[haikira]

I found this interview with Johnathon Blow to be very interesting for a couple of reasons. But the part I found most interesting, is the section about games that respect the players intelligence and time. This starts around 4:02, in the video.

He singles out Japanese games a little, but I wasn't wanting that to be the focus of the discussion.

Link

Text for people unable to check out videos.

"I want to respect my players time. So I don't want to give the player like a lot of filler. Just because I feel that the game play ought to be 60 hours long, right." "Most modern Japanese games that i play, take the opposite stance. They take the stance that the player is afraid of your game and if you're not very careful holding the players hand, through everything. Then the player will run away or just won't be able to handle it."

"They don't just give you a simple situation and let you work it out. They explicitly tell you what to do and then say "It's not hard don't be worried go ahead you try now". And then you try and you do it, and half way when you're in the middle of doing it, it stops you and it says "now remember, during the next part rotate the block to the right". Once you've done that, it eliminates the joy of discovery. Which as I've said, is something I really value. I really value that click that happens in your head, between you see something and you don't quite understand it, then suddenly you do understand it."

I wanted to discuss games that treat players as if they're intelligent. Games that don't constantly hold your hand and allow you to discover things for yourself. I think that just recently, a game like Journey is a great example. You learn the fundamentals simply by playing and experimenting. I appreciate that not every game can afford to do this, of course. I think an MMO or Flight Simulator, without tutorials and explanations would be disastrous. But I think for genres like Adventure games or Horrors, it's important.

Discuss away. What modern games do think are the best examples? What games do you think are the worst?

[Slair]

Demons/Dark Souls kinda throws you in at the deep end and leaves you to your own devices. It's not super taxing on the brain or anything but it doesn't treat you like you've never played a game before.

[SalsaShark]

Fake filler is the worst. Ive really kept away from most grinding RPGS lately because of it (unless its portable), Phil Fish probably thinks in a similar way to Blow, too bad he sucked at making a joke out of it.

The Zeboyd guys (Cthulu saves the world) are a great example of making a fluid RPG that doesnt waste your time (and also have a similar philosophy).

I know this is mostly refering to the first phrase you quoted but i think it should be noted.


As for holding your hand, well yeah, i think we can all agree. You can make a tutorial a natural part of your game, and fun. Specially if you dont start by assuming the player is a fucking idiot that needs to have everything explained by big giant word boxes on the screen and such.

Portal was a tutorial for 3/4 of the game, and even though that granted; it fits with the game's theme and story, it just felt right and rewarding.


Games just need to explain their mechanics by making you play them, not read them.

[soultron]

Demons/Dark Souls kinda throws you in at the deep end and leaves you to your own devices. It's not super taxing on the brain or anything but it doesn't treat you like you've never played a game before.

This. Playing through using a wiki is definitely helpful when you're truly "stuck," but playing it blind is also a great experience. I'm doing a bit of the former but more of the latter with my playthrough of Dark Souls right now.

The only way that game wastes your time is punishing you for forgoing the game's fundamental keys to success. But that's largely your own fault. It happens a bit at first when you're learning the game's ins and outs (being patient, staying mobile, capitalizing on openings/mistakes) but after that, if you keep fucking up, it's entirely your fault for not remembering what the game originally beat into you.

[Endo Punk]

Cherry picking certain Japanese games huh Mr Blow >_>

Valkyria Chronicles definitely demands a lot from gamers, but above all patience. Watching how the opposition plays out can get boring but very important to see where each foe is and what type of character is most appropriate for any given situation, not to mention how fast you can clear the stage.

[NeoNess]

Not the best example, but immediately came to my mind.

First time I had played a game just to have it quiz me at the end.

[TheOddOne]

Yeah, I posted this when the Phil Fish thing was going on. Pretty great stuff, do not agree with them all though.

[KenOD]

Kid Icarus: Uprising.

The game tells you what to do aye, it offers videos, it even gives you nice clues on how to do everything (spin it like a globe), but it never decides to hold your hand or force you to complete something just to understand it and then play an actual level. It actually makes fun of it a few times.

