[Instro]

With regards to the Zelda discussion, I think the biggest thing plaguing the series is presentation and hand-holding. Particularly with the latter, you have people talking about how there's no sense of discovery and so on, but making the game open world or designing it like Darks Souls would be for naught if you have a partner who tells you what to do and where to go constantly.

I mean you look at the dungeons in Skyward Sword and it is some of the best level design you will ever find in gaming, yet its crippled by certain elements that keep the series feeling a bit archaic. The Zelda team clearly has the skill to do amazing things but I think they are being held back for whatever reason.

[Anth0ny]

Linearity isn't necessarily a negative quality, and he said with the current team. I'd rather have a high polish, "linear" Zelda than another attempt like TP and SS to some extent.

but that was skyward sword

You literally can't enter the next area until you finish a dungeon and the giant ray of light appears for you to drop into

You don't fix the pacing by making it more linear. You do it by cutting 80% of the useless fucking dialogue, tutorials, partner characters and cutscenes the game forces onto you.

[BurntPork]

These Zelda arguments are useless. It's always Zelda 1 fans vs 3D Zelda fans vs random weird person...

[Redford]

but that was skyward sword You literally can't enter the next area until you finish a dungeon and the giant ray of light appears for you to drop into You don't fix the pacing by making it more linear. You do it by cutting 80% of the useless fucking dialogue, tutorials, partner characters and cutscenes the game forces onto you.

Well, I was sort of thinking "fix useless bullshit" when I typed polish, so you're right. I'm just saying, like Cerebral, that the game should set out to be the best damn linear game there is, if that's the way it has to be. And not attempt to throw in half-hearted open-world exploration if the team doesn't have the capacity to do it properly.

[TheCongressman1]

You don't fix the pacing by making it more linear. You do it by cutting 80% of the useless fucking dialogue, tutorials, partner characters and cutscenes the game forces onto you.

Yes, this is the fat that needs to be trimmed, not the exploration.

These Zelda arguments are useless. It's always Zelda 1 fans vs 3D Zelda fans vs random weird person...

There's no need to be put into categories like that. I'm a fan of the series as a whole, but I think it could certainly be improved.

[guek]

Linearity isn't necessarily a negative quality, and he said with the current team. I'd rather have a high polish, "linear" Zelda than another attempt like TP and SS to some extent.

I don't think there was anything wrong with SS other than it needed MORE content. There should have been at least one other major sky town, more side quests, the ability to fly at night, areas connecting each ground segment, probably at least 1 more ground area with another dungeon (cut out one of the fights with the forsaken and one of the sacred realms at the same time). More things to explore, because as a whole SS feels claustrophobic.

But I'm one of the few people who found just about everything that was actually in the game to be enjoyable (with the exception of fi and the constant alerts). I didn't even mind the tadtones!

But I definitely don't want another repeat of SS exactly in the next zelda. I think SS was a fantastic experiment in game design. I think they should take the lessons they learned in making such a radically different zelda and incorporate them into a much more traditionally designed zelda such as TP.

[Rösti]

but that was skyward sword You literally can't enter the next area until you finish a dungeon and the giant ray of light appears for you to drop into

Actually you can, but it's a bit tricky and even if you get to a certain area (Lake Floria in my example) ahead of what is intended it's very difficult, though possible, to progress into a temple or other important story area.

I noticed that if you enter Lake Floria before you obtain the Water Dragon's Scale, the usual scripts for the Parella named Jellyf do not trigger. You can with a lot of devotion dive without that scale but you usually get stuck and have to rest the game.

[Agent Unknown]

Lherre said it was likely more than 1. Not sure why 1.5 is "frightening". That was always my guess and made the most sense. The PS4 is likely not to have much more, honestly.

Ah good to know I was over thinking that, will leave the worrying to more spec savvy folks next time. :p

[Redford]

Yes, this is the fat that needs to be trimmed, not the exploration.

No, they shouldn't even bother with it until the series is passed on to someone else. The fetch-quests are awful and I can't see them having a renaissance in that regard.

[Deguello]

but that was skyward sword You literally can't enter the next area until you finish a dungeon and the giant ray of light appears for you to drop into You don't fix the pacing by making it more linear. You do it by cutting 80% of the useless fucking dialogue, tutorials, partner characters and cutscenes the game forces onto you.

Weren't there several dungeons in the NES that you couldn't enter until you had, say, the raft. Or the hammer in the case of Zelda II? I'm not understanding the difference.

[HylianTom]

I can see a scenario where the PS4 has 3GB RAM, the 720 has 4GB, and third parties begin the whole, "sorry, uhh.. our game requires at least 3GB RAM" routine..

