[tinfoilhatman]

While I agree, that doesn't mean Nintendo of all companies should make games for iOS. Instead, they should make a smartphone. And keep eShop regulations in place. I believe a lot of customers would prefer a shop with less, higher quality content, even if that means more expensive games.

Do you seriously believe people are going to abandon their iOS devices for a Nintendo smartphone?!?!?!?!?

pass the kool-aid please

No Mario for you then :(

Oh well I have an insane iOS backlog including Infinity Blade 2, Modern Combat 3 and countless other great games.

Yes, really. It's actually something Nintendo already openly considers. Iwata said in an interview with German magazine Spiegel a while ago that if smartphones are indeed the future of mobile gaming, they'll probably offer one instead of developing for an existing platform.

They missed the boat by about 5 years and about a 2 billion in R&D

[wsippel]

... Come on dude, really?

Yes, really. It's actually something Nintendo already openly considers. Iwata said in an interview with German magazine Spiegel a while ago that if smartphones are indeed the future of mobile gaming, they'll probably offer one instead of developing for an existing platform.

[Platy]

I seem to remember reading an article linked on gaf saying the average ios game makes $200 dollars in profit or something?

So taking Angry Birds and Draw Something out of the equation we have an average of .... 10 dollars in profit ? =P

Stolen outright from another thread. As it has been said: any App Store revenue is a joke compared to what Nintendo currently juggles. They're pushing hardware. Anything that lowers the value of their hardware is detrimental to the above figure. This includes ports and games to other platforms.

....wow !

[Tylahedras]

The hardware makes Nintendo money argument remains true. Nintendo has had many traditional competitors for handhelds before, producing the same item (in scope) without the great IP. But Apple is not a traditional competitor, their assault on handheld gaming was not planned and it was not traditional.

I believed the smartphone would kill cameras, I believed it would kill music players and I believe it will kill portable game machines. It's a matter of when not if, one device to rule them all. So while Nintendo continues to sell hardware their strategy makes sense. Eventually Smartphones will kill their hardware sales and when they finally realize it hopefully their IP will still be relevant.

If they wall the garden and the garden dies, they will have a lot of trouble clawing their way out of it. So it's important that children who grow up with nothing but an iPhone still know who Nintendo is and what their IP means from a quality perspective. They will not know this if Nintendo doesn't show them or is replaced by competitors.

I don't think anyone is arguing that Nintendo should drop the DS and start exclusively making iOS apps. That would be silly.

[wsippel]

Do you seriously believe people are going to abandon their iOS devices for a Nintendo smartphone?!?!?!?!? pass the kool-aid please

Looking at the success of Android phones, it certainly doesn't look like Apple somehow has that market locked up.

[Mondriaan]

I guess I thought we were discussing whether Nintendo could utilise the app store in any financially rewarding way. I feel that they could, without compromising their core brand. Re-reading the OP, I realise we're actually discussing whether Nintendo should pack in their stuff and go all-in with iOS. No, no they shouldn't. Wouldn't work for either party.

Even if it's not in the OP, I think the discussion has been whether Nintendo could/would/should publish any of its games for an external platform.

[tinfoilhatman]

delete

[DangerousDave]

Well, SuperBrothers Sword & Sorcery sold a total amount of 350.000 units.

I suppose most of them has been with sales of 1$, so the game probably got revenues below 1M, maybe even close to 500k, if we take out the 30% apple share.

And we're talking about a very hyped game, being advertised at "what's new & worthy" by apple, with tons of good reviews, and that it was on top of the charts at launch and also when there was the first sale.

http://www.joystiq.com/2012/03/06/th...ths-for-110-0/

The game costed 200k, so they recovered the investment, but I don't think that they got more revenues than a lot of "similar" XBL, PSN or Steam games. Getting 100k sales (that, at 800 or 1200 points, give more revenue) is quite usual in a lot of XBL games.

http://venturebeat.com/2012/04/14/fe...-on-first-day/

[blind51de]

I always though the majority of revenue related to Angry Bird was from its merchandise.

