[Ether_Snake]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...ng-debt-crisis

A few months before submarines became the talk of Athens, Yiannis Panagopoulos, who heads the Greek trade union confederation (GSEE), found himself sitting opposite Angela Merkel at a private meeting the German chancellor had called of European trade unionists in Berlin. When it came to his turn to address the leader, he instinctively popped the question that many in Greece have wanted to ask. "After running through all the reasons why austerity wasn't working in my country I brought up the issue of defence expenditure. Was it right, I asked, that our government makes so many weapons purchases from Germany when it obviously couldn't afford such deals and was slashing wages and pensions?" Merkel's reaction was instant. "She immediately said: 'But we never asked you to spend so much of your GDP on defence,'" Panagopoulos recalled. "And then she mentioned the issue of outstanding payments on submarines she said Germany had been owed for over a decade." Greek profligacy may be blamed for triggering the debt crisis that now threatens to tear the eurozone apart, but if there is one area where Berlin is less excoriating of state largesse it is in Athens's extravagant taste for arms. Behind the frequent exhortations that Greece rein in spending after living "beyond its means" – admonishments made most loudly by Merkel and her finance minister Wolfgang Schäuble – there is another reality that paints Germany in a less than flattering light, according to MPs, military experts, economists and scholars. "If there is one country that has benefited from the huge amounts Greece spends on defence it is Germany," said Dimitris Papadimoulis, an MP with the Coalition of the Radical Left party.

"Just under 15% of Germany's total arms exports are made to Greece, its biggest market in Europe," Papadimoulis said the MP, reeling off figures from a scruffy armchair in his party's parliamentary office. "Greece has paid over €2bn (£1.6bn) for submarines that proved to be faulty and which it doesn't even need. "It owes another €1bn as part of the deal. That's three times the amount Athens was asked to make in additional pension cuts to secure its latest EU aid package." According to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (Sipri), France is not far behind. Some 10% of its total arms sales go to Greece, which is a member of Nato. From 2002 to 2006, Greece was the world's fourth biggest importer of conventional weapons. It is now the 10th. "As a proportion of GDP, Greece spends twice as much as any other EU member on defence," said Papadimoulis, who is also a former MEP. "Well after the economic crisis had begun, Germany and France were trying to seal lucrative weapons deals even as they were pushing us to make deep cuts in areas like health." Under the latest EU-IMF-sponsored rescue programme – which is propping up the near-bankrupt Greek economy with an extra €130bn in emergency loans until 2015 – Athens has agreed to cut defence expenditure by €400m. Even so, its military budget accounts for nearly 4% of national economic output, compared with the eurozone average of around 2%. The country has cited perceived security risks from Turkey and, in addition to state-of-the-art submarines, has bought hundreds of Leopard tanks, howitzers, Mirage fighter planes and F-16 jets from Germany, France and the US since the late 1990s. Speculation is rife that international aid was dependent on Greece following through on agreements to buy military hardware from Germany and France.

"Since the 1974 Turkish invasion of Cyprus, Greece has spent an estimated €216bn on armaments, although I am 100% certain that in absolute terms its defence expenditure is much greater than official documents would show due to the so-called secret funds the state has access to," said Katerina Tsoukala, a Brussels-based security expert. "The problem is that unlike Britain, for example, Greece has never had a transparent and democratic defence procurement strategy. Instead, everything is veiled in secrecy and people like me have to go to Sipri to find out information that in other countries would be readily available." The murkiness has ensured that over the years the Greek arms trade has become increasingly associated with high-level bribery and corruption – the very practices abhorred by Berlin, Athens' main provider of rescue funds.

Full article at the link.

Gotta cut spending, can't afford health care, can't afford free education, can't afford anything that serves the middle class, Greece spent too much! Bad Greece!

Now ask yourself how many concessions were made under the excuse of austerity which were done for the same reasons than this one? How much land will be "privatized" to line up the pockets of individuals, under the pretense that it is necessary to reign in spending?

