[Speedymanic]

It's funny that in one post you states that we should accept ads because "you can never, even hope to change", and then you states that when some other type of ads becomes commonplace "it's time to start bitching". Why should we accept one type of ads and not accept the others, then? After all, "how else are companies, etc supposed to let people know about their products"?

I wasn't clear in my post.

Ads that lengthen loads times is something to bitch about. Ads that appear during load screens will become a normal occurrence soon, it won't be anything to bitch about, but if they increase load times, it sure as shit will be.

[AlanzTalon]

Get out a cartridge based system from the past and play some games on it. You'll wonder what the fuck you're doing waiting around for all the bullshit that gets in your way of playing modern games. I truly do weep for the future generations because apparently they love advertising and brands so much that they don't have any clue what life was like without it.

how do you get through the day if you get this worked up over a 2x2 square in the corner of your Xbox main menu? redirect that energy, man. join the peace corps or something.

[Speedymanic]

Latest data point is "half" from Dennis Durkin in 2010. so it went from 60% to 50% 2007-2010. We don't know what happened after 2010, but MS would certainly advertise if they got 20 million paying gold members if they reached that number.

More than 20 million people are paying Xbox Live subscribers who can access the console's entertainment services. A total of 66 million Xbox 360s have been sold worldwide.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/ente...inity-mlb.html

Not sure if it's legit.

[EGM1966]

I'm still kind of the other way on paywalls... everything I get free, I still suspect it. I use it like crazy anyway, of course, and I balk at paying for something that could be had free (especially software, no clue why digital=free to me and everybody else on the planet as if no work or investment went into it, but I still feel less insulted paying for ice than I do software.) I'm just not fully invested in the free product approach for whatever reason, and always have in the back of my mind that somehow I'll be suckered to pay later even if it's obvious it'll never happen. (And in the case of websites and adware, to a tiny degree I known I am paying for it with my ad impressions but it's only every so often I feel cogent at all about the cumulative effects, like some product is in stores and I've never bought it before but think, "Oh, that came out... wait, why do I know what that is??") I know I'm just shy of a conspiracy-fueled freak-out where I drink my own urine and rage against the government, but I kind of like that the little glimmer is still ringing in the back of my brain when I use something for free.

So you're suspicious of Google and Facebook? I'm just referring to the fact that MS took a bunch of stuff that is free via any other device/medium and insterted themselves (and a fee) between you and access. That just doesn't wash with me. When I buy the console it's mine (including the Wifi hardware contained within it) and it's connected to my internet which I pay for. I'm no longer going to pay MS a fee to access non-MS stuff through my internet connection with a wifi device I've already paid for like some little tollkeeper.

It might sound strange - I'd argue it shouldn't really - but I preferred Live when I was only paying for the online service. I know it's easy to take the view that when you pay you're getting more but you're not really. Rather MS is limiting access to people paying for their service to get to other services. Now with the increasing ads I've had enough with where the service is going.

I'm not going to whine about it but I am going to vote with my wallet by bailing out and using other services/devices whose model I believe if fairer to the consumer and in line with what you pay for and what you don't.

[Vane_MagicCity]

Everything you love will eventually have ads. Netflix, Amazon, Lovefilm, games, movies, mobiles, etc. They are going to become more intrusive, more annoying, more in your face. Ads that lengthen loads times is something to bitch about. Ads that appear during load screens will become a normal occurrence soon, it won't be anything to bitch about, but if they increase load times, it sure as shit will be.

If are accepting and move on as you suggest then yes, they will throw ads into everything because it's money and no one will object. The only way to possibly avoid that is to object, loudly and also to stop giving money to companies who force ads into places they don't belong. For example, don't reward Microsoft with a Live renewal.

How will you know if ads lengthen the load times? It will be like the Day 1 DLC argument, no one can prove if that DLC was made after the game was finished or not and while they argue about, nothing changes.

[Marco1]

If are accepting and move on as you suggest then yes, they will throw ads into everything because it's money and no one will object. The only way to possibly avoid that is to object, loudly and also to stop giving money to companies who force ads into places they don't belong. For example, don't reward Microsoft with a Live renewal.