[Fourth Storm]

Does anybody have a link to the technical discussion a thread or two back about why exactly greater than 2GB unified memory is not possible (without massive sacrifices) given current technological limitations? I recall it was something like "On a board, you can run up to eight chips, and the upper limit for the chips is currently 256MB", but I'd like clarification here from the techies. :)

I think I was involved in that one, and it motivated me to do a bit more research regarding DDR3 bandwidth, since I was embarrassingly wrong w/ my calculations. For cost reasons, DDR3 seemed like a decent bet at the time (and still does, especially w/ Elpida's bankruptcy predicted to drive up DRAM prices).

I don't believe it was established that greater than 2 GB unified was impossible. For cost reasons, it seems unlikely.

The issue was the number of DDR3 chips it would take to achieve a decent bandwidth. To simplify things a great deal, each RAM chip has an interface of 4-bit, 8-bit, 16-bit, etc. Up until recently (or perhaps it is still the case), the only DDR3 available topped out at 2Gb (256 MB) and had a 16-bit interface. This would mean that a whopping 8 chips would be needed if they wanted 2GB of DDR3 RAM w/ bandwidth that was comparable to the 360.

I've done a little hunting, though, and it seems like Micron, at least, is currently sampling 32-bit DDR3 chips with a 4Gb (512 MB) density. That would allow Nintendo to use only 4 chips, but would still leave the bandwidth comparable to the 360. It's speculated that this issue could potentially be alleviated by the large L2 cache and eDRAM on the GPU, but I have yet to read anything which goes into detail explaining how.

http://www.micron.com/products/dram/...3-part-catalog

[Agent Unknown]

I can see a scenario where the PS4 has 3GB RAM, the 720 has 4GB, and third parties begin the whole, "sorry, uhh.. our game requires at least 3GB RAM" routine..

MS will obviously give them whatever they want but after the "Fight of their lives" NY Times article, Sony better think twice this time if they have an ounce of common sense any more.

[Plinko]

He's heavily hinting that the amount has changed. I'm saying 2.0GB at least and if nintendo has been buddying up with third parties, perhaps even more.

I think you're reading too much into his comment. He may not know how much it has now.

[Fourth Storm]

I can see a scenario where the PS4 has 3GB RAM, the 720 has 4GB, and third parties begin the whole, "sorry, uhh.. our game requires at least 3GB RAM" routine..

I have a feeling that at least Microsoft is going for Hybrid Memory Cube (HMC). In which case, it will blow everything else out of the water.

[guek]

I think you're reading too much into his comment. He may not know how much it has now.

BG does tend to enjoy hinting at things though, especially when he thinks people aren't paying close attention to what he's saying :-P

[DragonKnight]

I can see a scenario where the PS4 has 3GB RAM, the 720 has 4GB, and third parties begin the whole, "sorry, uhh.. our game requires at least 3GB RAM" routine..

This cannot happen.

[StevieP]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost...ostcount=10151 (thanks, GW)

Cheers, blu!

Does anybody have a link to the technical discussion a thread or two back about why exactly greater than 2GB unified memory is not possible (without massive sacrifices) given current technological limitations? I recall it was something like "On a board, you can run up to eight chips, and the upper limit for the chips is currently 256MB", but I'd like clarification here from the techies. :)

Well going above 2GB with GDDR5 would be difficult/costly/etc due to memory densities on current chips. However, GDDR3 wouldn't factor into that conundrum.

I have a feeling that at least Microsoft is going for Hybrid Memory Cube (HMC). In which case, it will blow everything else out of the water.

Microsoft and complicated motherboards.... ech.

[DragonKnight]

I think you're reading too much into his comment. He may not know how much it has now.

As fellow WiiU thread poster, I don't see why he would tease otherwise.

[Cerebral Assassin]

Yes, this is the fat that needs to be trimmed, not the exploration.

Unless they radically change the way Zelda plays that isn't a realistic goal, Nintendo want more people to play, not less (admittedly they aren't doing a great job in getting people to buy the game, but it makes a good 1st Zelda game). TP had "exploration" but that game only shone in dungeons.

Well, I was sort of thinking "fix useless bullshit" when I typed polish, so you're right. I'm just saying, like Cerebral, that the game should set out to be the best damn linear game there is, if that's the way it has to be. And not attempt to throw in half-hearted open-world exploration if the team doesn't have the capacity to do it properly.

SS was never intended to be "just" a open world game, you were meant to come back to each area & discover new things( & they were fairly successful imo, a couple more areas & the game would have felt packed with content rather than the feeling that too much was recycled).

But I'm one of the few people who found just about everything that was actually in the game to be enjoyable (with the exception of fi and the constant alerts). I didn't even mind the tadtones! But I definitely don't want another repeat of SS exactly in the next zelda. I think SS was a fantastic experiment in game design. I think they should take the lessons they learned in making such a radically different zelda and incorporate them into a much more traditionally designed zelda such as TP.