Tsochadzopoulos, the most senior official yet to be arraigned in connection with corruption, stands accused of funnelling the cash, initially deposited in a Swiss bank account, via offshore companies to buy two properties in Athens, including a luxury home on the capital's most expensive boulevard. His wife and daughter also appeared in court on Thursday accused of money laundering. They, along with the veteran socialist, denied the charges. In the course of a two-year investigation by prosecutors in Munich, senior Ferrostaal employees, including its chief executive, resigned after acknowledging that money had been exchanged to secure the sale of submarines to Greece and Portugal. Last year, after publicly apologising for its role in the furore, Ferrostaal agreed to pay a €140m fine. In a similar case the German engineering group Siemens recently reached an out of court settlement with Greece following claims it had bribed cabinet ministers and other officials to secure contracts before the 2004 Olympic Games in Athens. Tassos Mandelis, a former socialist transport minister, admitted he had accepted a €100,000 payment from Siemens in 1998.

But yeah, keep blaming those "lazy dirty over-spending Greeks!".

Maybe now you can start to feel a shadow of a glimpse of a bit of sympathy for people protesting.



Edit: Just to rub it in:

No other area has contributed as heavily to the country's debt mountain. If Athens had cut defence spending to levels similar to other EU states over the past decade, economists claim it would have saved around €150bn – more than its last bailout. Instead, Greece dedicates up to €7bn a year to military expenditure – down from a high of €10bn in 2009.

[ElectricBlue187]

why is greece spending any billions on defense? or Europe in general for that matter.

[Ether_Snake]

why is greece spending any billions on defense? or Europe in general for that matter.

Answer in the article:

"Germany became Germany partly because for 62 years it did not have to think about military expenditure," said Angelos Philippides, a prominent economist. "For a long time Greece spent 7% of its GDP on defence when other European countries spent an average 2.2%. If you were to add up that compound 5% from 1946 to today, there would be no debt at all," he said. "It's vital that if the European Union wants to speak about fair deals it should at least guarantee Greek borders [with Turkey] so the country can bring down military spending to 2.2%." The imbalance has spawned speculation that peripheral countries in Europe with vulnerable frontiers such as Greece are being exploited in terms of defence spending by wealthier states at Europe's core.

[Sickboy007]

why is greece spending any billions on defense? or Europe in general for that matter.

Dick waggling with Turkey, and a propensity for these deals to be very profitable for those who arrange them (bribery).

[RamzaIsCool]

So what´s Greece going to do, now that Turkey has increased militairy spending on the back of the economic bubble and Neo Ottoman ideology. In 2011 alone Turkey have signed new defense contracts worth of $30 billion. Not to mention the 100+ F35 stealthjets which will go into service somewhere this decade.

[Ether_Snake]

So what´s Greece going to do, now that Turkey has increased militairy spending on the back of the economic bubble and Neo Ottoman ideology. In 2011 alone Turkey have signed new defense contracts worth of $30 billion. Not to mention the 100+ F35 stealthjets which will go into service somewhere this decade.

I guess the answer is: sell off land, sell ruins, sell its history, privatize anything and everything, tax the middle class more, etc. But don't cut that military spending cause Turkey will invade!

But actually the article has the answer, again:

"It's vital that if the European Union wants to speak about fair deals it should at least guarantee Greek borders [with Turkey] so the country can bring down military spending to 2.2%."

If Germany doesn't agree, would they accept that Greece lowers its military spending? Oh but wait:

Speculation is rife that international aid was dependent on Greece following through on agreements to buy military hardware from Germany and France.

It's pretty clear what is going on, and how much bullshit lies behind the whole "The sky is falling! Reduce your debt or every one dies! Just sign here please."

[FutureZombie]

That's not really hypocrisy. It's more like, "Stop hitting yourself, stop hitting yourself, stop hitting yourself."

[gutter_trash]

why is greece spending any billions on defense? or Europe in general for that matter.

Turkey

[Ether_Snake]

That's not really hypocrisy. It's more like, "Stop hitting yourself, stop hitting yourself, stop hitting yourself."

Maybe you need to read the article.

[danwarb]

That's not really hypocrisy. It's more like, "Stop hitting yourself, stop hitting yourself, stop hitting yourself."

You are correct.

[Hasardeur]

Well it's a hypocrisy in that Germany wants Greece to pay for the weapon deal they arranged a decade ago while at the same time they're bailing them out with tax money. The only logical thing for Germany to do would be to abate the debts.

