[TunaLover]

A bit of info concerning the CPU - The instructions set of the CPU, their "routine", is definitively even more advanced and targeted for gaming that the VMX128 included in the Xbox360 Xenon.

I'm not sure how CPU routines works, but it could be possible that it's just the case in which both set of intructions (360/WiiU) works in different way, so it make appears Wii U's routines as more complex because they are new for devs?

- Expect a noticeable lowering of the caches latency (fewer cycles), i assume L1 & L2.

What's cache latency, and what does it means for Wii U overall performance?

[GameplayWhore]

A bit of info concerning the CPU After discussing with a member here about the specificities of the Wii U CPU, and searching on it for a particularity that could constitute an hindrance for some of middleware companies if they don't optimize their product for, i was able to find some vague infos, i can't go too much into details, and it's from a totally different source that the ones i was referring to before. Nothing groundbreaking, but it's a confirmation at least. - The instructions set of the CPU, their "routine", is definitively even more advanced and targeted for gaming that the VMX128 included in the Xbox360 Xenon. - Expect a noticeable lowering of the caches latency (fewer cycles), i assume L1 & L2. It definitively reinforce the fact that Wii U CPU is more modern, efficient, and more powerful overall than the Xbox360 one. You can even ditch the scenario where the Wii U could be a Xenon+10% + not so much powerful GPU, with 1GB of ram, the CPU really seems to constitute an advancement.

Faster caches, hrm. Sometimes that means smaller caches (or, in the case of seven years of advances, caches that could have been larger with the same lateny).

Still, even if it has faster memory access and better extensions, the increase in instructions per clock is not going to be that much faster if it's the same number of cores and a similar clock frequency.

I like this info, though. It is definitely telling us that the system is striving for improvement over previous hardware. :)

[nordique]

Faster caches, hrm. Sometimes that means smaller caches (or, in the case of seven years of advances, caches that could have been larger with the same lateny). Still, even if it has faster memory access and better extensions, the increase in instructions per clock is not going to be that much faster if it's the same number of cores and a similar clock frequency. I like this info, though. It is definitely telling us that the system is striving for improvement over previous hardware. :)

We do have an idea that the L2 cache size is 3x that of the 360's (3MB vs 1MB)

(at least in some version of some devkit that is so)

OoOE may be helping this too. And don't forget the role the seperate I/O and DSP processors have and how they may impact CPU performance

I wonder how much of that is related to what IdeaMan posted

[GameplayWhore]

What's cache latency, and what does it means for Wii U overall performance?

Cache latency is the number of cpu clock ticks it takes between asking for a piece of data and getting it. Caches have copies of some of the system's memory (ideally the most frequently accessed stuff) so that when the system asks for the data, instead of taking much longer to retrieve from memory, it can be obtained from the caches much more quickly.

The lower the cache latency, the faster the data can be accessed. If your next questions is "Well, why don't they just use the cache for the whole memory?", then the answer is (A) cache memory is more expensive on account of being much faster, and (B) if you increase the size of the cache, it can increase the latency of the cache (eg, it'll take longer to search through a bigger cache!).

[GameplayWhore]

We do have an idea that the L2 cache size is 3x that of the 360's (3MB vs 1MB) (at least in some version of some devkit that is so)

Oh, wack, the L2 is substantially larger and faster? I believe the applicable term here is "Yessssssss!".

[IceDoesntHelp]

A bit of info concerning the CPU After discussing with a member here about the specificities of the Wii U CPU, and searching on it for a particularity that could constitute an hindrance for some of middleware companies if they don't optimize their product for, i was able to find some vague infos, i can't go too much into details, and it's from a totally different source that the ones i was referring to before. Nothing groundbreaking, but it's a confirmation at least. - The instructions set of the CPU (their "routine") is definitively even more advanced and targeted for gaming that the VMX128 included in the Xbox360 Xenon. - Expect a noticeable lowering of the caches latency (fewer cycles), i assume L1 & L2. It definitively reinforce the fact that Wii U CPU is more modern, efficient, and more powerful overall than the Xbox360 one. You can even ditch the scenario where the Wii U could be a Xenon+10% + not so much powerful GPU, with 1GB of ram, the CPU really seems to constitute an advancement.

