[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

But we're not going after their bomb making capacity in such sting operations. That person was unable to create a bomb, and that's my problem with that approach.

Yes, we do. We work to indirect bomb makers and their supplies. Why can't you seem to understand that it's more than one part of an overall strategy.

[Vilix]

But we're not going after their bomb making capacity in such sting operations. That person was unable to create a bomb, and that's my problem with that approach.

But, he was willing to buy one that worked. That's what bothers me.

[akira28]

Yeah, I'm not buying it. That reminds me of the whole UFO conspiracy of "There's people behind the curtain, pulling the strings, from keeping the masses from knowing the real truth" thing.

He's right. The FBI have been proactive in coercing and convincing people to both join groups to inform on, and motivate groups via those informants and moles towards formulating plans of action that would incriminate them. While it's true they might have done it on their own, when someone tells you they can get you 10 lbs of C4 and ask you when are you going to do something with it, and they happen to be FBI assets, that's not a clean collar.

[Chichikov]

But, he was willing to buy one that worked. That's what bothers me.

Again, I'm not saying he's a nice person nor do I lose sleep as to what happen to anyone who is willing to go and murder people.

But this is not how the justice system should work.
We punish crime, not capacity to be persuaded to commit a crime.

It's a practical matter really -
You don't gain much by arresting those type of people (seriously, there's an endless supply of them) and you grant law enforcement with tools that are easily abused (and they have been abused in the past).

[Bulbo Urethral Baggins]

...dude, no.

Why?
Seeing that these people were organizers of Occupy Cleveland, I think it's very relevant and necessary for people who support this movement to come out in condemnation of these planned attacks.

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

But this is not how the justice system should work. We punish crime, not capacity to be persuaded to commit a crime.

Conspiracy is a crime.

It's a practical matter really - You don't gain much by arresting those type of people (seriously, there's an endless supply of them)

Except you do gain benefits as has been explained before, but you can't seem to understand.

and you grant law enforcement with tools that are easily abused (and they have been abused in the past).

Please the benefits outweigh the positives and the abuse can happen with any form of law enforcement investigation, it's not a reason to abandon all law enforcement. You just make sure the procedure is done properly, which has been the case.

[Chichikov]

Seeing that these people were organizers of Occupy Cleveland

Source?

[empty vessel]

But, he was willing to buy one that worked. That's what bothers me.

He was almost certainly cajoled, prodded, and persuaded, possibly even pestered, by a government agent to buy one that worked. In many instances, the government agent is the entity responsible for radicalizing the individual in the first place. It can border on an organized brainwashing operation. That bothers me more than a citizen's acquiescence.

Somebody already posted a link to this, but I'm going to quote from it:

Now he was in jail for a crime he might not have been able to commit — for dreaming it, thinking it, planning it, and taking what the government calls "concrete steps" to carry it out. Of course, he never did carry it out, thank God, because of the government's policy of preemption — because the FBI found out that he was in the grip of a murderous fantasy and stopped him before he could make it real. But Fred Thomas was also in the grip of something else besides fantasy, and what he was also in the grip of was the government that used its resources to make his fantasy real so that it could stop him from carrying it out. He was in the grip of a confidential informant who, over an eight-month period, kept calling him and coming to his home, and sat at the very table where I sat with Charlotte Thomas and drank coffee from a Christmas cup. And the confidential informant worked for the government — no, he worked for us, though we're not supposed to know who he is or the nature of his résumé. Fred Thomas had never committed a crime before the confidential informant came to his house and taped his conversations and turned over the tapes to a DHS agent who, in the language of the search warrant that preceded the broken-down door and the flash grenades in the Sinatra room, "remained in the area" of the Thomases' dream home while the confidential informant ate Charlotte Thomas's homemade lemon bars. Now Fred Thomas stands a good chance of dying in jail. This is not to say that he is entirely innocent, for to watch the plot he conceived unfold over time is to watch a familiar man become gradually unknowable. But he is pushed and prodded along the path of unknowability by two entities that are unknowable by design — by a confidential informant fresh out of jail, and by the government that employed him. The confidential informant is no longer confidential. His name was mentioned at a bond hearing for Fred Thomas and the other guys. It's Joe Sims, and it turns out that a lot of people knew him. The families of the conspirators knew him, obviously, and spoke cringingly of having met him. The wives and children he'd left behind knew him, because he's not the kind of man they were likely to forget. Men and women associated with militias in Georgia and South Carolina knew him, because he's a social guy who prides himself on his connections. And the law knew him, because he was facing six counts on a pending case and it was their business to keep track of him.

http://www.esquire.com/features/waff...errorists-0212

Some men, to escape jail time themselves, strike bargains with law enforcement that requires them to, well, create crime. And they're highly motivated to do it, given that nothing less than their own freedom is on the line. It's utterly perverse.