Am I the only one who thinks (some of) Fi & her comments were deliberately designed to be annoying(as a theme through the whole game is the lack of respect shown towards Link)? The one about "there may be something important behind this door with a giant lock on it" had t have been taking the piss. As for the Tadtones, collecting them was fine, the conversation justifying why you had to do that was foolish.

It's interesting that you think that SS was a radical departure, it seemed to me that they were perhaps not radical enough.

[Smiles and Cries]

Anyone think they'd ever reveal a console post-E3 to circumvent their promise? (not that I would be surprised to see them not honor it)

big reveal of PS4/NextBox during WiiU's launch week believe :3

[AlStrong]

However, GDDR3 wouldn't factor into that conundrum.

GDDR3 topped out at 1Gbit density. Graphics card makers moved onto DDR3/GDDR4/5, so there wasn't any need for >1Gbit development.

DDR3 is a different story.

[Instro]

And don't forget that >512 MB reserved for OS functions. Less RAM than 360 confirmed.

While I realize your joking, it seems like people often get caught up in counting the supposed amount reserved for OS functions. The OS will be iterated on and optimized before and after the console releases, I don't think there is much point to taking it into consideration when we talk about the RAM amount.

[Redford]

SS was never intended to be "just" a open world game, you were meant to come back to each area & discover new things( & they were fairly successful imo, a couple more areas & the game would have felt packed with content rather than the feeling that too much was recycled).

Not saying that it was intended to be, just referring to all future games by Aunoma's team.

Ugh, nothing like a Zelda dispute to drain your argumentation craving.

[Plinko]

As fellow WiiU thread poster, I don't see why he would tease otherwise.

I guess I just didn't take it as a "tease." All he was saying is that it could have changed since June/July. Perhaps that is the last time he had heard anything?

[StevieP]

GDDR3 topped out at 1Gbit density. Graphics card makers moved onto DDR3/GDDR4/5, so there wasn't any need for >1Gbit. DDR3 is a different story.

What I mean is that I believe Nintendo is using GDDR3 in the Wii U. I could be wrong, but I don't think we'll see DDR3 or GDDR5 unless there is some split thing going on. I obviously do not share the optimism that they'll go 2GB or up, but I've been wrong before.

[Fourth Storm]

While I realize your joking, it seems like people often get caught up in counting the supposed amount reserved for OS functions. The OS will be iterated on and optimized before and after the console releases, I don't think there is much point to taking it into consideration when we talk about the RAM amount.

Oh, it'll be optimized and brought down surely. I can't see Nintendo being happy with a bloated OS, unless they do something incredibly out of character and offer cross-game video chat and the like.

[AlStrong]

What I mean is that I believe Nintendo is using GDDR3 in the Wii U. I could be wrong, but I don't think we'll see DDR3 or GDDR5 unless there is some split thing going on.

What's wrong with DDR3?

[Anth0ny]

Weren't there several dungeons in the NES that you couldn't enter until you had, say, the raft. Or the hammer in the case of Zelda II? I'm not understanding the difference.

No?

You needed the raft to access 1 dungeon in Zelda I. Every other screen on the map was accessible as soon as you turned on the NES.

You get the hammer after Death Mountain in Zelda II, which, for all intents and purposes, is the second dungeon of the game. You now have access to the entirety of Western Hyrule. After the fourth palace, you get the raft, and access to the entire map.

Even before the hammer, there's a solid amount of overworld, towns and caves to check out, not to mention leveling up and getting the hang of the combat system. Skyward Sword is comically linear and there is barely anything worth exploring over the entire game, let alone before the first dungeon.

[Fourth Storm]

Hybrid_Memory_Cube.jpg Microsoft and complicated motherboards.... ech.

That's what it looks like irl? Yikes, Micron/IBM's diagrams made it seem so much more...elegant. What's w/ the plastic around it?

[Cerebral Assassin]

Not saying that it was intended to be, just referring to all future games by Aunoma's team. Ugh, nothing like a Zelda dispute to drain your argumentation craving.

I wasn't arguing with you, just trying to show that Nintendo agree with you.

[Instro]

Am I the only one who thinks (some of) Fi & her comments were deliberately designed to be annoying(as a theme through the whole game is the lack of respect shown towards Link)? The one about "there may be something important behind this door with a giant lock on it" had t have been taking the piss. As for the Tadtones, collecting them was fine, the conversation justifying why you had to do that was foolish.

To some degree. I think the issue with Fi is that her deadpan and somewhat annoying/disrespectful personality is completely lost in between mountains of dialouge that only serve to tell the player what to do.