[maniac-kun]

The youth in Germany is so disapointed in the established political parties that we currently vote for the pirate party. The pirates allready got huge results in the state "Landtag" elections in some states. Merkel is from the CDU and my generation dosent trust them anymore.

[Timedog]

How come Turkey and Greece don't like each other?

[evil solrac v3.0]

is it safe to say that Germany uses Greece as a buffer state against Turkey/ piggy bank?

[yacobod]

How come Turkey and Greece don't like each other?

you could start with the Fall of Constantinople in 1453, but it probably runs earlier than that.

[Jason Raize '75 - '04]

Why are we hearing about this now? Why wasn't it 'leaked' two months ago?

[Dr.Guru of Peru]

I read the article. I really dont think Ether Snake's brain works the way normal brains are supposed to, because I see nothing here redeeming Greece.

[Jason's Ultimatum]

Kick Greece out of the EU and let Turkey take their place instead.

Why are we hearing about this now? Why wasn't it 'leaked' two months ago?

About Germany telling Greece to not slash their defense while continuing to buy arms from Germany and cutting social programs at the same time? Yes.

[Ether_Snake]

How come Turkey and Greece don't like each other?

you could start with the Fall of Constantinople in 1453, but it probably runs earlier than that.

In a way, it goes back all the way to the Spartans and Xerxes. I'm serious.

So yeah, don't expect Greece to back down from military spending. But the first ones that should understand that is the EU's mom and pop, and they should have offered a solution years ago.

I read the article. I really dont think Ether Snake's brain works the way normal brains are supposed to, because I see nothing here redeeming Greece.

It's redeeming to Greeks because you put the blame on the Greek PEOPLE. Everything in this article reinforces the fact that its government is corrupt and has been responsible, along with France and Germany, for the situation Greece is in now.

But keep playing the higher-than-thou game to sleep better at night by blaming the Greek people. Some blame the black people and Mexicans in the US for the same reasons.

[xbhaskarx]

I'm confused, is Germany *forcing* Greece to spend money on their military, or to buy German military hardware? Does Greece have no control over those things?

[Hasardeur]

is it safe to say that Germany uses Greece as a buffer state against Turkey/ piggy bank?

Turkey is on good terms with Germany and the rest of Europe, and they've been in talks with the EU over a potential membership for many, many years now (Greece is against it though, and then there's the unresolved Cyprus conflict)

Why are we hearing about this now? Why wasn't it 'leaked' two months ago?

er, afaik, this isn't exactly new news

[LJ11]

Why are we hearing about this now? Why wasn't it 'leaked' two months ago?

Everyone, who cared anyway, knew the situation. What the media chooses to focus on is a different matter. The info was out there, no one was hiding anything.

[Rourkey]

I read the article. I really dont think Ether Snake's brain works the way normal brains are supposed to, because I see nothing here redeeming Greece.

a neither do I, as the Germans are having to bail out Greece the least Greece could do is honour it's debts to German companies.

[Jason's Ultimatum]

Everyone, who cared anyway, knew the situation. What the media chooses to focus on is a different matter. The info was out there, no one was hiding anything.

WSJ reported on it eons ago:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...108208712.html

[Zhengi]

I don't quite understand. How is Germany at fault here when it's Greece who is spending the money buying the weapons? That's like going to an electronic store and being tempted by the shiny 80" TV with the works, buying it, and then blaming the store that you have spent your money on that shiny new gadget and not having enough money to spend on other things.

[LJ11]

WSJ reported on it eons ago: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...108208712.html

Didn't mean to imply that it wasn't reported on at all, as I said the info was out there. The medias attention, for the most part, was focused elsewhere however. They'd focus on how many swimming pools weren't reported for tax purposes, which is an issue of course, tax evasion as a whole is, but the bribes and kickbacks defense ministers were taking wasn't really on the front burner. Can't even prosecute them for the most part, though I believe an exception was made for one particular minister who really went all in.

[badcrumble]

I don't quite understand. How is Germany at fault here when it's Greece who is spending the money buying the weapons? That's like going to an electronic store and being tempted by the shiny 80" TV with the works, buying it, and then blaming the store that you have spent your money on that shiny new gadget and not having enough money to spend on other things.

