across the room can be pretty therapeutic at times..

Agreed, throwing pot/cup after dying to Smough would take the edge off my nerves. But I guess that means there needs to be a interactive kitchen table next to every bonfire. :P

But yeah, Dark Souls with TEV object interactivity would be amazing where it's applicable.
Fourth Storm
Member
(04-23-2012, 08:43 PM)
Fourth Storm's Avatar

Originally Posted by AceBandage

Lherre said it was likely more than 1. Not sure why 1.5 is "frightening". That was always my guess and made the most sense. The PS4 is likely not to have much more, honestly.

Yeah, 1.5 GB is a decent amount. I've been dying to know what type it is, though (GDDR3/GDDR5/DDR3/something crazy). There's an incredibly wide range of bandwidth possibilities without knowing the type.
Instro
Banned
(04-23-2012, 08:44 PM)
Instro's Avatar

Originally Posted by ShockingAlberto

They seem pretty incomparable but I can already tell this is going to be an awful conversation so I'll just drop it right here.

I feel these Dark Souls comparisons are becoming the new "Zelda should be like Elder Scrolls".
Redford
aka Cabbie
(04-23-2012, 08:45 PM)
Redford's Avatar

Originally Posted by Instro

I feel these Dark Souls comparisons are becoming the new "Zelda should be like Elder Scrolls".

The underlying point being that it should become more western.
GameplayWhore
Member
(04-23-2012, 08:47 PM)
GameplayWhore's Avatar

Originally Posted by AceBandage

Lherre said it was likely more than 1. Not sure why 1.5 is "frightening". That was always my guess and made the most sense. The PS4 is likely not to have much more, honestly.

Yes, but I think this group are populated with fans of IdeaMan and AceBandage's brief conversation in which it became rather clear that the former was certain that the retail version of the system would have greater than 1.5GB memory. Many people have believed this so hard that anything less than 2GB would be a travesty.

edit: Oh, wait, AceBandage is you!
TheExplodingHead
Banned
(04-23-2012, 08:47 PM)
TheExplodingHead's Avatar

Originally Posted by Fourth Storm

Yeah, 1.5 GB is a decent amount. I've been dying to know what type it is, though (GDDR3/GDDR5/DDR3/something crazy). There's an incredibly wide range of bandwidth possibilities without knowing the type.

My gut says it's between 1.5-2GB in retail units (with 1-1.5 used for games). And DDR3 at launch, but like you say it could also be something crazy.
NeoGohan
Banned
(04-23-2012, 08:47 PM)
Role-Playing> Nintendo Wii U > Deep Silver Inc.

(Risen??)

3D Development > Nintendo Wii U > VEFXi

VEFXi Corporation is the leading manufacturer of high-quality 2D to 3D real-time video hardware converters and audio/video system products. Our most popular model, the 3D-Bee Platinum and the industry's first live video 2D to glasses-free 3D converter called 3D-Bee Ultimate was introduced at CES 2012. At E3 we will be showcasing our newest model which we excpet to be our most popular model, the 3D-Bee Diamond with all new stunning depth & popout capabilities for the technical 3D gamer. Also showing will be our game-designer/movie-studio/broadcast realtime 2D to 3D video editing software/hardware system with realtime 3D playback rendering and keyframe editing. VEFXi 3D is going to knock your socks off!


http://www.mapyourshow.com/shows/index.cfm?Show_ID=E312


not sure if this has been posted before
Rösti
Member
(04-23-2012, 08:48 PM)
Rösti's Avatar

Originally Posted by NeoGohan

Role-Playing> Nintendo Wii U > Deep Silver Inc.

(Risen??)

3D Development > Nintendo Wii U > VEFXi




http://www.mapyourshow.com/shows/index.cfm?Show_ID=E312


not sure if this has been posted before

It has been posted plenty of times, by me. At least the exhibitor listing, not the press release though. Nevertheless it's nice that you bring it up.