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Source?

http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/news/loc...-with-movement

LEVELAND - Occupy Cleveland canceled a scheduled rally Tuesday after a group of men connected to the organization were arrested by the FBI. In a news release, Occupy Cleveland said the five men arrested in a terror plot to blow up the Route 82 bridge in Brecksville were "in no way representing or acting on behalf of Occupy Cleveland" and Occupy is rooted in non-violent principles. Members of the movement were set to rally at the GE Lighting building in Cleveland in protest of outsourcing of jobs and corporate greed. The rally was tied into May Day, a day typically associated with protests for workers' rights. According to an FBI affidavit, the group of suspects arrested in the terror plot talked about targeting cargo ships on May 1, the day of the "fest." "Ships are a 'd--n good target," one suspect Douglas Wright allegedly said during a meeting with the other suspects, adding that all of the cops would be downtown for May Day. Another suspect, Brandon Baxter, then allegedly said, "May 1st is going to be crazy." Here are the names of the other three suspects: Anthony Hayne, Connor Stevens, Joshua Stafford. According to the FBI, the suspects showed interest in causing financial damage through attacks. Baxter advised the group that blowing up the Detroit Superior Bridge would would not stop money flowing to the "One Percent." The "One Percent" is a mantra used by the Occupy movement to represent the wealth of the top one percent in comparison to the other 99 percent. Main targets of the movement are large corporations and the global financial system. The affidavit also said the suspects discussed targeting the opening of the downtown casino, the Federal Reserve Bank and financial institution signs atop high-rise buildings in downtown Cleveland. A member of Occupy Cleveland said he saw all five suspects at a meeting for the organization Sunday. He said he considered three of them friends and they never talked about anything violent with him. Three of the suspects had references to Occupy Cleveland on what appeared to be their Facebook pages. Brandon Baxter , Joshua Stafford and Tony Hayne all said on Facebook that they worked at #OccupyCleveland and live in Cleveland, Ohio . Occupy movements through the U.S. planned May Day protests Tuesday targeting U.S. financial policies. Reports said they hoped it would be a day that would help revitalize the movement. Occupy Cleveland tweeted Tuesday afternoon "Occupy Cleveland is shocked by these allegations. We continue to be committed to creating social change through non-violence."

Read more: http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/news/loc...#ixzz1te44UIzs

[Kinitari]

I remember this thread

And that was obvious entrapment. I mean:

In the case of the Newburgh Four – where four men were convicted for a fake terror attack on Jewish targets in the Bronx – a confidential informant offered $250,000, a free holiday and a car to one suspect for help with the attack.

THAT'S entrapment. I'm not sooo sure about this case, but it isn't kosher.

[eudaemonic]

Anyways, if they'd just wait a few weeks, the bridge probably would've fell down itself. It is Cleveland, after all.

Really, this was my first thought. They'd probably be doing the community a service by making it so that the bridge needs to be completely rebuilt with better standards.

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

And that was obvious entrapment. I mean: THAT'S entrapment. I'm not sooo sure about this case, but it isn't kosher.

They didn't force him to accept it, so it's not.


http://www.thesmokinggun.com/buster/...ovement-758348

The federal probe that resulted last night in the arrest of five purported anarchists for allegedly plotting to bomb an Ohio bridge began last year at an Occupy Wall Street rally in Cleveland that was infiltrated by an informant who was directed to attend the event by his FBI handlers. It was at the October 21 OWS event that the informant first met Douglas Wright, 26, who reportedly confided details of his group’s planned attacks “against corporate America and the financial system,” according to court filings. Pictured above[below], Wright eventually served as the informant’s bridge to the four other men busted in the bombing plot--despite the fact that the quartet was “unsure” about the snitch for whom Wright vouched. Of the five men arrested, four were involved in the Occupy Cleveland movement, according to their Facebook profiles, a news story, and a federal criminal complaint.