Um this is about the Greek government planning to spend future money on *more* military acquisitions.

[Zhengi]

Um this is about the Greek government planning to spend future money on *more* military acquisitions.

So how is this Germany's fault?

[RiccochetJ]

When it comes to Greek government, I still remember the conversation that I had with poisonelf in 2010 who is (possibly past tense now) a small business owner over there:

It left an impression on me so I went and found it again.

I would really like to be brief, but honestly, I don't believe it can be made simple. I'm Greek, a small-business owner. I'll try to explain: 1) There is a huge outpouring of populist articles that have turned the entire Western public opinion against lazy, cheating Greeks. It's almost surreal, frightening, and for Greeks obviously shaming and saddening. If you look from articles just a few months back, you'll find articles from forbes saying how Greeks are among the hardest working people after I think Koreans (please google anything I mention, you'll find it all if it really interests you). You'll also find articles detailing how Greece is almost forced to spend huge amounts for its armed forces, amounts it cannot support. 2) Greece reeks of corruption. It is beyond belief. No one is punished over economic or political crimes. Ever. There is a special law according to which ministers are absolved of all crimes 4 years after their term. Yes, it's a real law. And of course ANY hearing for a minister's crimes takes endless years to run its course. Greek laws change endlessly. You cannot support a small business based on any form of a plan. New laws may tax what was not taxable a few months back, may prohibit actions that you invested on (and that were legal just yesterday), etc. Really, if you have not experienced it, it is hard to believe. Thus tax-evasion is two-fold. a) Huge business steal in collaboration with politicians whom they bribe, or threat to fire hundreds of people, leading to protests, and b) small businesses who are forced to steal, since the laws ACTUALLY REVOLVED AROUND EXPECTING YOU TO STEAL, thus if you don't the taxation is so high that you'll be forced to close down. I can go into that more if anyone wants me to. 3) Still, on corruption. A quarter of Greece works of client relations between public workers and politicians. Weird bonuses are made up to please their own (party-aligned members). Entire organizations are made, so that huge salaries are awarded. The public sector is huge, unnecessary, and keeps on supporting the whole corrupted creation. Why would we vote for this cancerous blob ? Well there is no fucking alternative, and it is mostly that 1/4 that keeps on voting for the same criminals. 4) Germany is not taxing to 'bail out' Greece. Germany will not be taxing anyone to provide this assistance - it will borrow money by issuing bonds (at 3% interest rate) which it will give to Greece (at a a 5% interest rate). Thus, it is Greek taxpayers who will be paying a 2% interest rate (i.e. a few hundred million euros) for Germany's assistance. It is a LOAN, with a steep interest rate. I find that quite fair to be honest, but saying 'bail out' brings to mind the free handouts of countless billions the banks received. Germany's economic minister Bruderle just announced the German economy is booming and compared this with the boom year 2006. I presume that this development has partly to do with Greece's almost bankruptcy resulting in rapid devaluation of the Euro. This has subsequently contributed to boost the German export industry. For the past decades the largest, by far, scandals in Greece have German multi-nationals involved (and of course, corrupt Greek politicians). Siemens, a company selling submarines, the one about Greek railroads, etc etc. 5) There are many myths and stereotypes in recent articles about greeks. Greeks don't retire at 50 as many believe. The average for 2008 was 61.4 slightly higher than the EU average of 61.1 years. And this number was 62.7 in 2003 but dropped due to massive retirements of civil servants in an attempt to reduce the public sector. and greeks are not getting paid 14 wages for 12 months work but it's just that their annual wage is split into 14 parts. It's the same if you get 20.000 pounds annually in 12 or 14 or 52 wages. ) Wages are still low for a European country. 6) Coming to recent riots. Consider all of the above. You work hard, you are paid meagerly (not belonging to the 'chosen ones' of the public sector), you see politicians laughing at you and buying yachts, and suddenly, the IMF comes in, the EU accuses you of being lazy, your wages are cut, you are asked to pay MORE taxes, the rich are untouchable, the politicians are never punished, AND THE WHOLE WORLD IS TURNED AGAINST YOU THROUGH THE ONSLAUGHT OF WEIRD ARTICLES. So you take to the streets, hating anyone in general, wishing for this fucking country to burn, while the world looks on and wonders how the fuck dare you protest when you had it so good for so long.