Oh I get it, you get some "news" so I come back. Clever girl.
But this is sweet news.

[AceBandage]

Now we wait for news sites to pick it up...

[axisofweevils]

Wow...
This thread has actual info in it tonight.
Amazing.

[HylianTom]

Now we wait for news sites to pick it up...

You read my thoughts. I'm waiting to see how many of them trumpet it from the rooftops.

*waits*
*waits*
*crickets*

[-Pyromaniac-]

It's the "5th" actually, one of my source called it the V5, lherre here told us it was a different codename, but it's a true next revision following the V4 dev kits that were in the possession of big third-parties until at least march included.

I see, so this is the one with the alleged big jump right? Or at least notable jump...?

[IceDoesntHelp]

You read my thoughts. I'm waiting to see how many of them trumpet it from the rooftops. *waits* *waits* *crickets*

I have a feeling some may have learned their lesson from yesterday.

[Gahiggidy]

Lately, I can't help thinking how amazing a Luigi's Mansion game would look on U. So Lush and atmospheric! Though, I'd sure miss use of the analog triggers from the GCN controller.

[axisofweevils]

Now we wait for news sites to pick it up...

I think they might be wary after the WES business.

[wsippel]

And it's those developers who end up creating games with low quality graphics or poor framerates. A great graphics programmer can really push the hardware working with low level graphics calls compared to some generic game engine designed to work decently for any type of game on multiple platforms. Someone working *directly* with the hardware rather than OpenGL can push it even further, but few developers will go to that effort, and that would end up with a game hard to port to another console.

On 3DS, Nintendo encourages developers to use NintendoWare instead of trying to write their own low level code. They claim NW4C is already that well optimized and fast that whatever a developer ends up writing would probably perform worse. There are still three different APIs ranging from high level (easy to use, high overhead, low performance) over a mid level API (balanced) to a low level API (hard to use, low overhead, high performance) available to developers, and of course direct register access (pain in the ass to use, no overhead, highest possible performance but tons of ways to fuck things up).

[TunaLover]

I like this info, though. It is definitely telling us that the system is striving for improvement over previous hardware. :)

Yeah, it seems they are targeting in build a beatiful architecture again, making every component interacts with minimal bottlenecks each other, and maximizing its performance.

[Wiseblade]

I knew lurking this thread would pay off!

[HylianTom]

Yeah, it seems they are targeting in build a beatiful architecture again, making every component interacts with minimal bottlenecks each other, and maximizing its performance.

I wonder how the idea that fewer developers try to eeek out every bit of performance of hardware has influenced their design decisions.

[BurntPork]

I have a feeling some may have learned their lesson from yesterday.

Well, even the mods don't trust this thread anymore, so I wouldn't be surprised.

[Wiseblade]

I wonder how the idea that fewer developers try to eeek out every bit of performance of hardware has influenced their design decisions.

There's only two way to take it:

"Then we should make it easier to access the full power of the console! Off the shelf parts for everyone!"

or

"Screw them if they can't put in the effort. If we can get the results we want, then that's good enough.

[IdeaMan]

I see, so this is the one with the alleged big jump right? Or at least notable jump...?

The "big" jump (but not as huge that some have thought from what i've heard) was present in the V4 dev kits (the one in possession of third-party at least since late last year, don't know if they were available before). There's a slight improvement in the V5 ones. It could just be tweaking, refinements, optimizations. Still, these differences of capabilities were "benchmarked", so even if an engine has its framerate increase by only 5fps in a different dev kit, this tiny gain doesn't exclude the possibility that they come from noticeable changes in the components.

[-Pyromaniac-]

The pretty noticeable jump (but not as huge that some have thought from what i've heard) was present in the V4 dev kits (the one in possession of third-party at least since late last year, don't know if they were available before). There's a slight improvement in the V5 ones. It could just be tweaking, refinements, optimizations. Still, these differences of capabilities were "benchmarked", so even if an engine has its framerate increasing by only 5fps in a different dev kit, this tiny gain doesn't exclude the possibility that they come from noticeable changes in the components.

I see I see, thanks.

[GameplayWhore]

I have a feeling some may have learned their lesson from yesterday.