It's a feature rich game with a lot of depth, it even respects your intelligence enough to let you decide how hard each stage will be and what weapons to bring, it's all up to you because it's a well made game that doesn't believe you aren't capable of handling it.

[mclem]

I wanted to discuss games that treat players as if they're intelligent. Games that don't constantly hold your hand and allow you to discover things for yourself. I think that just recently, a game like Journey is a great example. You learn the fundamentals simply by playing and experimenting. I appreciate that not every game can afford to do this, of course. I think an MMO or Flight Simulator, without tutorials and explanations would be disastrous. But I think for genres like Adventure games or Horrors, it's important. Discuss away. What modern games do think are the best examples? What games do you think are the worst?

I'd give a quick shout to Pushmo, actually. While it'll lead you gently by the hand through the basic concepts - twice, generally, just to make really sure they've sunk in - it leaves you mostly free to discover and understand the *ramifications* of those concepts, and there's a few moves that you have to discover that you're never explicitly told about.

However, I think the archetype for just giving you enough information to start experimenting and then leaving you to your own devices has to be Spacechem. Perhaps it could benefit from a tiny bit more guidance, but the rewarding feeling of putting those basic concepts together into something that makes a mammoth molecule is incredible.

[PairOfFilthySocks]

Most modern Japanese games that i play, take the opposite stance. They take the stance that the player is afraid of your game and if you're not very careful holding the players hand, through everything. Then the player will run away or just won't be able to handle it.

WTF is this shit? Do all these indie devs just play Skyward Sword and then use that to comment on Japanese games as a whole?

[A Link to the Snitch]

Cave Story and Advance Wars. Former is simplistically complex and as such doesn't need ridiculous tutorials; on top of that, all of the game mechanics come naturally.

The latter has an optional tutorial mode that actually has legitimate maps that can be won or lost.

[2+2=5]

Do you want to know what offends my intelligence?
The protagonist talks with a npc that says that i have to go on a very dangeous place, ok, i use every single skill, superpower, bullet, mana potion, health kit to fight hordes of enemies, i jump, i solve intricate puzzles etc and at the end of the level i find that stupid, weak, powerless npc waiting for me! WTF!?!?
HOW CAN THIS BE!?!?

[Margalis]

WTF is this shit? Do all these indie devs just play Skyward Sword and then use that to comment on Japanese games as a whole?

I wish one of these places recording these videos and doing interviews would have the balls to logically follow up and ask what games they are specifically talking about.

[Ledsen]

I just finished Bulletstorm, went on to GAF and saw this thread title. I laughed.

[Alej]

Demon's Souls, you have to be smart because brute force doesn't protect you at all. :)
I'm just beginning Dark Souls right now, it seems to be the same...
From Software are japanese, am i right? So Jonathan blows.

[walking fiend]

Super Mario Galaxy; the level design is so clever it made me smile in praise

[HoodWinked]

LA noire

problem is that people that complained about the game's interrogation sections played the game like wheres waldo and looked soley at facial expressions instead of understanding the context of the situation.

the tutorials were very light and the cases got more and more difficult but it expected the players to get better at them.

also in addition to respecting the intelligence of the player it respected their maturity and the subject material was great and the dialog very well written.

[Log4Girlz]

Skyward Sword.

[LevityNYC]

Portal 2.

[Clairvoyance]

Skyward Sword.

I thought this would be the first post.

[Coen]

Journey is a perfect example. It doesn't spell out anything, it doesn't even explain anything. It's up to the player's imagination to pick up on the story and the mechanics become clear through exploration.

[Log4Girlz]

I thought this would be the first post.

I must play the song of time on my ocarina.

[BKJest]

Do you want to know what offends my intelligence? The protagonist talks with a npc that says that i have to go on a very dangeous place, ok, i use every single skill, superpower, bullet, mana potion, health kit to fight hordes of enemies, i jump, i solve intricate puzzles etc and at the end of the level i find that stupid, weak, powerless npc waiting for me! WTF!?!? HOW CAN THIS BE!?!?