[aznpxdd]

Looking at the success of Android phones, it certainly doesn't look like Apple somehow has that market locked up.

Sorry, but a Nintendo made smartphone and OS would be DOA.

WP7 with its fantastic software is already barely making it. And that has Microsoft's backing...

[Mammoth Jones]

Let's talk numbers. How much money does the average iOS game make? Because didn't Mario Kart 7 pull in more raw profit from Nintendo that even the BEST selling iOS game?

[tinfoilhatman]

Looking at the success of Android phones, it certainly doesn't look like Apple somehow has that market locked up.

From an APP\Gaming perspective Apple pretty much does have it wrapped up, no one is selling $500+ tablets like Apple(not even in the same galaxy) and app store sales Apple Vs everyone else is a joke.

Apple and Google now have it locked up and if Apple wouldn't have stayed exclusive to AT&T for so long it would have made it allot harder for google.

What allot of you people don't understand is companies like Sony and Nintendo just are not capable of competing with Apple\Google from a software\functionality\infrastructure perspective especially if your corporate\business user or anything but a gamer\web surfer type of user.

[beril]

Sorry, but a Nintendo made smartphone and OS would be DOA. WP7 with its fantastic software is already barely making it. And that has Microsoft's backing...

It would be awesome, there would be cheesy music in all the menues and cute animated 3d icons walking around everywhere... I actually like how gamey all their system menues and store interfaces are, even though the usability can be rather awful

[diffusionx]

And why aren't they asking the same thing of Sony, a company that's been getting its ass kicked financially?

This is like the easiest question ever to answer, especially for a game nerd who posts on forums and cares about this stuff.

Sony's gaming division is one of the few parts of the company doing well. The TV division is really hurting them, and predictably most talk online and from Kaz is about streamlining that.

Nintendo does not have a TV division. All their money is from games. I think talk of them putting Mario on iOS is insanely wrong (and comes from the same school of thought that said Apple should license Mac OS and allow clones to make beige boxes - look at how well that turned out), but it stands to reason that people talking about Nintendo's financial condition would focus on their games.

[Zeer0id]

The analysts and investors want Nintendo to make mobile games because in the short-term it would prove very financially beneficial to them. People would flock to an iOS Mario game just as easily as they might to an Angry Birds, and they might even be willing to pay a little more.

Problem then is that because prices are so low, the profit ceiling is lower, and in the long-term Nintendo wants their games exclusive since they can make money as a platform holder. Once they start releasing their games in the mobile space, it will devalue them on their core platforms, which is ultimately raising a big white flag on that business, especially because Nintendo relies so heavily on their first party franchises to sell systems.

For the investor, it's "safer" to go the mobile route, because it's almost guaranteed profits, even if over the long term things start to plateau. There's a bit of tug-of-war going on here between the company and its shareholders, since the latter can cut and run anytime if things start leveling off. In the meantime, they'll have raked in a bunch of cash. Nintendo on the other hand will be stuck in a situation they really don't want to be in.

[Ulairi]

Most of us are not willing to carry yet another device around with us, especially when all it does is play games. For me the days of dedicated gaming devices are long long long gone

Then you view portable gaming as something disposable and of little value. I disagree with your assessment.

[Ulairi]

Sorry, but a Nintendo made smartphone and OS would be DOA. WP7 with its fantastic software is already barely making it. And that has Microsoft's backing...

Nintendo is going to release a phone powered by webOS and then I'll die from excitement.
:)

Actually, I don't want Nintendo to release a phone. I like dedicated gaming devices and I don't want to lose them.