[ConfusingJazz]

http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/news/loc...-with-movement Read more: http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/news/loc...#ixzz1te44UIzs

So, basically, the accused being organizers of Occupy Cleveland was incorrect, and the advice to Occupy Cleveland to separate themselves from the accused had already happened.

I have my problems with the Occupy movement, but building anarchist terrorists cells aren't one of them.

[GungHo]

Looks like the cast of the lost season of the Ultimate Fighter.

[Vilix]

He was almost certainly cajoled, prodded, and persuaded, possibly even pestered, by a government agent to buy one that worked. In many instances, the government agent is the entity responsible for radicalizing the individual in the first place. It can border on an organized brainwashing operation. That bothers me more than a citizen's acquiescence. Somebody already posted a link to this, but I'm going to quote from it: http://www.esquire.com/features/waff...errorists-0212 Some men, to escape jail time themselves, strike bargains with law enforcement that requires them to, well, create crime. And they're highly motivated to do it, given that nothing less than their own freedom is on the line. It's utterly perverse.

Yeah, again, if a person doesn't have a enough self control to NOT want to take innocent life and property then that person should get slammed.

[Kinitari]

They didn't force him to accept it, so it's not.

It's not just forcing someone, if a man is down on his luck and probably angry at the world - not just the country, offering him hundreds of thousands of dollars a car and other swag to get him to help you is totally unethical. Then we start asking, at what amount can anyone be bought?

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

So, basically, the accused being organizers of Occupy Cleveland was incorrect, and the advice to Occupy Cleveland to separate themselves from the accused had already happened.

Depends, you can never tell who the hell runs an Occupy group. The leaderless design is to deflect blame and direct responsibility, but at the same time put out statements claiming to distance oneself.

So leaders, at the moment, no, but they do look to be members of Occupy Cleveland. Truthfully I just goggled Occupy Cleveland and checked the first new stories. I picked the first one, made sure it wasn't someones sock puppet and posted to see what others though.

I have my problems with the Occupy movement, but building anarchist terrorists cells aren't one of them.

You're fine with that? ;P

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

http://www.clevescene.com/gyrobase/b...bridge-bombers





Three of them at thevery least do seem to be affiliated. Article title made me laugh. lol

[Bulbo Urethral Baggins]

So, basically, the accused being organizers of Occupy Cleveland was incorrect, and the advice to Occupy Cleveland to separate themselves from the accused had already happened. I have my problems with the Occupy movement, but building anarchist terrorists cells aren't one of them.

In earlier newspaper articles on Occupy Cleveland, at least one of the accused was featured and called an organizer in the story. My guess is that Occupy Cleveland is doing their best to distance themselves. But it's hard to believe many didn't know about this.

[Kinitari]

http://www.clevescene.com/gyrobase/b...bridge-bombers Three of them at thevery least do seem to be affiliated. Article title made me laugh. lol

Eh, it doesn't seem like they were leadership - how hard is it to 'work' for occupy anything?

[ConfusingJazz]

Depends, you can never tell who the hell runs an Occupy group. The leaderless design is to deflect blame and direct responsibility, but at the same time put out statements claiming to distance oneself. So leaders, at the moment, no, but they do look to be members of Occupy Cleveland. Truthfully I just goggled Occupy Cleveland and checked the first new stories. I picked the first one, made sure it wasn't someones sock puppet and posted to see what others though.

My post was just a reaction to someone accusing Occupy Cleveland of starting an armed campaign against the state.

You're fine with that? ;P

I would make a joke about them being ineffective terrorists, and playing hacky sack instead of building bombs.

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

In earlier newspaper articles on Occupy Cleveland, at least one of the accused was featured and called an organizer in the story. My guess is that Occupy Cleveland is doing their best to distance themselves. But it's hard to believe many didn't know about this.

Therin lies the the rub. The nature of each Occupy movement is designed to allow anyone to both a organizer/member and disownable/disposable at the same time in ways that aren't like most other organizations. It's actually rather smart. I'd say at the very least some are affiliated and worked on it, I think evidence to that is potentially there, but for leadership roles, there is going to need to be more footage found and then you'll have to refute that it's missattribution by the media.