I have that page bookmarked.
AceBandage
Banned
(04-23-2012, 08:48 PM)
AceBandage's Avatar

Originally Posted by GameplayWhore

Yes, but I think this group are populated with fans of IdeaMan and AceBandage's brief conversation in which it became rather clear that the former was certain that the retail version of the system would have greater than 1.5GB memory. Many people have believed this so hard that anything less than 2GB would be a travesty.

Well the question becomes. Is that 1.5 the total or is it just what devs can use.
-Pyromaniac-
(04-23-2012, 08:49 PM)
-Pyromaniac-'s Avatar

Originally Posted by VAPitts

i really hope your trolling


Originally Posted by EloquentM

This statement always has and continues to bother me to this very day. The only thing dark souls does better than modern Zelda's in comparison to classic Zelda is a sense of discovery, enemy encounters, and difficulty (this games difficulty only appeals to a specific niche audience in the first place and has no place in any general modern gaming single player environment) . I mean it doesn't even have well thought out puzzles or clever dungeon design, staples of the zelda franchise from the first game up until now.

I'm praying he is.


Originally Posted by ShockingAlberto

They seem pretty incomparable but I can already tell this is going to be an awful conversation so I'll just drop it right here.

lol dat heatt.

First dude: I'm not trolling, mostly, sort of. I am but only because there is a truth to it.

Second dude (elequent) and Third dude (Alberto): I am speaking strictly on presentation. The way the game is presented to the player, the way the dungeons are presented to players, the way the overworld is presented, the way EVERYTHING in the game is presented to the player I think the edge belongs to Dark Souls.

To me Dark Souls is almost how I want Zelda to be. I say almost because I still want Zelda to remain Zelda, that goes to what elequent was saying, I still want clever puzzles, and all that other zelda charm that goes along with being a zelda game. I never want/expect that to go away. But man, having a Zelda game with all the zelda charms, in a world like dark souls (and no I don't mean dark and difficult), I mean a very large world that is filled with things for Link to discover whether it's weapons, more hearts, or whatever else, loads of hidden bosses or little mini bosses sprinkled throughout, seamless travel between different areas, dungeons being more incorporated with the overall world of the game. Make me feel like Link is on an adventure/journey. Obviously I don't expect no handholding whatsoever, but less is the start of many things they could do better.

I find it hard to believe that anyone here can argue that the way Zelda is presented to the player can't be better. It can be a LOT better.

Some of you assume I mean to make zelda some dark ass fucking difficult ass loot filled extravaganza of a game, but I'm not, I strictly mean presentation. That idea of beginning > dungeon to dungeon to dungeon > end of game.

Originally Posted by Cabbie

The underlying point being that it should become more western.

not mine one bit
Last edited by -Pyromaniac-; 04-23-2012 at 08:51 PM.
Fourth Storm
Member
(04-23-2012, 08:50 PM)
Fourth Storm's Avatar

Originally Posted by GameplayWhore

Yes, but I think this group are populated with fans of IdeaMan and AceBandage's brief conversation in which it became rather clear that the former was certain that the retail version of the system would have greater than 1.5GB memory. Many people have believed this so hard that anything less than 2GB would be a travesty.

If they're using DDR3, it probably would be. They'd need a certain amount of chips to secure a bandwidth which even matches the 360's, so the more RAM they add in, the better the potential bandwidth. GDDR3/GDDR5 would be a different story...
Deguello
Member
(04-23-2012, 08:51 PM)
Deguello's Avatar

Originally Posted by Cabbie

The underlying point being that it should become more western.

Honestly, I have no idea how to make something more "western," because that's another one of those tricky definitions no one ever pins down exactly, which then leaves me no choice but to resort to stereotypes.

This also furthers my belief that "eastern" will be the new "casual."
ShockingAlberto
Member
(04-23-2012, 08:51 PM)
ShockingAlberto's Avatar

Originally Posted by Deguello

Honestly, I have no idea how to make something more "western," because that's another one of those tricky definitions no one ever pins down exactly, which then resorts to stereotypes.

Deguello
Member
(04-23-2012, 08:53 PM)
Deguello's Avatar

Originally Posted by ShockingAlberto

Well, yeah, that's one definition! Like does "western" mean cowboys? Grizzled white 30-something hardcases? Military porn?