I agree. The problem with these services is the more we buy into them, the more we are tied to them. It's why I hate buying music, movies and games from their service as it's harder to walk away if 5 years down the line you realise that all of your entertainment is only available from their service.
Even though I own an iphone and a xbox360, I have found my spending on these services to have dropped significantly since I stopped buying retail also.
I am in limbo.

[Speedymanic]

If are accepting and move on as you suggest then yes, they will throw ads into everything because it's money and no one will object. The only way to possibly avoid that is to object, loudly and also to stop giving money to companies who force ads into places they don't belong. For example, don't reward Microsoft with a Live renewal.

Doing that is pretty much futile. You vote with your wallet and don't renew, another dozen or more sign up for live.

What's been achieved? Fighting against ads won't win a massive victory, services which are in their infancy won't rock the boat just yet, but a few years down the line, when they've got you hooked and they know there isn't a better service in their domain, they'll do exactly what MS is doing.

Want less ads or free live (never happen), pray that Sony and Ninty deliver a quality online service next gen. Then, and only then, will MS finally listen to their customers again.

[statham]

If are accepting and move on as you suggest then yes, they will throw ads into everything because it's money and no one will object. The only way to possibly avoid that is to object, loudly and also to stop giving money to companies who force ads into places they don't belong. For example, don't reward Microsoft with a Live renewal.

or maybe rewarding MS for nailing online services; 3 birds, one stone, you make a sandwich while your game installs, save on monthly live costs and eat healthy

[NullPointer]

But you encounter ads every day, almost everywhere... The hate for ads simply makes no sense.

That's exactly the problem. Its a non-stop barrage of "Aren't you hungry? Have a Big Mac! You need a new car! You won't get laid without Axe Body Spray! Why haven't you watched this big summer movie?! Don't you need clothing for your Xbox Avatar? " etc. etc. etc. and yes, its in all facets of our life, but gaming was at one time a reprieve.

I don't want games to be as blistered with ads as a DVD rental, a bus ride, or flipping through channels on TV. Not if I'm paying a fee for the service and receiving very little actual value in return.

Doing that is pretty much futile.

Sorry but this is bullshit. And its this kind of apathy that will soon allow for intrusive ads within the games themselves. Not for me - I'll find another hobby if that comes to pass.

[Eusis]

I compulsively install all 360 games so the PS3 install joke rings hollow to me now. Doesn't help that the 360 disc drive is VROOM VROOM VROOM VROOM VROOM. I actually am starting to wonder if it's dying.

[Vane_MagicCity]

Doing that is pretty much futile. You vote with your wallet and don't renew, another dozen or more sign up for live. What's been achieved? Fighting against ads won't win a massive victory, services which are in their infancy won't rock the boat just yet, but a few years down the line, when they've got you hooked and they know there isn't a better service in their domain, they'll do exactly what MS is doing. Want less ads or free live (never happen), pray that Sony and Ninty deliver a quality online service next gen. Then, and only then, will MS finally listen to their customers again.

So you're solution is to "pray". Well, I'll do that too but I'll call it "hope" because I don't pray.

If everyone who says "it's futile to vote in an independant candidate" actually did it, it wouldn't be futile anymore. Self fulfilling prophecy kind of stuff. All I can do is not give Microsoft any more money for Live, not buy another 360 and buy used games and I will do just that.

[railGUN]

Ads that lengthen loads times is something to bitch about. Ads that appear during load screens will become a normal occurrence soon, it won't be anything to bitch about, but if they increase load times, it sure as shit will be.

Why would that (ads that make load times longer) be the tipping point for you?

[Speedymanic]

That's exactly the problem. Its a non-stop barrage of "Aren't you hungry? Have a Big Mac! You need a new car! You won't get laid without Axe Body Spray! Why haven't you watched this big summer movie?! Don't you need clothing for your Xbox Avatar? " etc. etc. etc. and yes, its in all facets of our life, but gaming was at one time a reprieve. I don't want games to be as blistered with ads as a DVD rental, a bus ride, or flipping through channels on TV. Not if I'm paying a fee for the service and receiving very little actual value in return.