[tinfoilhatman]

Well, SuperBrothers Sword & Sorcery sold a total amount of 350.000 units. I suppose most of them has been with sales of 1$, so the game probably got revenues below 1M, maybe even close to 500k, if we take out the 30% apple share. And we're talking about a very hyped game, being advertised at "what's new & worthy" by apple, with tons of good reviews, and that it was on top of the charts at launch and also when there was the first sale. http://www.joystiq.com/2012/03/06/th...ths-for-110-0/ The game costed 200k, so they recovered the investment, but I don't think that they got more revenues than a lot of "similar" XBL, PSN or Steam games. Getting 100k sales (that, at 800 or 1200 points, give more revenue) is quite usual in a lot of XBL games. http://venturebeat.com/2012/04/14/fe...-on-first-day/

Umm Sword and Sorcery is still 4.99 and was like 5.99$ or more when it first came out, so thats more like 2 million conservatively.

[Minsc]

Well, SuperBrothers Sword & Sorcery sold a total amount of 350.000 units. I suppose most of them has been with sales of 1$, so the game probably got revenues below 1M, maybe even close to 500k, if we take out the 30% apple share. And we're talking about a very hyped game, being advertised at "what's new & worthy" by apple, with tons of good reviews, and that it was on top of the charts at launch and also when there was the first sale. http://www.joystiq.com/2012/03/06/th...ths-for-110-0/ The game costed 200k, so they recovered the investment, but I don't think that they got more revenues than a lot of "similar" XBL, PSN or Steam games. Getting 100k sales (than, at 800 or 1200 points, give more revenue) is quite usual in a lot of XBL games. http://venturebeat.com/2012/04/14/fe...-on-first-day/

Well, they did say in the article you linked:

He said two-thirds of all sales were on the iPad universal app and that three quarters of revenue were made on the universal app. He also noted that the title going on discount only accounted for 10 percent of sales, meaning the game had a potential audience that was willing to pay full price for the experience.

So it should be a little bit higher than 500k, but still in the same area. I don't think they ever really expressed unhappiness with the project, but it will be interesting to see if they see similar success on the PC or not.

Ultimately though, I don't think iOS gaming is going away any time soon. If it wasn't profitable, there would be less releases on it over time, but it seems to be the opposite to me.

[SmokyDave]

Then you view portable gaming as something disposable and of little value. I disagree with your assessment.

On the contrary, I've never enjoyed (and thus valued) portable gaming more than right now. Not carrying around a cumbersome, dedicated device and yet having access to great games is fantastic. I totally agree with his assessment.

'Handheld' does not always equal 'portable'.

[POWERSPHERE]

I will be happy to pay $40 for new Nintendo games till I or they die.

I'll never pay $40 for an iOS game.

Nintendo know whats up.

[wsippel]

Sorry, but a Nintendo made smartphone and OS would be DOA. WP7 with its fantastic software is already barely making it. And that has Microsoft's backing...

The OS is completely irrelevant. WP7 has no place in this discussion, either.

[ElFly]

Sorry, but a Nintendo made smartphone and OS would be DOA. WP7 with its fantastic software is already barely making it. And that has Microsoft's backing...

The most intelligent thing would be to replicate the kindle fire.

Android OS with locked market app.

[Glass Rebel]

Umm Sword and Sorcery is still 4.99 and was like 5.99$ or more when it first came out, so thats more like 2 million conservatively.

Umm there are two versions of Sword & Sworcery and the more expensive one was never over $4.99. Not saying he's correct but you aren't either.

[diffusionx]

Then you view portable gaming as something disposable and of little value. I disagree with your assessment.

I doubt you know this, but there are plenty of RPGs, hardcore strategy games, etc., on iOS. These games don't get a lot of attention (in favor of degraded crap like Jetpack Joyride and whatever F2P time sink garbage is popular at the moment), but they are there.

[tinfoilhatman]

Then you view portable gaming as something disposable and of little value. I disagree with your assessment.

Relative to the real world and the rest of my life yes it is of "little value", it shares space\time\money with books, music, movies and in comparison to girlfriend, house, snowboarding, backpacking, canoeing, career, dogs, mountain biking, photography gaming is of "less" value , it's something I use to kill time while I wait for other things or ride the bus\train\plane but I do enjoy my time playing games like Journey, Uncharted, Infinity Blade, Zombie Gunship and the occasional Halo greatly.