Or is it just location? Like, Retro has very frequent conferences with Nintendo in Japan. Typically, Retro makes games very similarly to EAD in a lot of respects. Is it just location then? And if it is, is there some sort of Longitude where "eastern" ends and "western" begins?
Last edited by Deguello; 04-23-2012 at 08:58 PM.
blu
Member
(04-23-2012, 08:53 PM)
blu's Avatar

Originally Posted by BGBW

Or tells IGN to go away because he only talks to the real press. HA HA!

That's trivial. He should go for the ultimate nintendo executive test - he books a business talk with Balmer, and when the other party arrives Shibata just unzips, whips it out and encourages the other party to get straight to business. Like a boss.
GameplayWhore
Member
(04-23-2012, 08:54 PM)
GameplayWhore's Avatar

Originally Posted by Fourth Storm

If they're using DDR3, it probably would be. They'd need a certain amount of chips to secure a bandwidth which even matches the 360's, so the more RAM they add in, the better the potential bandwidth. GDDR3/GDDR5 would be a different story...

Do you think it would be worth it for Nintendo to skimp on memory costs (by way of using the older memory type) then increase cache sizes to compensate for the lost performance?
Redford
aka Cabbie
(04-23-2012, 08:55 PM)
Redford's Avatar

Originally Posted by -Pyromaniac-

lol dat heatt.



I find it hard to believe that anyone here can argue that the way Zelda is presented to the player can't be better. It can be a LOT better.

Some of you assume I mean to make zelda some dark ass fucking difficult ass loot filled extravaganza of a game, but I'm not, I strictly mean presentation. That idea of beginning > dungeon to dungeon to dungeon > end of game.

So production value. I don't think Zelda needs to be "like" anything, it just needs a (big) bump in production value.

And I mean PV in the sense you do, with a more detailed overworld that I think Aunoma's dev team simply isn't capable of. Or maybe it was the fault of the Wii hardware, I don't know. Hopefully I can be proven wrong.


Originally Posted by -Pyromaniac-


not mine one bit

Yes, it is. Don't backpeddle.

(And yes, I'm quite aware that DS is an eastern-developed game. It still has western elements)
Last edited by Redford; 04-23-2012 at 08:59 PM.
-Pyromaniac-
(04-23-2012, 08:57 PM)
-Pyromaniac-'s Avatar

Originally Posted by Cabbie


Yes, it is. Don't backpeddle.

no it's not, did I ever say that? You're the one who said it not me. I don't even know what the fuck making something more western means. To me Dark Souls is an RPG made by a japanese developer and nothing more. I choose not to label. In fact if you've seen me post in the past I've stated that I disliked a lot of western made RPGs because I found them to be a tad bland/generic. Which is why I made a point of the fact that I love the Zelda charm.
HylianTom
would totally do this old lady if his wife were guaranteed not to find out.
(04-23-2012, 08:59 PM)
HylianTom's Avatar
I just want Zelda's world to less resemble a Habitrail cage. Fewer trails/tunnels/tracks from one area to another, more of an open world where I can get lost once again. This isn't about being more or less like Elder Scrolls; this is about being more like the original Zelda and Link to the Past and the Wind Waker titles.

Imagine one area being Kakariko, one area being Lake Hylia, etc etc.
Dreamwriter
Member
(04-23-2012, 09:00 PM)
Dreamwriter's Avatar

Originally Posted by EloquentM

This statement always has and continues to bother me to this very day. The only thing dark souls does better than modern Zelda's in comparison to classic Zelda is a sense of discovery

Which to me is the #1 feature a Zelda game MUST have. Without that, it's just not Zelda to me. And Skyward Sword didn't have that.
Fourth Storm
Member
(04-23-2012, 09:02 PM)
Fourth Storm's Avatar

Originally Posted by GameplayWhore

Do you think it would be worth it for Nintendo to skimp on memory costs (by way of using the older memory type) then increase cache sizes to compensate for the lost performance?