I get where you're coming from, but in all honesty, did you really think it would remain a reprieve the more popular and 'mainstream' gaming became?

Ads and various other monetizing methods were inevitable when online became such a huge focus in console gaming. Ad companies were probably salivating bucket loads as more and more people took their consoles online. For them, it was the avenue to replace ad money lost through people watching less tv.

No service is safe, eventually ads will come to Netflix, HBO GO, etc. You may pay for them, but the argument will be that they either increase the sub cost or implement ads to help with investment/running of the service.

Maybe I'm wrong for accepting this inevitability, but the alternative (getting angry, etc) isn't very appealing.

[NullPointer]

I get where you're coming from, but in all honesty, did you really think it would remain a reprieve the more popular and 'mainstream' gaming became?

Considering the fee to unlock otherwise free and basic features, that would be a resounding YES.

Maybe I'm wrong for accepting this inevitability, but the alternative (getting angry, etc) isn't very appealing.

The alternative is to use another product or service. Microsoft has no monopoly on gaming, not even console gaming. That's where customers have leverage. And that leverage is more powerful than ever considering the transition period to new hardware, where everyone can re-evaluate their investment in the platform.

[Vane_MagicCity]

I compulsively install all 360 games so the PS3 install joke rings hollow to me now. Doesn't help that the 360 disc drive is VROOM VROOM VROOM VROOM VROOM. I actually am starting to wonder if it's dying.

I do that too, it saves wear and tear on the DVD drive and it brings the heat level down. I also keep a fan on my 360 to pull the hot air away from it. I don't want a RRoD. I shake my head to think about that though, I would never have to do that with a Nintendo console.

[coldfoot]

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/ente...inity-mlb.html Not sure if it's legit.

Not in quotes means they made that part up. It's also not mentioned anywhere else besides that site.

[Marco1]

I agree, if I don't feel that anything I purchase is giving me value for my money then I walk away. If I take my family to a restaurant for a treat and I don't see them enjoying it then I don't go back, personally I don't care if it doesn't hurt them in the wallet as I'm not trying to hurt them and I certainly don't want to see them close. I just don't feel that I received good value for my money but if I get word that they've improved then I will try them again.
I do this with everything I spend my money on because being self-employed I personally provide an excellent service and if someone complains to be about my service, I will do whatever it takes to get them back on track.
Even though I don't use PC gaming anymore, my last memory of a decent service was steam.

[Speedymanic]

Not in quotes means they made that part up. It's also not mentioned anywhere else besides that site.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=20+million+peop...ve+subscribers

Hmm.

[Eusis]

No service is safe, eventually ads will come to Netflix, HBO GO, etc. You may pay for them, but the argument will be that they either increase the sub cost or implement ads to help with investment/running of the service.

We might see them with Netflix, $8 for streaming per month on loads of content IS a bargain and something's probably going to give (we're already seeing creaking through the changes in disc/streaming), but I seriously doubt it's going to happen with HBO Go. You only get that via an HBO subscription, which is at a significant premium and for YEARS has been an ad free channel except for downtime between movies, and that's only to show what else is on HBO. That'd be another reason it'd be frustrating to see pop up on Xbox Live, it's simply not going to be a problem elsewhere.

[EGM1966]

I get where you're coming from, but in all honesty, did you really think it would remain a reprieve the more popular and 'mainstream' gaming became? Ads and various other monetizing methods were inevitable when online became such a huge focus in console gaming. Ad companies were probably salivating bucket loads as more and more people took their consoles online. For them, it was the avenue to replace ad money lost through people watching less tv. No service is safe, eventually ads will come to Netflix, HBO GO, etc. You may pay for them, but the argument will be that they either increase the sub cost or implement ads to help with investment/running of the service. Maybe I'm wrong for accepting this inevitability, but the alternative (getting angry, etc) isn't very appealing.

Accepting something as invevitable in this reference is the same as tattoing "step here" on your forehead. Getting angy in a useless manner is equally dumb of course. You should just have more faith in market forces and your ability to influence them.

You talk as if it's inevitable. It isn't. Many times corporations and companies have to back down in the face of too much consumer criticism or a drop in customers because they've changed a service too much.