See and people think I would just jump on this and not lay out a logical reasoning, and just go for the biggest claim.

My post was just a reaction to someone accusing Occupy Cleveland of starting an armed campaign against the state.

That's a fair point. Though what defines who is the group and not the group is problematic.

I would make a joke about them being ineffective terrorists, and playing hacky sack instead of building bombs.

I'd go for the mix the bong water with the chemicals and instead great Weed Bombs!

Eh, it doesn't seem like they were leadership - how hard is it to 'work' for occupy anything?

As I discuss above, it's pretty much the definition of nebulous.

[empty vessel]

I don't doubt at all that at least some were involved in the Occupy Cleveland movement. As one of your links relates, that's exactly why they were unconstitutionally targeted by the Federal government.

[140.85]

Swap Occupy and Tea Party and imagine the difference in coverage. Obama would probably call the Mayor of Cleveland to console him.

[Evlar]

Swap Occupy and Tea Party and imagine the difference in coverage. Obama would probably call the Mayor of Cleveland to console him.

This was the lead story on NPR last hour...

So you're saying that Tea Party bombers would get, uh, less coverage?

[Rentahamster]

This was the lead story on NPR last hour... So you're saying that Tea Party bombers would get, uh, less coverage?

I think the point is that Tea Party associations and blame have been laid over far more tenuous relationships than even this.

This is the thread where Gabby Giffords got shot. Ctrl+F tea party
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=418145

Notice the difference in tone.

[Kinyou]

When the FBI holds a gun to their head and tells them to seek out someone to buy explosives.

You don't need to put a gun to someones head to entrap him

1. The idea for committing the crime came from the government agents and not from the person accused of the crime. 2. Government agents then persuaded or talked the person into committing the crime. Simply giving someone the opportunity to commit a crime is not the same as persuading them to commit that crime. 3. The person was not ready and willing to commit the crime before interaction with the government agents.

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Swap Occupy and Tea Party and imagine the difference in coverage. Obama would probably call the Mayor of Cleveland to console him.

In fairness as an American I would find both horrible and want the maximum punishment for people trying to cause domestic political terrorism and violence. I like that in this country when we have an election riots and violence don't break out and by and large people don't burn houses down for political reasons.

Now will people react differently, you bet, but at the same time, you need to be able to say you would say the same for the other side.

[Evlar]

I think the point is that Tea Party associations and blame have been laid over far more tenuous relationships than even this. This is the thread where Gabby Giffords got shot. Ctrl+F tea party http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=418145 Notice the difference in tone.

I would attribute the difference in tone to the accused actually shooting an elected Federal official, and killing several other people.

[Rentahamster]

I would attribute the difference in tone to the accused actually shooting an elected Federal official, and killing several other people.

I am specifically referring to the eagerness to assign blame based on varying scant levels of evidence.

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

You don't need to put a gun to someones head to entrap him

Simply giving someone the opportunity to commit a crime is not the same as persuading them to commit that crime.

That's the distinction. Also depending on case law that quote may be over simplified or out of date, or different among the Circuits.

[Evlar]

I am specifically referring to the eagerness to assign blame based on varying scant levels of evidence.

I know you are; again, I attribute the eagerness to scapegoat with the visceral reaction to the crime committed.

That was a very angry thread. I participated in it. This thread, on the other hand, has Cleveland jokes.

[Vilix]

Originally Posted by Wikipedia: 1. The idea for committing the crime came from the government agents and not from the person accused of the crime. 2. Government agents then persuaded or talked the person into committing the crime. Simply giving someone the opportunity to commit a crime is not the same as persuading them to commit that crime. 3. The person was not ready and willing to commit the crime before interaction with the government agents.

And who posted this on Wikipedia? Does this relate to this particular case?

[JB1981]

I would like to know more about these so-called "anarchists"

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

And who posted this on Wikipedia? Does this relate to this particular case?

More important is it a valid and correct interpretation of the law.

[140.85]

This was the lead story on NPR last hour... So you're saying that Tea Party bombers would get, uh, less coverage?

I was thinking more along the lines of the tone of the coverage and the focus of the resulting media discussion - not the amount or seriousness of it.