That's hard for me to say, especially without knowing the exact amount of L1/L2 and how the eDRAM will be integrated. Will the eDRAM be on it's own die as in the 360 (probably)? Or will it be on the actual GPU chip, as IBM accomplished on POWER7 (although that's a different context, of course, saying nothing of if their relationship w/ AMD is that good.) Depending on which way they go, the eDRAM's bandwidth could be anywhere from great to amazing.

I'd assume Nintendo is increasing cache size and adding the eDRAM to ensure a super low-latency system-wide. I'm not knowledgeable enough to say if that would make up for a lack of bandwidth in the main RAM pool.
Cheesecakebobby
Member
(04-23-2012, 09:02 PM)
Cheesecakebobby's Avatar

Originally Posted by HylianTom

I just want Zelda's world to less resemble a Habitrail cage. Fewer trails/tunnels/tracks from one area to another, more of an open world where I can get lost once again. This isn't about being more or less like Elder Scrolls; this is about being more like the original Zelda and Link to the Past and the Wind Waker titles.

Imagine one area being Kakariko, one area being Lake Hylia, etc etc.

You've just inadvertently come up with an amazing Wii U peripheral.

YOUR HAMSTER IS THE CONTROLLER
-Pyromaniac-
(04-23-2012, 09:02 PM)
-Pyromaniac-'s Avatar

Originally Posted by Dreamwriter

Which to me is the #1 feature a Zelda game MUST have. Without that, it's just not Zelda to me. And Skyward Sword didn't have that.

I was gonna mention, he scoffed it off like "the only thing it doesn't have is blahblah" when those very things are AMAZING.

To me the best part about Dark Souls is just running through that world. Seamlessly visiting different dungeons, some I'm clearly not even close to being ready for, but being able to check it out anyway, seeing all these monsters, finding all these items that will help me along my way. Finding new routes, shortcuts, other cool things. It's excellent.

The Zelda universe has so much charm to offer, I just wish they let it explodeeeee.
Redford
aka Cabbie
(04-23-2012, 09:03 PM)
Redford's Avatar

Originally Posted by -Pyromaniac-

no it's not, did I ever say that? You're the one who said it not me. I don't even know what the fuck making something more western means. To me Dark Souls is an RPG made by a japanese developer and nothing more. I choose not to label. In fact if you've seen me post in the past I've stated that I disliked a lot of western made RPGs because I found them to be a tad bland/generic. Which is why I made a point of the fact that I love the Zelda charm.

Whatever, sounds an awful lot like what people say when they want Zelda to "grow up" like western games.

For the record, I'm simply criticizing the notion in the industry. I don't want Zelda to be "westernized," whatever that would entail.
-Pyromaniac-
(04-23-2012, 09:05 PM)
-Pyromaniac-'s Avatar

Originally Posted by Cabbie

Whatever, sounds an awful lot like what people say when they want Zelda to "grow up" like western games.

For the record, I'm simply criticizing the notion in the industry. I don't want Zelda to be "westernized," whatever that would entail.

I don't want zelda to grow up at all, I don't even think it's kiddy or anything so that's not what I'm saying. I just feel like they can take Zelda and that beginning > dungeon > dungeon > ... > end formula to new heights by making each of those points grander and better presented to us.
BGBW
Maturity, bitches.
(04-23-2012, 09:05 PM)
BGBW's Avatar


What the industry needs more of.
TheCongressman1
Member
(04-23-2012, 09:05 PM)
TheCongressman1's Avatar

Originally Posted by Cabbie

So production value. I don't think Zelda needs to be "like" anything, it just needs a (big) bump in production value.

And I mean PV in the sense you do, with a more detailed overworld that I think Aunoma's dev team simply isn't capable of. Or maybe it was the fault of the Wii hardware, I don't know. Hopefully I can be proven wrong.