Welcome to being an adult with a real life and responsibilities

[TimeKillr]

But seriously though, I have a few friends working on iOS games, and they barely break even when all is said and done. If they had released stuff much earlier on, they'd be making a killing, but the store is filled with such an overwhelming tide of crap nowadays, nothing gets noticed.

The problem is that these people would never be able to release anywhere else but PC, maybe, where it's even harder to break out - Steam is insanely wonderful but from what I understand it takes so damn long to get on the service if you're a nobody that making money from a finished product is very difficult.

On iOS, it's very quick and simple to self-publish on the App Store, and if you do enough guerilla marketing you should be ok.

[AdrianWerner]

On the contrary, I've never enjoyed (and thus valued) portable gaming more than right now. Not carrying around a cumbersome, dedicated device and yet having access to great games is fantastic. I totally agree with his assessment. 'Handheld' does not always equal 'portable'.

As somebody who enjoys handheld gaming I'm glad that there's enough poeople who disagree with you to make handhelds still a viable option for many devs.

[Interfectum]

Well, SuperBrothers Sword & Sorcery sold a total amount of 350.000 units. I suppose most of them has been with sales of 1$, so the game probably got revenues below 1M, maybe even close to 500k, if we take out the 30% apple share. And we're talking about a very hyped game, being advertised at "what's new & worthy" by apple, with tons of good reviews, and that it was on top of the charts at launch and also when there was the first sale. http://www.joystiq.com/2012/03/06/th...ths-for-110-0/ The game costed 200k, so they recovered the investment, but I don't think that they got more revenues than a lot of "similar" XBL, PSN or Steam games. Getting 100k sales (than, at 800 or 1200 points, give more revenue) is quite usual in a lot of XBL games.

It's costs hundreds of thousands to even get your game on XBLA (it costs $100 a year for iOS) and Sword and Sworcery never actually topped the AppStore charts.

They probably would've never made that money back on XBL.

[wsippel]

The most intelligent thing would be to replicate the kindle fire. Android OS with locked market app.

Probably makes more sense to simply bolt their ES userspace on top of Integrity and be done with it. App development limited to ECMA and HTML5 (high security, stable, easy to develop for), games get low level access.

[AdrianWerner]

The problem is that these people would never be able to release anywhere else but PC, maybe, where it's even harder to break out.

I doubt it's anywhere near as hard to break out on PC as on appstore.

[Ulairi]

I doubt you know this, but there are plenty of RPGs, hardcore strategy games, etc., on iOS. These games don't get a lot of attention (in favor of degraded crap like Jetpack Joyride and whatever F2P time sink garbage is popular at the moment), but they are there.

I do know this. Until the first week of April, I had an iPhone and I own an iPad. I play those games and they aren't very good. They are simpler versions of games I can play on my PC, 3DS, Xbox, etc. Even games like Avadon play terrible on the iPad when you sit for an extended period. I am not against iOS gaming but I have no loyalty or allegiance to Apple and I'm not willing to compromise on the games I like because it's on the iPhone. I have limited time to game each day and I'd rather take out my 3DS on the train into work and play that than my iPhone. I'd rather when I'm home play on my PC or my 3DS than my iPhone or iPad.

[Haunted]

While I agree, that doesn't mean Nintendo of all companies should make games for iOS. Instead, they should make a smartphone. And keep eShop regulations in place. I believe a lot of customers would prefer a shop with less, higher quality content, even if that means more expensive games.

You are fucking crazy.

Nintendo will never seriously try to enter the smartphone market. And if they were dumb enough to attempt such a thing (which they won't), it'll be a colossal disaster of epic proportions.

The closest to Mario on phones we'll ever see might be some exclusive contract they do with some shitty Japanese-only mobile/social service like GREE or something - similar to what they did with the Philips CDi, but that's about it.