So forgive me Ether_Snake if I find your OP kind of weird. You have the Greek government accusing a foreign country of being the cause for a lot of their ills and then connect that to the citizens of Greece rioting. You even have Greek government corruption in your article.

This whole thing is a huge deflection.

[badcrumble]

So how is this Germany's fault?

Because they're putting enormous political pressure on the Greek government to cut crucial social services and keep the military spending.

[speculawyer]

Greece is part of NATO and that probably requires some minimum spending. But they should cut it to the bare minimum.

[Fritz]

Now you WANT Germany to be Greece's babysitter and tell them exactly what to do and what not?

And anyway it's not like Greece is buying from Germany. Greek Government, the government of a sovereign state that should be able to act responsible, is buying from German companies. Our Government does not intervene in private affairs. Only possibility would be to impose an embargo on Greece. Is that what you are calling for? Fair enough I guess.

Also it's fucking ironic that you always claim Germans don't see the Greek people suffering because of our biased media. Way off. There is more media than the tabloids you know and we are very well aware of the problems. It's apparently whatever biased media you're using that has you believe Germans are some cold-hearted asshole Nazis, which we are not.

I haven't seen any constructive comment from you on the whole situation. It's just Germany this, Germany that. Good luck!

[catfish]

Now you WANT Germany to be Greece's babysitter and tell them exactly what to do and what not?

exactly.

Merkel's reaction was instant. "She immediately said: 'But we never asked you to spend so much of your GDP on defence,'" Panagopoulos recalled. "And then she mentioned the issue of outstanding payments on submarines she said Germany had been owed for over a decade."

how is any of this wrong.

Greece: "we're in debt because you keep selling us stuff"
Germany: "why do you keep buying it from us?"
Greece: "fuck you Germany"

is how I read this entire crisis situation.

and it's pointless, because for all the nazi posters the protestors put up, that just isn't going to help them. They keep talking like they know the answers. But why are they in the shit then if they're so great at this stuff? What does Greece expect Germany to do except give advice that they know works for them?!

[Open Source]

So Greece's complaint is that they are too inept and corrupt to be trusted with spending decisions, and that other countries are mean because they were looking out for their own interests instead of doing the job of Greece's incompetent political class for them?

All I read was a bunch of loser talk. That country is going nowhere with whiners like that in charge.

[Hyuga]

how is any of this wrong. Greece: "we're in debt because you keep selling us stuff" Germany: "why do you keep buying it from us?" Greece: "fuck you Germany"

This!
I'm laughing my ass off about the whole article.
lol Greece
Now it's germany's fault? Well, no!

[Rourkey]

Greece is part of NATO and that probably requires some minimum spending. But they should cut it to the bare minimum.

Greece spend 4% of GDP when NATO requires 2%

[Sir Fragula]

Thread backfire?

[Flek]

Oh greece you so silly

[Castor Krieg]

Thread backfire?

Seems so:

No other area has contributed as heavily to the country's debt mountain. If Athens had cut defence spending to levels similar to other EU states over the past decade, economists claim it would have saved around €150bn – more than its last bailout. Instead, Greece dedicates up to €7bn a year to military expenditure – down from a high of €10bn in 2009.

Then why THE FUCK did Greece had to buy all these weapons?

[Fritz]

Seems so: Then why THE FUCK did Greece had to buy all these weapons?

I AM going to eat crow if Germany somehow forced Greece to spend their money on German arms. Would still be evidence for complete incapacity though.

[poisonelf]

Do some of you guys honestly don't understand the concept of big countries forcing small countries to buy arms through threats or through bribing corrupt officials?

Also, the article (and the thread I suppose), is very specific. It's about German hypocrisy on the issue of publicly denouncing Greek fiscal irresponsibility while at the same time profiteering through demanding that Greece buys those weapons, bribes Greek politicians to buy faulty submarines (Ferrostaal deal), etc.
It's -not- about whose fault the whole situation is, how it started, what's at stake and everything.