I think it's just that more technical information is less sexy than "ZOMGBIG SIMPLE THING!"

[axisofweevils]

I think it's just that more technical information is less sexy than "ZOMGBIG SIMPLE THING!"

Harder to search for on Twitter too.

[IdeaMan]

I think it's just that more technical information is less sexy than "ZOMGBIG SIMPLE THING!"

Well, it was a bit in answer to a post talking about SIMD, i thought it was a good time to write this, and i'm testing the "without annoying teasing" approach by the way, but i find it less funny :(

[-Pyromaniac-]

Well, it was in answer to a post talking about SIMD, i thought it was a good time to write this, and i test the "without annoying teasing" approach by the way, but i find it less funny :(

but so peaceful!

[Always-honest]

Is it possible that the console will have anti aliassing like the 360?

[AceBandage]

Is it possible that the console will have anti aliassing like the 360?

It should be capable of better AA.

[TunaLover]

I wonder how the idea that fewer developers try to eeek out every bit of performance of hardware has influenced their design decisions.

I don't think it has influenced too much to be honest, they used this same philosophy for GCN.
Anyway, if third parties use the hardware similar as Nintendo does, the games will look great, I bet Nintendo will be more open to share info about how get more juice out the system, as always it's up 3rd parties use it or not.

[Always-honest]

It should be capable of better AA.

I hope so.

[GameplayWhore]

Well, it was a bit in answer to a post talking about SIMD, i thought it was a good time to write this, and i'm testing the "without annoying teasing" approach by the way, but i find it less funny :(

Eh, you can mix it up a bit. I liked having this out of the blue, though. We really need as much intellectual recharge as possible to recover from the WEStastrophe.

In general terms, I really like that this gives the impression that Nintendo is working closely on the cpu, not just bolting in something that happens to sort of already be around but checks the desired cost and performance boxes.

[EDarkness]

I hope so.

Even if it could, doesn't mean devs will use it. As a matter of fact we should all assume they won't. Kind of how we shouldn't expect them to go for 60FPS. More effects will trump that stuff most of the time.

[lordfroakie]

It should be capable of better AAAA.

fixed :p

[TunaLover]

Supposedly Nintendo has been working in this custom CPU for some time, it was obvious that they had big input in the process. It can't be compared directly with CPUs availables in the market.

[AceBandage]

Supposedly Nintendo has been working in this custom CPU for some time, it was obvious that they had big input in the process.

Both the CPU and GPU will be highly custom.

[GameplayWhore]

Both the CPU and GPU will be highly custom.

It's just nice to hear details that hedge towards confirming it, since the last console gen they did not do much in the way of crazy custom hardware.

[AceBandage]

It's just nice to hear details that hedge towards confirming it, since the last console gen they did not do much in the way of crazy custom hardware.

No, the Wii was still highly customized parts. It was just nearly a decade old custom parts.

[GameplayWhore]

No, the Wii was still highly customized parts. It was just nearly a decade old custom parts.

Okay, I'll bite. What did they do for, say, the cpu on the Wii? It doesn't look too different going from Gekko to Broadway. It seems they have the same cache configuration, and a brief look doesn't find any additional extensions to the ISA. It really just looks like they took the same chip and upclocked it on a new process tech.

[AceBandage]

Okay, I'll bite. What did they do for, say, the cpu on the Wii? It doesn't look too different going from Broadway to Gecko. It seems they have the same cache configuration, and a brief look doesn't find any additional extensions to the ISA. It really just looks like they took the same chip and upclocked it on a new process tech.

Well, that's what I'm saying.
They were still custom parts, just not specifically made for the Wii.
:P

[wsippel]

Okay, I'll bite. What did they do for, say, the cpu on the Wii? It doesn't look too different going from Gekko to Broadway. It seems they have the same cache configuration, and a brief look doesn't find any additional extensions to the ISA. It really just looks like they took the same chip and upclocked it on a new process tech.

It's still basically the same (already customized) chip, but a few internals were actually redesigned to make them more efficient.

[Smiles and Cries]

the Wii's parts is really troublesome to think about what Nintendo's goals were here

were they really focussing on extremely cheap and efficient small box?