Production value would certainly be nice, but that's not the issue, it has to do with the way the world is structured.
-Pyromaniac-
(04-23-2012, 09:06 PM)
-Pyromaniac-'s Avatar

Originally Posted by TheCongressman1

Production value would certainly be nice, but that's not the issue, it has to do with the way the world is structured.

exactly what I mean for the most part
EloquentM
aka Mannny
(04-23-2012, 09:06 PM)
EloquentM's Avatar
has anyone played wind waker?


edit: btw, I understand your sentiments pyro. I just don't see it though. I see Dark souls as a standalone title in itself. It borrows many game mechanics from a variety of different games and genres but as a complete package, to me, it in no way resembles zelda
Last edited by EloquentM; 04-23-2012 at 09:09 PM.
DragonKnight
Member
(04-23-2012, 09:07 PM)
DragonKnight's Avatar
So what should we be expecting from this investor meeting? One would think that with all these "analysts" downlplaying the power of the WiiU and its inability to take a decent chunk of the market, one would think that nintendo would focus on dispelling these claims.

Edit: If I was an investor that would be what I'd like to hear
bgassassin
Member
(04-23-2012, 09:07 PM)
bgassassin's Avatar

Originally Posted by AzaK

So bg, if you're saying your predictions about specs were right, I assume that means 1.5GB RAM? Bummer. What else did you predict? Please just tell us and don't be an Ideaman (Assuming you're allowed)

And HylianTom, dud you become privvy to info too?

Remember that 1.5GB was also back in like June/July. It is very plausible that amount has changed by now.
Plinko
Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
(04-23-2012, 09:07 PM)
Plinko's Avatar

Originally Posted by EloquentM

has anyone played wind waker?

Yes, and I'd love to play it again and show my 4-year old son but it is $35 used.

I'm fairly confident Nintendo will release GC games on their Wii U VC at some point so I'll just wait.
-Pyromaniac-
(04-23-2012, 09:08 PM)
-Pyromaniac-'s Avatar

Originally Posted by bgassassin

Remember that 1.5GB was also back in like June/July. It is very plausible that amount has changed by now.

aka it has changed, thanks for the confirmation. Glad to get 2 gigs.

Originally Posted by EloquentM

has anyone played wind waker?

yes, LOVE that game.
Gravijah
Member
(04-23-2012, 09:08 PM)
Gravijah's Avatar

Originally Posted by EloquentM

has anyone played wind waker?

i played it for a bit but the dungeons sucked. i'll give it another chance on the wii u.
DragonKnight
Member
(04-23-2012, 09:08 PM)
DragonKnight's Avatar

Originally Posted by bgassassin

Remember that 1.5GB was also back in like June/July. It is very plausible that amount has changed by now.

Nice. I'm expecting more. At least 2.0GB. What else were you on point about?

Edit: From last June? Jesus. That must mean that Nintendo really has been listening to developers. BG. Be straight up. Any hope for UE4?
Last edited by DragonKnight; 04-23-2012 at 09:11 PM.
HylianTom
would totally do this old lady if his wife were guaranteed not to find out.
(04-23-2012, 09:09 PM)
HylianTom's Avatar

Originally Posted by EloquentM

has anyone played wind waker?

It's my absolute favorite one!
I even bought a second (backup) GBA-SP to act as my Tingle Tuner, I love it that much. <3
BGBW
Maturity, bitches.
(04-23-2012, 09:09 PM)
BGBW's Avatar

Originally Posted by DragonKnight

So what should we be expecting from this investor meeting? One would think that with all these "analysts" downlplaying the power of the WiiU and its inability to take a decent chunk of the market, one would think that nintendo would focus on dispelling these claims.

I expect people to ask silly questions, polite answers from Iwata and pie charts.
Door2Dawn
Banned
(04-23-2012, 09:09 PM)
Door2Dawn's Avatar

Originally Posted by bgassassin

Remember that 1.5GB was also back in like June/July. It is very plausible that amount has changed by now.

10UB confirmed.
EloquentM
aka Mannny
(04-23-2012, 09:10 PM)
EloquentM's Avatar

Originally Posted by Gravijah

i played it for a bit but the dungeons sucked.