Some replies are funny.

[Phantast2k]

You can't offload the blame on Greece either..
German companies have an illustrious history of bribery when conducting business outside of Germany. Including Greece: Complicit in Corruption: How German Companies Bribed Their Way to Greek Deals - SPIEGEL ONLINE
The military-industrial complex is thriving in Germany thanks to the export deals (to countries such as Saudi Arabia, who surely won't hesitate to use the Leopard tanks we just recently sold them to crush the opposition in Bahrain).
And I wouldn't be surprised if there's some large party/campaign contributions by the said industry to buy some favors. There are even precedents where (ruling party) CDU was involved in illegal contributions originating from an "arms dealer"...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_CD...utions_scandal

But back to Greece. If back then, some corrupt generals and politicians scared their political elite into signing those deals then it's rather hard to put the whole blame on "Greece"..

Germany (among other nations) definitely deserves some blame for this shit. This is like some sort of channeling of tax payer's money into the military-industrial complex which was so reckless to sell those arms to Greece because there seemed to be implicit (and probably explicit) guarantees by the German gov. It seems like no other industry enjoys those privileges. Except for the financial sector which is a pillar of the economic system.

This is how I it could have went down:
- say, tank producer KMW goes to Greece to bribe the ppl. in charge of defense into buying the Leopards (even though they barely serve a purpose in their mountainous terrain)
- the defense-savvy ppl. start to use scare tactics on the political establishment or share some of that bribe money with it to initiate an order for the said tanks.
- the German gov. approves of the deal and helps with some money by lending it to the Greek state through the federal & state banks (e.g. KfW).
- The purchase is complete, KMW (the Leopard producer) probably got most of the money from the KfW.
- Greece owes Germany money for useless tanks.

And if the article is correct in suggesting that new bailouts are contingent on Greece going through with the contracts (purchase orders) no matter what then it's obvious that this is just merely some sort of channeled financing for the German military-industrial complex.
Because the way things are right now most of this debt will have to be shouldered by the German public.

All I'm saying is: don't be so fast with distributing blame...

[poisonelf]

I AM going to eat crow if Germany somehow forced Greece to spend their money on German arms. Would still be evidence for complete incapacity though.

Interesting...

From another post:


Germany along with France were forcing Greece to buy insane amounts of military equipment, at ridiculous prices, even as the “bailouts” were seen as needed. They actually demanded this as a term for the loans.

In the following New York Times article Turkey is blaming Europe of forcing Greece to buy weapons and military equipment. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/30/wo...ht-turkey.html

Greece Spends Bailout Cash On European Military Purchases:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/greece...tary-purchases

France, Germany Forced Greece to Buy Arms:
http://www.defensenews.com/article/2...e-Buy-Arms-MEP

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7fnJCmbuPU Daniel Cohn Bendit, French EU parliament member, describes how Greece is given money so it can buy German and French weapons. At 2:20 he mentions some economical details. At 4:20 he talks about military spending and at 4:49 start specific about French and German sales. “we are giving them money so they can buy our weapons.”

Ferrostaal is another example involving the infamous ‘side tilting’ submarines. The minister of Defense during that deal, Tsochatzopoulos, has actually been restricted from leaving the country (update: he's in jail now), which is ground breaking here since there is a specific law acquitting ministers of pretty much all crimes (the law regarding ministers’ responsibility. Nothing to do with Germany, just mentioning it).
Ferrostaal was fined almost 140 million in a Munich court of law.
http://www.lepointinternational.com/...k-greece-.html

[poisonelf]

When it comes to Greek government, I still remember the conversation that I had with poisonelf in 2010 who is (possibly past tense now) a small business owner over there: It left an impression on me so I went and found it again.

Hey, just noticed this :) Still am, though it's getting pretty difficult with lots of people essentially having no money. There are streets that used to be highly valued trade areas where it's like 'ghost streets', 2 out of 3 stores empty and up for rent.

At the same time EU officials publicly claimed that all this unprecedented, destructive austerity is not enough and that Greece should cut even more on wages, new taxes have been announced, so the pillaging is still going strong it seems.

Everything is 'frozen' now since there are elections at May 6, but after that I really think my business will be over like thousands others in the past couple of years. I don't see any small business surviving this IMF-EU run if they're allowed to continue.