[AceBandage]

the Wii's parts is really troublesome to think about what Nintendo's goals were here were they really focussing on extremely cheap and efficient small box?

Their thinking was that, by making a system that was just like something that devs had already made good use of, that dev costs would stay down and help the industry.

[Smiles and Cries]

Their thinking was that, by making a system that was just like something that devs had already made good use of, that dev costs would stay down and help the industry.

its not like they had so much dev love for the cube, to be concerned about this

my guess the WiiMote was for the cube but they just bumped up the specs to get the wiimote out on new hardware... Nintendo is one thing I can respect... they are extremely ballsy when betting on success

So the WiiU will be the low cost dev alternative this coming gen?

[GameplayWhore]

Their thinking was that, by making a system that was just like something that devs had already made good use of, that dev costs would stay down and help the industry.

And the primary (well, one of) flaw in their plan was that both their competitors ended up machines which were very similar to develop for. It did not help the problem with the industry's increasing costs, but it did allow for a strategy which let developers have a large consumer audience and still retain the preferred big jump in performance.

So the WiiU will be the low cost dev alternative this coming gen?

If it isn't due to the hardware, it will be cheaper at least in part due to Nintendo footing the bill on some middleware.

[Smiles and Cries]

And the primary (well, one of) flaw in their plan was that both their competitors ended up machines which were very similar to develop for. It did not help the problem with the industry's increasing costs, but it did allow for a strategy which let developers have a large consumer audience and still retain the preferred big jump in performance. If it isn't due to the hardware, it will be cheaper at least in part due to Nintendo footing the bill on some middleware.

Microsoft can copy this, not so sure if Sony can afford it these days, but its good news for devs regardless

[AzaK]

Their thinking was that, by making a system that was just like something that devs had already made good use of, that dev costs would stay down and help the industry.

Problem is, they totally forgot they only sold 22 million units of their previous generation. i.e. most devs were using different tech. They were extremely short sighted and arrogant with the Wii. It worked from a profit point of view with the controller and good marketting, but for "core" gamers and "top tier" third party developers and their games I think they are worse off now than with the GameCube.

As much as I love their games and am really looking forward to the Wii U, I would kick Iwata in the nuts if I ever met him.

[nordique]

Problem is, they totally forgot they only sold 22 million units of their previous generation. i.e. most devs were using different tech. They were extremely short sighted and arrogant with the Wii. It worked from a profit point of view with the controller and good marketting, but for "core" gamers and "top tier" third party developers and their games I think they are worse off now than with the GameCube. As much as I love their games and am really looking forward to the Wii U, I would kick Iwata in the nuts if I ever met him.

Yikes.


Wii was probably the smartest move the company made since the Gameboy.


I'd take notes from Iwata's business mind if I ever met him.

[AceBandage]

Problem is, they totally forgot they only sold 22 million units of their previous generation. i.e. most devs were using different tech. They were extremely short sighted and arrogant with the Wii. It worked from a profit point of view with the controller and good marketting, but for "core" gamers and "top tier" third party developers and their games I think they are worse off now than with the GameCube. As much as I love their games and am really looking forward to the Wii U, I would kick Iwata in the nuts if I ever met him.

Why? The Wii was the most brilliant thing Nintendo ever did. Not his fault that third parties like being self destructive.

[Christberg]

Speaking of the Wii/GC GPU, I remember it had quite a bit of 1T-SRAM bolted directly into the GPU. This allowed for super fast (at the time) access for some of the fixed function capabilities in the hardware. As I recall this one one of the key reasons the GC was such a little miracle machine.

Revisiting earlier speculation about having some "fixed function" bits bolted onto the processor, does anyone want to take a stab at what could be done with the GPU having super fast, direct bus/path with the eDRAM on the same die?

[Maxim726X]

Why? The Wii was the most brilliant thing Nintendo ever did. Not his fault that third parties like being self destructive.

No one buys 3rd party games on the Wii... Don't see how that translates to third party developers being self-destructive.

[AceBandage]

No one buys 3rd party games on the Wii... Don't see how that translates to third party developers being self-destructive.

No body bought third party games on the Wii because third parties shit all over consumers on the Wii...