I HATED this in the Uncharted games. I solve extensive puzzles that haven't been solved in generations and climb the most imposible structures. And who waits for me once I reach my destination? Hundreds of faceless goons that I have to shoot. I doesn't insult my intelligence but devalues everything I have "accomplished" in the last hour.

The prime example of "having to figure it out yourself" even though the game does a great job of actually guiding you there unnoticed is Metroid.

[MightyHedgehog]

I think we already had this thread using the same quoted material. Still, how can anyone not agree with Blow's opinion on this particular matter? I can't, as I've long-bitched about the lameness of modern games' insulting attempts to ease new players while treating them like kindergarteners with little critical thinking skill and zero patience. The average game tutorial can be some of the most uninteresting first experiences with a new game, IMO, and often acts to sap color and wonder out of the game world they all spend so much money and time building. Going forward, though, since I know the trend of lazy teaching sessions won't stop anytime soon, I'd like a check box or option at the start of a game that allows me to skip or prevent the start of any of these constant assaults on the player experience, but include this information on-demand in-game (from a pause menu) and not outside of it available only on the front menu.

A game should ideally be about trying to entice you with its new world and intrigue you with a new, but not fully known set of possibilities, leaving you to absorb the world and control and letting you alone long enough to internalize the game's early mechanics and controls. Certainly, if you can weave the game instruction seamlessly into the game world and scenario, then that's the ultimate way of doing it and a millions times better than the standard lazy approach which involves little more than a simple introduction mission to the gameplay and throwing a sentence or paragraph at you with a confirm button prompt which might not impress that knowledge upon the player nearly as effectively since their action was a response to a command given rather than an action taken by the player on their own...people pay more attention and retain more critical information when they experiment on their own as they focus on their own actions and the results...but that takes a lot more work and planning to do satisfyingly. Yes, if the game is extraordinarily complex, like a full-on flight simulator or more complicated strategy/tactics/RPG release, ambushing the the player with text commands, cinematics, and any other thing which stops play to focus attention something on-screen might be necessary. Still, I prefer an on-demand interactive instruction manual instead of being interrupted by a back-seat driver constantly stopping me to tell me what to do.

[Boss Doggie]

Honestly I thought Skyrim insulted my intelligence much more than the JRPGs I played, like Resonance of Fate and Valkyrie Profile 2. But then again people would complain that those two are "too hard".

[Riposte]

I really want Blow to list exactly what Japanese games he has played for this point of view. Like if it turned out he's only been playing Zelda, then I wouldn't be a bit surprised.

Former is simplistically complex

Like moistly dry.

(Cave Story is actually quite dumb 95% of the time. The real answer to this question is "hard games".)

[Gustav]

WTF is this shit? Do all these indie devs just play Skyward Sword and then use that to comment on Japanese games as a whole?

I think he just tries to be decent and not call out single publishers/devs by name.

[Riposte]

I think he just tries to be decent and not call out single publishers/devs by name.

I do believe he has said Zelda/Nintendo by name, so w/e.

[Gustav]

I do believe he has said Zelda/Nintendo by name, so w/e.

I just skimmed through the video again. Couldn't find any direct Zelda mention.

[Syril]

The demo of Dragon's Dogma is the worst. Whenever you get into an encounter, the companions all start shouting out the enemies' tactics and weaknesses before you can even see them firsthand. What's worse, between encounters, one of them always runs ahead to the next objective (that's already marked on your map) and urges you to follow, so you don't even feel like the party leader.

[Fantasy Final]

This video pretty much explain how modern games think your stupid all the time. Also it's Egoraptor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FpigqfcvlM

[Misterinenja]

In my experience it's the western games recently that left me feel insulted.

[Aguirre]

splinter cell 1

[MoGamesXNA]

Why are people listing games made after 1999?

[Gustav]

This video pretty much explain how modern games think your stupid all the time. Also it's Egoraptor http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FpigqfcvlM

Great video.

[codhand]

Both Witcher games.

[mclem]

Portal was a tutorial for 3/4 of the game, and even though that granted; it fits with the game's theme and story, it just felt right and rewarding.