[Fritz]

Interesting... From another post: Germany along with France were forcing Greece to buy insane amounts of military equipment, at ridiculous prices, even as the “bailouts” were seen as needed. They actually demanded this as a term for the loans. In the following New York Times article Turkey is blaming Europe of forcing Greece to buy weapons and military equipment. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/30/wo...ht-turkey.html Greece Spends Bailout Cash On European Military Purchases: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/greece...tary-purchases France, Germany Forced Greece to Buy Arms: http://www.defensenews.com/article/2...e-Buy-Arms-MEP http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7fnJCmbuPU Daniel Cohn Bendit, French EU parliament member, describes how Greece is given money so it can buy German and French weapons. At 2:20 he mentions some economical details. At 4:20 he talks about military spending and at 4:49 start specific about French and German sales. “we are giving them money so they can buy our weapons.” Ferrostaal is another example involving the infamous ‘side tilting’ submarines. The minister of Defense during that deal, Tsochatzopoulos, has actually been restricted from leaving the country (update: he's in jail now), which is ground breaking here since there is a specific law acquitting ministers of pretty much all crimes (the law regarding ministers’ responsibility. Nothing to do with Germany, just mentioning it). Ferrostaal was fined almost 140 million in a Munich court of law. http://www.lepointinternational.com/...k-greece-.html

Can you point me to one, better two, reputable sources that clarify that Germany forced Greece to buy arms? All we got is Cohn-Bendit, of all people, who claims he has heard from Papandreou that Merkel and Sarkozy "blackmailed" (lol) him in inofficial talks to pay for deals that have already been executed anyway.
Sorry, but that is not enough. No court would take that as evidence. I seriously will shut up and I want to know whats going on, but this is merely allegations.

Edit: Don't get me wrong please. I believe that there is heavy industry lobbyism in Germany and I can absolutely see that Merkel would insist on payment of already executed arm deals, which is not nice allright. But I refuse to believe - unless proven otherwise - that she forces Greece to buy weapons. I mean, how would that even be possible? And if so, what kind of losers are the representives to get bullied into ruining their country?

[poisonelf]

Can you point me to one, better two, repuatbel sources that clarify that Germany forced Greece to buy arms? All we got is Cohn-Bendit, of all people, who claims he has heard vom Papandreou that Merkel and Sarkozy "blackmailined" (lol) him in inofficial talks to pay for deals that have already been executed anyway. Sorry, but that is not enough. No court would take that as evidence. I seriously will shut up and I want to know whats going on, but this is merely allegations.

Ah, so all of the above articles, court convictions, and claims are not enough and you want scans of official documents detailing how the deal, bribes and/or threats were finalized, and perhaps some hidden camera footage of the discussions.
Yeah, I'd really like that too, I'm afraid I have no such hard evidence.

And really, it's not about you specifically 'eating crow' or not, the situation for someone who wants to objectively understand what's happening is pretty obvious, and these are just to kick start research for anyone who's interested in all this. There are tens of similar articles.

And that's just one way that Germany profiteered through all this. The real important part is loaning at extreme (for a EU member country) interest rates to Greece (what's called bailouts), gaining through devaluation of the euro, many, perhaps tens, of cases of German corporations bribing in Greece, etc.
All this is based on the corruption of Greek politicians of course, but to say Germany is 'innocent' of the situation and that it's somehow losing by all this is a joke.

Here's a nice documentary by German media on (just some of the ways) of how Germany is gaining billions through all this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=9iOcEme-s84

It's in German (German start at 0:17) with Greek subs. I couldn't find it with English subs I'm afraid.