[SmokyDave]

As somebody who enjoys handheld gaming I'm glad that there's enough poeople who disagree with you to make handhelds still a viable option for many devs.

I enjoy handheld gaming. Doesn't magically make my Vita portable, nor does it mean I must look down on iOS games.

Viable is an interesting term when one unit is borderline DOA and the other missed it's already revised forecast.

[AdrianWerner]

I enjoy handheld gaming. .

So why you want it dead? And sure it's viable. 3DS is doing very well, while a year ago people foolishly thought smartphones will kill it.

[beril]

Let's talk numbers. How much money does the average iOS game make? Because didn't Mario Kart 7 pull in more raw profit from Nintendo that even the BEST selling iOS game?

from the numbers in this article

http://techcrunch.com/2012/04/24/app...s-600000-apps/

the average iphone app has made 6667 USD

holding the top grossing spot for a year would result in roughly 110M, that is about equivalent of the revenue of selling 2 million copies of a 60$ game

Mario Kart 7 has sold over 5.2 million at 40$, that's 208M in revenue.

Mario Kart Wii has sold 31 million copies; at 50$ each (though a large number is probably from bundles) that would be more than a third of the entire AppStore revenue

[tinfoilhatman]

As somebody who enjoys handheld gaming I'm glad that there's enough poeople who disagree with you to make handhelds still a viable option for many devs.

Hey that's great I'm glad it's viable and you enjoy it, it's just not for everyone.

[Haunted]

Viable is an interesting term when one unit is borderline DOA and the other missed it's already revised forecast.

Yeah, Sony does its very best to make handhelds appear not viable. The PSPGo was a disaster and the Vita is a worthy successor.


Nintendo's position in the market is safer because they produce hugely popular software and are pretty good to produce lateral shifts [doing their own thing] to differentiate themselves.

[DangerousDave]

Umm Sword and Sorcery is still 4.99 and was like 5.99$ or more when it first came out, so thats more like 2 million conservatively.

Never was 5'99. Max was 4'99 the iPad (later universal) and 3'99 the iPhone version. Also, you have to count the 30% of apple. So maybe close to a million. (It should be 1'1M, taking into account the distribution between iPad-Universal and iPhone of the game, if 100% of the sales were at max price)

But, still, is not something amazing for the most praised iPad game of the past year. A lot of similar budget XBL or Steam games got better sales.

[AdrianWerner]

Hey that's great I'm glad it's viable and you enjoy it, it's just not for everyone.

Of course it's not for everyone, but neither is smartphone gaming.

[diffusionx]

I do know this. Until the first week of April, I had an iPhone and I own an iPad. I play those games and they aren't very good. They are simpler versions of games I can play on my PC, 3DS, Xbox, etc. Even games like Avadon play terrible on the iPad when you sit for an extended period. I am not against iOS gaming but I have no loyalty or allegiance to Apple and I'm not willing to compromise on the games I like because it's on the iPhone. I have limited time to game each day and I'd rather take out my 3DS on the train into work and play that than my iPhone. I'd rather when I'm home play on my PC or my 3DS than my iPhone or iPad.

That's fine - I have a 3DS too. But you're silly if you think that people who don't want another portable taking up space in their life automatically think handheld gaming is "disposable and of little value." A lot of people are actually quite satisfied with the gaming they get from their phones, and there are lots of deep games. The value proposition can't be beat, even if you look at $15 Final Fantasy Tactics. I paid $40 for that shit twice.

Right now it's like the wild west, people are still sorting it out and working it through. Lots of good stuff is coming out and, ignoring F2P junk like Tiny Tower (and there will be a LOT to ignore), games will get better and more complex over time. There's always some game the "real gamers" claim is destroying the hobby and handing it over to the dudebros. Now it is COD and Angry Birds.

[SmokyDave]

So why you want it dead? And sure it's viable. 3DS is doing very well, while a year ago people foolishly thought smartphones will kill it.

I don't want it dead, what made you think that?