I don't mean online pettitions to change endings or whatever - I mean genuine consumer adandonment. Live isn't some impregnable service. If the balance tips enough to annoy enough people then the service will see a hit and MS will have to respond.

Anyway - Gabe will hopefully save us in the end with the open platform Steambox!

[upJTboogie]

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=20+million+peop...ve+subscribers Hmm.

There doesn't seem to be a quote there though, other people are using LA time as a source, but in the original LA article no one said that.

[NullPointer]

We might see them with Netflix, $8 for streaming per month on loads of content IS a bargain and something's probably going to give (we're already seeing creaking through the changes in disc/streaming), but I seriously doubt it's going to happen with HBO Go.

See now I'd be perfectly happy to pay more for Netflix, so they can raise the price and keep it ad-free and I'd bite. But if they just started putting ads in and I had no recourse I'd cancel in a heartbeat.

[see5harp]

Ads won't come to third party apps universally if that isn't their business model. There's nothing to suggest to that HBO or Netflix would choose to start playing ads before and during content playback. I would assume the third parties would have say in the matter and a piece of the ad revenue like android and iOS developers get with google ads.

[Raoh]

Free with ads Paid with no ads That would be a fair compromise.

This would make me consider xbox as a platform again.

meh


The ads to me is salt on the wounds.


Hulu Plus is an odd angle to use as argument for me, but... as an example...

Hulu Plus allows me to have a dvr like service without paying cablevision/time warner in nyc for the extra dvr box.

Tonights community will be available on hulu.com tomorrow for free and on devices for a fee.


(aha so you are willing to pay for services like xblg)

no.. i'm not. I'm not saving any money by subscribing to xblg which gives me nothing.

With hulu plus i can cut back on cable services, save $30 dollars on cable by cutting out dvr and other channel packages for $7.99.

Which I can access on pc for free or on psn for free or ................................. on xbl for $4 a month extra.

For all the apple hate, outside of hardware, apple does not have a pay wall.

The paywall is the issue.. all the hate for cable to move to online and MS is helping move cable like lifestyle and fees to online. Online is starting to feel like what cable services are like.

Not so much thanks to MS but thanks to MS supporters. And I can't tell all the time if they are truly in love with the service that is new to them or if they support it in hate of the competition.

[The Killing Joke]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRU8k...ure=plpp_video

[Persona7]

I wasn't clear in my post. Ads that lengthen loads times is something to bitch about. Ads that appear during load screens will become a normal occurrence soon, it won't be anything to bitch about, but if they increase load times, it sure as shit will be.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kX4f9zts6JM


Already happened.

[NullPointer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kX4f9zts6JM Already happened.

And rather than being inevitable and spreading universally across the gaming spectrum they were removed after customer and media outcry.

[RukusProvider]

It's ineffecient for you to look at gaming news on the internet but you're ok with looking at 20 ads to see 1 item you find interesting? Sorry, that doesn't make sense.

But it's not just gaming news. The service continues to expand beyond gaming at an aggressive rate. With so much content and promotions going on at any given time, I rather they be presented to be than me looking for them.

You and other clearly just want 4 tiles on the 360.
Play Game, Store, Apps, System settings.

For me, the only thing I'd change about the current dash is the true ad at the bottom right. Infact, I'd like the other tiles to start displaying content based on intelligence using my trends and purchase history. That'd probably get me to spend more which inturn would expose me to more games/music/videos I might like.

[bigtroyjon]

meh The ads to me is salt on the wounds. .

Microsoft has sold a lot of their hardware at a loss. They need to make money off of those hardware sales by people using the device. If people use the device for purposes where MS doesn't make money, it's a bad business to be in.

It's pretty simple, if you want to watch the content on an xbox you have to pay for gold. If you don't want to pay for gold, there are other options available so MS isn't stopping you from watching the content.

[see5harp]

And I can't tell all the time if they are truly in love with the service that is new to them or if they support it in hate of the competition.

I don't pay for Gold to get access to HBO Go, ESPN, or Hulu Plus..it's just a value add. I pay for Gold because it's required to play online and the online is still a good experience. It doesn't matter that it's P2P or whether no one else charges for the same package. If there weren't games on the platform I wanted to play or if I didn't want to play online, it wouldn't make sense at all.