I can only really think of tutorial content in the very first test chamber, along with a few brief instances when new mechanics are introduced. After "Speedy thing goes in, speedy thing comes out" I'm not sure there's anything that's particularly tutorial-ly, other than perhaps a brief demonstration of handling the turrets.

Are you confusing something *styled* as a tutorial - which the entire test chamber section of the game could be seen as - with something that's *actually* a tutorial?

Why are people listing games made after 1999?

Because that's the question the OP posed?

[Dabanton]

I just finished Bulletstorm, went on to GAF and saw this thread title. I laughed.

So BulletStorm doesn't respect the intelligence of the player?

[Yoshichan]

Starcraft 2, terran

[Gui_PT]

So BulletStorm doesn't respect the intelligence of the player?

Is that an actual question?

[redcrayon]

It's definitely Western games that have left me the most insulted recently.

Xenoblade, Disgaea, Etrian Odyssey and Dark Souls all pretty much left me to get on with it apart from the most basic of instructions about the more complex game mechanics.

Skyrim, Mass Effect and Uncharted all don't even let you shoot/stab at anything until they are absolutely sure you have been condescendingly told how to bloody walk in a straight line first.

At least that comes in handy for navigating the 'dungeons'.

I don't mind tutorial stuff, as long as it is skippable. What I really dislike is tutorials halfway through the game, or that offer solve one of the half-dozen puzzles for you, like in Uncharted. Adventurers must really have become dumber over the years. 'Quick, lets make this puzzle easier, get the player back to shooting mercs in the face as quick as possible, don't let them feel like they are stuck for a few minutes, they might actually find a non-combat aspect of the gameplay rewarding, like they are a treasure hunter or something!"

[Riposte]

The demo of Dragon's Dogma is the worst. Whenever you get into an encounter, the companions all start shouting out the enemies' tactics and weaknesses before you can even see them firsthand. What's worse, between encounters, one of them always runs ahead to the next objective (that's already marked on your map) and urges you to follow, so you don't even feel like the party leader.

If I understand it right, DD actually offers less of that tutorial-like information to new players than it does more experienced ones, assuming they never send their pawn online. Pawns repeat information they learn by fighting new monsters and doing quests and the ones in the demos were fully experienced.

[haikira]

This video pretty much explain how modern games think your stupid all the time. Also it's Egoraptor http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FpigqfcvlM

I actually toyed with the idea of throwing this in the OP, when I was writing it earlier. It's a good video.

Boiling it down. I think it's similar to how films should show, rather than tell. There's an art to creating a game that shows you how to play, rather than just beating you over the idea with instructions.

Also. Just to cover myself again. Despite using Blow's interview as a jumping off point. I don't agree with his singling out of Japanese games, being the worst culprits today. There's plenty of good and bad examples, from all countries.

[matrix-cat]

When I was playing Uncharted 3 there was a puzzle where I had to look for something in a big warehouse near the start of the game. I found these pressure platforms spaced out in exactly the right pattern for a car to park all four tyres on them, and I was jumping up and down on them thinking I was really clever and that I'd solved a neat puzzle all on my own. And then nothing happened. I ran around for another five minutes before finally happening over the random spot that I had to be on to trigger the scene where Drake the character discovers the thing I found minutes ago and then explains it to me. A little bit later all four of the characters in the scene had to jump on separate pressure pads to open a secret door, so Drake starts a countdown. When he reaches 1 the game pauses and puts a big X button prompt on your screen because the developers didn't trust you to remember what the most basic input in the game was.

So... not that.

[DSix]

[Gui_PT]

I enjoy the video and while I mostly agree with it, games today are way more complex and that kind "teaching" doesn't apply as well

[∀ Narayan]

EVE Online

[Frankfurt]

For every 3D Ninja Gaiden 1 and 2, there's five games like Ninja Gaiden 3 or Asura's Wrath.

[Interfectum]

Diablo 3

lol

[PuppetMaster]

Demon's Souls
Dark Souls
Braid
Limbo
Portal