I'm afraid there's a price to pay for that sense of discovery ={
BurntPork
Banned
(04-23-2012, 09:10 PM)
BurntPork's Avatar

Originally Posted by AzaK

So bg, if you're saying your predictions about specs were right, I assume that means 1.5GB RAM? Bummer. What else did you predict? Please just tell us and don't be an Ideaman (Assuming you're allowed)

And HylianTom, dud you become privvy to info too?

Bummer? How much were you expecting?
Fourth Storm
Member
(04-23-2012, 09:10 PM)
Fourth Storm's Avatar

Originally Posted by DragonKnight

So what should we be expecting from this investor meeting? One would think that with all these "analysts" downlplaying the power of the WiiU and its inability to take a decent chunk of the market, one would think that nintendo would focus on dispelling these claims.

Edit: If I was an investor that would be what I'd like to hear

I hope they at least acknowledge it, however I expect something like this:

"As you understand, revealing specific details today will reduce our ability to 'surprise' our audience and put us at a competitive disadvantage. We ask you to kindly wait until e3 for more information regarding Wii U's capabilities."

Or perhaps:

"We showed some footage of what an HD Zelda title has the possibility of looking like on WiiU, and we have not heard anyone who has said that they were not satisfied with the graphics."
-Pyromaniac-
(04-23-2012, 09:11 PM)
-Pyromaniac-'s Avatar

Originally Posted by EloquentM

I'm afraid there's a price to pay for that sense of discovery ={

dungeons in dark souls are pretty nuts. Minus the framrate in some areas lulolol.

There is a way to have both. Just need to put in the work. Now nintendo has the power and disk space to go wild.
DragonKnight
Member
(04-23-2012, 09:12 PM)
DragonKnight's Avatar

Originally Posted by EloquentM

has anyone played wind waker?


edit: btw, I understand your sentiments pyro. I just don't see it though. I see Dark souls as a standalone title in itself. It borrows many game mechanics from a variety of different games and genres but as a complete package, to me, it in no way resembles zelda

It would be the greatest Zelda game if they would have just added in the scrapped content. ALTTP has the top spot for now.
DragonKnight
Member
(04-23-2012, 09:13 PM)
DragonKnight's Avatar
Fuck Iwata. He's the same dude that told me that i'd say wow. I didn't.
Deguello
Member
(04-23-2012, 09:14 PM)
Deguello's Avatar

Originally Posted by Cabbie

Whatever, sounds an awful lot like what people say when they want Zelda to "grow up" like western games.

For the record, I'm simply criticizing the notion in the industry. I don't want Zelda to be "westernized," whatever that would entail.

I think an unfortunate danger of such an action would that it would clearly be seen as such a "me too" move and could in fact endanger the series. There's something to be said for stasis, which is why Super Mario has survived, as it hasn't bastardized itself to shamelessly appeal to a new demographic, like his one time rival Sonic. If you want a clearcut dichotomy between the two, when Mario had a spinoff series in the form of Luigi's Mansion, Luigi enters a cartoon haunted mansion to suck up cartoon haunted ghosts with a vacuum cleaner. When Sonic had a spinoff series (well, game) in Shadow the Hedgehog, "Sonic" rolled in whips and popped caps into domes with gats.

If Super Mario had done similar and stuck with, say, the gritty realism of the film version, then we may not even have Super Mario to discuss.
Rösti
Member
(04-23-2012, 09:14 PM)
Rösti's Avatar

Originally Posted by Door2Dawn

10UB confirmed.

Do you mean µB (as in microbyte)? Just curious, as I don't see what U could stand for besides that.

As for what the Wii U will actually incorporate when it comes to memory I think something between 768 MB to 2 GB is feasible, and hopefully there will be ways to add memory in some way (as the Nintendo 64 Expansion Pak perhaps). As for what type they'll use I haven't got the slightest clue due to the fact I find it very strange they abandoned the 1T-SRAM technology from MoSys. What subsitute could there be that would fit Wii U in all aspects (including backwards compatibility)?
Last edited by Rösti; 04-23-2012 at 09:17 PM.

Thread Tools