You are among those who really feel that the experience of gaming online with the Vita is exactly the same (or even better than live), which is objectively false for anyone with actual experience with the 360. Now I agree with you that it would super awesome if Live were free. The online population in games would increase, console/software sales might see a bump, and I'm sure app devs like HBO and Netflix would see an increase in memberships. Unfortunately it's not up to me.

[Persona7]

And rather than being inevitable and spreading universally across the gaming spectrum they were removed after customer and media outcry.

They removed the ads but then they put shorter ones back one. It should have never happened in the first place.

[NullPointer]

Microsoft has sold a lot of their hardware at a loss. They need to make money off of those hardware sales by people using the device. If people use the device for purposes where MS doesn't make money, it's a bad business to be in.

True, but they already have several revenue streams besides even the hardware royalties and Gold fee: Video, Movie and TV show marketplaces, Games on Demand, the Avatar Marketplace, Premium Themes, over-priced peripherals, hosting of patches/demos, etc.

Considering how the service has matured to incorporate all of these channels I think its pretty reasonable to ask for the premium experience to be ad-free.

[OldJadedGamer]

I wasn't put on earth to consume ads. When I want to play videogames on my videogame console, I don't want to have advertising thrown in my face. There's no need for it.

I have a hard time believing you've never played a racing or sports game

I compulsively install all 360 games so the PS3 install joke rings hollow to me now. Doesn't help that the 360 disc drive is VROOM VROOM VROOM VROOM VROOM. I actually am starting to wonder if it's dying.

Mandatory installs are never a joke. It's a valid criticism that better go away next gen especially when games go as far as to have multiple mandatory installs during the actual game.

And rather than being inevitable and spreading universally across the gaming spectrum they were removed after customer and media outcry.

Because Sony didn't do it right and couldn't get away with it so removed it due to the outcry but the main take away here is that...... they tried to get away with it in the first place. Why are we even able to use it as an example to this day?

[Eusis]

Mandatory installs are never a joke. It's a valid criticism that better go away next gen especially when games go as far as to have multiple mandatory installs during the actual game.

I think the biggest problems there are that Sony actually shipped models with a 20 GB hard drive initially, did not make transferring over easy and painless, and that pretty much all newer games have installs. If they started with all 60 GB, or even went another step and the bare minimum was 120 or something it would usually be more of a nuisance than a real problem.

... And I think maybe the manufacturers shouldn't be pushing for releasing a powerful system at such a gross loss that everything has to be ridiculously overpriced. Combine that with the budgets that soared WAY too fast and it's simply not worth it.

[Vane_MagicCity]

Mandatory installs are so wrong on so many levels. I am just glad I never HAD to install PC games. Oh wait!

Seriously though, why wouldn't anyone want to install their games if given the option or not (PC games). Why would you want to wear out your DVD/Blu-Ray drive? Why wouldn't you want to decrease load times by loading from a HDD instead of a disc?

Really, that whole mandatory install thing is blown out of proportion.

[bigtroyjon]

True, but they already have several revenue streams besides even the hardware royalties and Gold fee: Video, Movie and TV show marketplaces, Games on Demand, the Avatar Marketplace, Premium Themes, over-priced peripherals, hosting of patches/demos, etc. Considering how the service has matured to incorporate all of these channels I think its pretty reasonable to ask for the premium experience to be ad-free.

Uhh, my point is that if somebody buys it and ends up only using the apps, they don't make any money. Therefore Gold is the way for them to monetize something and not have it be pointless for them to sell the consoles at a loss or put them on sales(like during the holidays)

Mandatory installs are so wrong on so many levels. I am just glad I never HAD to install PC games. Oh wait! Seriously though, why wouldn't anyone want to install their games if given the option or not (PC games). Why would you want to wear out your DVD/Blu-Ray drive? Why wouldn't you want to decrease load times by loading from a HDD instead of a disc? Really, that whole mandatory install thing is blown out of proportion.

I'm really struggling to understand your post, you are responding about mandatory installs but then ask why people wouldn't want an option to do it?