With regards to the Tadtones, I enjoyed gathering them but the reason for doing so is stupid. This ties back in the presentation issues that are currently a problem for the series.

[Red Arremer]

WiiU will sell only 35% as much as Wii (which had the most disappointing specs ever) because they think it'll have disappointing specs? Do these analysts all try hard to be morons?

Yes.

Amazing Tweet from Saturo Shibata (NoE): https://twitter.com/#!/NintendoEurop...66193623629825 LOL!

[Anth0ny]

Am I the only one who thinks (some of) Fi & her comments were deliberately designed to be annoying(as a theme through the whole game is the lack of respect shown towards Link)? The one about "there may be something important behind this door with a giant lock on it" had t have been taking the piss. As for the Tadtones, collecting them was fine, the conversation justifying why you had to do that was foolish. It's interesting that you think that SS was a radical departure, it seemed to me that they were perhaps not radical enough.

What a great idea! It's not like Navi was universally despised for her 1 second voice clips and single boxes of dialogue every now and then... lets take Navi and turn that shit up to 11!

[BurntPork]

What's wrong with DDR3?

High latency at low speeds?

By the way, there's something I've been meaning to ask you. Whenever the subject of of the GPU fab comes up, you never mention the possibility of Nintendo choosing NEC like they have for the past two generations and you seem pretty adamant that they'll use TMSC's 40nm. Is there a particular reason for that?

[Rösti]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPA0i...ayer_embedded#!

Yeah, I don't know. ¦¬·

[nordique]

Yikes, now I'm getting scared again. Have any (reasonable) devs hinted at RAM size?

That is still 3x what PS360 have, and weère not even counting the sizeable eDRAM

[wsippel]

I have a feeling that at least Microsoft is going for Hybrid Memory Cube (HMC). In which case, it will blow everything else out of the water.

Highly unlikely. The tech is promising, but not ready. And the first implementations aren't even expected to focus on speed. The immediate goal is to increase density and reduce power consumption.

[Redford]

What a great idea! It's not like Navi was universally despised for her 1 second voice clips and single boxes of dialogue every now and then... lets take Navi and turn that shit up to 11!

Yah, let's not carried away with the rationalizations. If there's one thing Zelda needs, IMO, it's better writing, or rather, less of it.

[-Pyromaniac-]

Navi would be a perfect idea if Zelda were to take place in a much bigger world that is more seamless/grand/open. If the player wanders around too long without really getting anything done, have Navi give a subtle hint about where to attempt going next. I don't mind that level of handholding.

[AceBandage]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPA0i...ayer_embedded#! Yeah, I don't know. ¦¬·

Reminds me of the original Project Cafe "leak" video.

[Deguello]

No? You needed the raft to access 1 dungeon in Zelda I. Every other screen on the map was accessible as soon as you turned on the NES. You get the hammer after Death Mountain in Zelda II, which, for all intents and purposes, is the second dungeon of the game. You now have access to the entirety of Western Hyrule. After the fourth palace, you get the raft, and access to the entire map. Even before the hammer, there's a solid amount of overworld, towns and caves to check out, not to mention leveling up and getting the hang of the combat system. Skyward Sword is comically linear and there is barely anything worth exploring over the entire game, let alone before the first dungeon.

Didn't I say dungeons? Oh wait there were more! You need to flute and the power bracelet to get into some of them! Still seems to me like the game is blocked until you get an arbitrary widget to continue. That's linear as hell.

[Fourth Storm]

Highly unlikely. The tech is promising, but not ready. And the first implementations aren't even expected to focus on speed. The immediate goal is to increase density and reduce power consumption.

Really? Last I read, they were targeting 2013 to roll it out. Time to go back to Google, I suppose. Thanks for steering me back on track.

[Rösti]

Reminds me of the original Project Cafe "leak" video.

There is some audio (in Japanese) in the video, most noticeably starting 0:20. Anyone wanna translate?

[Luigison]

Yes.

Awesome!

[AceBandage]

There is some audio (in Japanese) in the video, most noticeably starting 0:20. Anyone wanna translate?

Sounds like the normal "Thank you for your consideration" or what not that is at the end of commercials.

Awesome!

UHF <3

[BGBW]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPA0i...ayer_embedded#! Yeah, I don't know. ¦¬·

Ointendo

[BY2K]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPA0i...ayer_embedded#! Yeah, I don't know. ¦¬·

To Kotaku!

*Flies away*

[wsippel]

Really? Last I read, they were targeting 2013 to roll it out. Time to go back to Google, I suppose. Thanks for steering me back on track.

Low volume production for high end appliances starting in late 2013, yes. That's the plan. And by "high end", I mean huge ass routers and maybe supercomputers, not toys.

[Vinci]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPA0i...ayer_embedded#! Yeah, I don't know. ¦¬·

What the..?