I still think it's too early to call the portable market 'healthy'.

Yeah, Sony does its very best to make handhelds appear not viable. The PSPGo was a disaster and the Vita is a worthy successor. Nintendo's position in the market is safer because they produce hugely popular software and are pretty good to produce lateral shifts [doing their own thing] to differentiate themselves.

It's certainly an interesting time.

[ElFly]

Probably makes more sense to simply bolt their ES userspace on top of Integrity and be done with it. App development limited to ECMA and HTML5 (high security, stable, easy to develop for), games get low level access.

Does nintendo use ES for anything? I thought it ran on x86 when it was released.

Maybe you are talking about something else. I am referring to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Es_%28operating_system%29

[jman2050]

Right now it's like the wild west, people are still sorting it out and working it through. Lots of good stuff is coming out and, ignoring F2P junk like Tiny Tower (and there will be a LOT to ignore), games will get better and more complex over time.

But games are already "better and more complex" and have been for a long time. They just aren't on iOS. And they never will be outside of ports of older games because the economics of the market don't support them.

[Cromulent_Word]

nevermind.

[Ulairi]

That's fine - I have a 3DS too. But you're silly if you think that people who don't want another portable taking up space in their life automatically think handheld gaming is "disposable and of little value." A lot of people are actually quite satisfied with the gaming they get from their phones, and there are lots of dep games. The value proposition can't be beat, even if you look at $15 Final Fantasy Tactics. I paid $40 for that shit twice. Right now it's like the wild west, people are still sorting it out and working it through. Lots of good stuff is coming out and, ignoring F2P junk like Tiny Tower (and there will be a LOT to ignore), games will get better and more complex over time. There's always some game the "real gamers" claim is destroying the hobby and handing it over to the dudebros. Now it is COD and Angry Birds.

The only reason FFT was released for $15 on iOS is because it was released on two platforms at full price, prior to that. Also, I picked up FFT for $20 on my Vita and it plays better than it does on my iDevices.

[Interfectum]

the average iphone app has made 6667 USD

That's such a disingenuous number. The barrier to get an application on the AppStore is $100. You are going to have a shitton of throwaway apps that bring that average down. Nintendo would be nowhere near that number if they were to release something in that market.

[TimeKillr]

I doubt it's anywhere near as hard to break out on PC as on appstore.

You doubt it?

I know it is.

If you want to go DD-only, which is the only model that makes sense now, you have very few choices:

1- Steam
2- Impulse (Gamestop download whatever)
3- GMG
4- GoG
5- Desura

There are other portals but they are strictly for casual games.

To break onto Steam is a long process and you're not guaranteed a response due to the fact that there's a SHIT TON of people who are applying. I doubt Impulse does major indie now without a "publisher", and I don't know enough about the publishing process for the other 3. GoG just recently started to sell indie games, Desura is majorly unknown at this point, so the only other way to sell it is to sell it yourself, which is LOL-worthy in terms of sales.

You can't self-publish on XBLA, PSN submissions are a fucking pain (I've done a bunch myself, believe me), and WiiWare is DOA.

What's left? iOS. Costs 99$ a year to publish any amount of titles on the App Store, very little cert process, the devices to test on are easily accessible and affordable, and the only "real" requirement that is annoying is having a computer running Mac OS, which is easily cut down by buying a Mac Mini for like 600$ and modding it so it has 8 gigs of ram.

[aznpxdd]

The OS is completely irrelevant. WP7 has no place in this discussion, either.

Heh, the OS is completely relevant. Nintendo is not capable of making a smartphone OS that can even hold a candle to Android, iOS or WP7. Plus realistically, who the hell is going to support a Nintendo made smartphone OS?

[Ulairi]

You're quite off. As i said in my GDC talk, less than 10% of our total units sold were during sales, and only a sliver of our sales are 0.99c.

Wow...that's not good news at all. They couldn't sell their game at $.99? Then the market for games like that on iOS must be really small.