People do want the option which is why mandatory sucks.

[CambriaRising]

Uhh, my point is that if somebody buys it and ends up only using the apps, they don't make any money. Therefore Gold is the way for them to monetize something and not have it be pointless for them to sell the consoles at a loss or put them on sales(like during the holidays) I'm really struggling to understand your post, you are responding about mandatory installs but then ask why people wouldn't want an option to do it? People do want the option which is why mandatory sucks.

If someone only wants the apps, then they would buy a Rouku, Ps3, Wii, SmartTv, or one of the other hundred devices that support them.

Then Ms doesn't make any money at all, how does that make sense?

[OldJadedGamer]

Mandatory installs are so wrong on so many levels. I am just glad I never HAD to install PC games. Oh wait! Seriously though, why wouldn't anyone want to install their games if given the option or not (PC games). Why would you want to wear out your DVD/Blu-Ray drive? Why wouldn't you want to decrease load times by loading from a HDD instead of a disc? Really, that whole mandatory install thing is blown out of proportion.

How many PC games do you know of that have a mandatory install before you play then force you reinstall the game 4 more times in order to continue playing?

Option to install? Maybe you need to look up the definition of the word "mandatory".

[Crewnh]

MGS4 is the only example of that, wtf are you doing

[CambriaRising]

How many PC games do you know of that have a mandatory install before you play then force you reinstall the game 4 more times in order to continue playing? Option to install? Maybe you need to look up the definition of the word "mandatory".

To be fair there is only one game that does that. All others (From my personal experience) have been quick and painless. Almost unnoticeable.

[Eusis]

How many PC games do you know of that have a mandatory install before you play then force you reinstall the game 4 more times in order to continue playing? Option to install? Maybe you need to look up the definition of the word "mandatory".

Admittedly MGS4 was a one time case. I have heard of NO ONE else that did the same, probably because a lot of them were smarter about data management.

Also, I have to admit it may be the charge may be more a carryover from when Netflix streaming WAS unique to them and not all that prevalent. Now that more devices are streaming to TVs with no annual cost, and with some unique Xbox functionality stomped out (no more Party viewing!) it's looking less like a legitimate value and more that they're just being exploitative, especially offering a FREE WEEKEND just to draw people in. They may be able to coast on it for now due to many people already having 360s, but it's something we better not see with the next generation.

[Vane_MagicCity]

How many PC games do you know of that have a mandatory install before you play then force you reinstall the game 4 more times in order to continue playing? Option to install? Maybe you need to look up the definition of the word "mandatory".

1 PS3 game did that, 1. I know what OPTION means. What I meant was that when I get the option (the 360, PSP) I choose to install so I don't mind installing games on the PS3 or the PC.

Mandatory installs are no big deal when you have been playing PC games for years, I can't believe people would get bent out of shape over installs on the PS3. I would prefer not to wear out my BD Drive.

Installing 5 times would suck but that doesn't taint ALL installs on the PS3.

[OldJadedGamer]

Admittedly MGS4 was a one time case. I have heard of NO ONE else that did the same, probably because a lot of them were smarter about data management.

Yes, but the fact that the game passed certification and was allowed to release in this state says a lot about how far mandatory installs can go. Of course, this off topic but wanted to comment about the "joke" post.

[Eusis]

Yes, but the fact that the game passed certification and was allowed to release in this state says a lot about how far mandatory installs can go. Of course, this off topic but wanted to comment about the "joke" post.

I'd be more concerned if we STILL saw games like that, but that's nearly 4 years old now and the closest I've seen is Rage wanting an even larger installation allowed for it, though that also raises the issue of not having granular installs like on PSP. But you're right, this has gone on longer than it needed to.

[Lyphen]

In order to bring this back from the XMB/PS3 vs. NXE/360 debate, let me say this:

The current dash is perfect as a portal to all Xbox content. I like how everything is laid out (your content on the top left, other content just below it, and a carousel of current sale items under the heading). I also think Google and Sony are completely within their rights to serve ads for their free content channels (Youtube/Crackle).

I don't think they should be behind a paygate, but the "no ads, I have gold" thing isn't a sound solution. XBL as a premium service needs a rework.