[Fritz]

Ah, so all of the above articles, court convictions, and claims are not enough and you want scans of official documents detailing how the deal, bribes and/or threats were finalized, and perhaps some hidden camera footage of the discussions. Yeah, I'd really like that too, I'm afraid I have no such hard evidence. And really, it's not about you specifically 'eating crow' or not, the situation for someone who wants to objectively understand what's happening is pretty obvious, and these are just to kick start research for anyone who's interested in all this. There are tens of similar articles. And that's just one way that Germany profiteered through all this. The real important part is loaning at extreme (for a EU member country) interest rates to Greece (what's called bailouts), gaining through devaluation of the euro, many, perhaps tens, of cases of German corporations bribing in Greece, etc. All this is based on the corruption of Greek politicians of course, but to say Germany is 'innocent' of the situation and that it's somehow losing by all this is a joke. Here's a nice documentary by German media on (just some of the ways) of how Germany is gaining billions through all this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=9iOcEme-s84 It's in German (German start at 0:17) with Greek subs. I couldn't find it with English subs I'm afraid.

What? Sorry? No! All I am asking for is evidence for Germany forcing Greece to buy weapons. An article by a reputable newspaper is enough for me. I am not arguing here, I want to know too.

I cant watch the video though. Because it's 11:27 am here and I am at work (lol).

[Binabik15]

Ah, so all of the above articles, court convictions, and claims are not enough and you want scans of official documents detailing how the deal, bribes and/or threats were finalized, and perhaps some hidden camera footage of the discussions. Yeah, I'd really like that too, I'm afraid I have no such hard evidence. And really, it's not about you specifically 'eating crow' or not, the situation for someone who wants to objectively understand what's happening is pretty obvious, and these are just to kick start research for anyone who's interested in all this. There are tens of similar articles. And that's just one way that Germany profiteered through all this. The real important part is loaning at extreme (for a EU member country) interest rates to Greece (what's called bailouts), gaining through devaluation of the euro, many, perhaps tens, of cases of German corporations bribing in Greece, etc. All this is based on the corruption of Greek politicians of course, but to say Germany is 'innocent' of the situation and that it's somehow losing by all this is a joke. Here's a nice documentary by German media on (just some of the ways) of how Germany is gaining billions through all this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=9iOcEme-s84 It's in German (German start at 0:17) with Greek subs. I couldn't find it with English subs I'm afraid.

So if Greece buys arms, borrows money or makes shady deals it's "BANKSTERS! Corrupt politicians! Pawns of corporations!"

If a German bank/government official/corporation does something, it's Germany's fault and "Damn those Germans!"

Nice differntiation there.

[poisonelf]

What? Sorry? No! All I am asking for is evidence for Germany forcing Greece to buy weapons. An article by a reputable newspaper is enough for me. I am not arguing here, I want to know too. I cant watch the video though. I am at work (lol)

I'm also at work so I'm mostly using past posts of mine, I'd need to start searching in saved articles and such again when I'm at home.

I really hope you do see this video when you can, and tell me what you thought of it and how many people in Germany know this side of the situation (I'm assuming you're German?).

[poisonelf]

So if Greece buys arms, borrows money or makes shady deals it's "BANKSTERS! Corrupt politicians! Pawns of corporations!" If a German bank/government official/corporation does something, it's Germany's fault and "Damn those Germans!" Nice differntiation there.

If you're referring to me specifically, when saying Germans or Germany under this context I meant current German leadership and officials, as well as CEOs of corporations relevant to the issue. Sorry I didn't make the distinction clear enough.

To avoid misunderstandings here's what I was writing in a post I made a few months ago regarding Germany's involvement with the Greek crisis in answer to some users asking 'why are some Greeks hostile towards Germany when all we do is help':

!! IMPORTANT NOTE: This is not, in any way, an attack against the German people. I feel that the people of Germany have also been lied to and some (many?) have been led to believe that Greece is an ungrateful parasite of sorts, living off their money. I do consider Merkel and her staff as cold-blooded colonialists and servants of banking cartels, but I place them as far from the average German citizen as I place Greek politicians in comparison to the average Greek citizen. Personally, after endless reading and watching political shows, I consider German leadership’s behavior to be a way to promote acceptance upon public opinion over the humiliating and sometimes dehumanizing measures that the TROIKA imposes on Greece, and goes further to include political gains for Merkel as she uses harsh rhetoric against Greece and pushes for even harsher measures of impoverishment. Also on a personal note, I hate the fact that nationalism is on the rise, here and sadly all over Europe, and I hope, perhaps against reason as things are starting to get out of hand, that this whole rivalry and outbursts of racism will not escalate and will be remembered as a misunderstanding.