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Here we go
http://www.justice.gov/usao/eousa/fo...9/crm00645.htm
http://www.justice.gov/usao/eousa/fo...m.htm#9-18.000

645 Entrapment—Elements Entrapment is a complete defense to a criminal charge, on the theory that "Government agents may not originate a criminal design, implant in an innocent person's mind the disposition to commit a criminal act, and then induce commission of the crime so that the Government may prosecute." Jacobson v. United States, 503 U.S. 540, 548 (1992). A valid entrapment defense has two related elements: (1) government inducement of the crime, and (2) the defendant's lack of predisposition to engage in the criminal conduct. Mathews v. United States, 485 U.S. 58, 63 (1988). Of the two elements, predisposition is by far the more important. Inducement is the threshold issue in the entrapment defense. Mere solicitation to commit a crime is not inducement. Sorrells v. United States, 287 U.S. 435, 451 (1932). Nor does the government's use of artifice, stratagem, pretense, or deceit establish inducement. Id. at 441. Rather, inducement requires a showing of at least persuasion or mild coercion, United States v. Nations, 764 F.2d 1073, 1080 (5th Cir. 1985); pleas based on need, sympathy, or friendship, ibid.; or extraordinary promises of the sort "that would blind the ordinary person to his legal duties," United States v. Evans, 924 F.2d 714, 717 (7th Cir. 1991). See also United States v. Kelly, 748 F.2d 691, 698 (D.C. Cir. 1984) (inducement shown only if government's behavior was such that "a law-abiding citizen's will to obey the law could have been overborne"); United States v. Johnson, 872 F.2d 612, 620 (5th Cir. 1989) (inducement shown if government created "a substantial risk that an offense would be committed by a person other than one ready to commit it"). Even if inducement has been shown, a finding of predisposition is fatal to an entrapment defense. The predisposition inquiry focuses upon whether the defendant "was an unwary innocent or, instead, an unwary criminal who readily availed himself of the opportunity to perpetrate the crime." Mathews, 485 U.S. at 63. Thus, predisposition should not be confused with intent or mens rea: a person may have the requisite intent to commit the crime, yet be entrapped. Also, predisposition may exist even in the absence of prior criminal involvement: "the ready commission of the criminal act," such as where a defendant promptly accepts an undercover agent's offer of an opportunity to buy or sell drugs, may itself establish predisposition. Jacobson, 503 U.S. at 550.

[Kinitari]

And who posted this on Wikipedia? Does this relate to this particular case?

... I'm pretty sure he was just quoting the legal definition of entrapment. Someone said "entrapment is gun to the head" he said "no, this is what entrapment is"

[Kinyou]

And who posted this on Wikipedia? Does this relate to this particular case?

First of all, it sure is more info than other people have so far posted on the law

And second, it doesn't relate to this particular case, I posted it because of the false perception of entrapment people seem to have. (like that it only happens when an agent puts a gun to your head)

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

... I'm pretty sure he was just quoting the legal definition of entrapment. Someone said "entrapment is gun to the head" he said "no, this is what entrapment is"

Regardless I have a better definition above with case law citation. Though it may not be current. I still need to double check that.
It is the US Attorneys Manual though
http://www.justice.gov/usao/eousa/fo...sam/index.html

[Kinitari]

Here we go http://www.justice.gov/usao/eousa/fo...9/crm00645.htm http://www.justice.gov/usao/eousa/fo...m.htm#9-18.000

After reading that, would you say that the other thread I posted, where one person was offered hundreds of thousands of dollars a car and other shit for their help

or extraordinary promises of the sort "that would blind the ordinary person to his legal duties

I mean, it really depends on that particular case, but this just sounds soooo dirty. What if the guy was just a bit pissed and down on his luck, and all of a sudden some dude offers him all this shit?

*Cough* Entrapment Elements Criminal Resource Manual at 645 http://www.justice.gov/usao/eousa/fo...9/crm00645.htm Recent Entrapment Cases Criminal Resource Manual at 646 http://www.justice.gov/usao/eousa/fo...9/crm00646.htm Proving Predisposition Criminal Resource Manual at 647 http://www.justice.gov/usao/eousa/fo...9/crm00647.htm Outrageous Government Conduct Criminal Resource Manual at 648 http://www.justice.gov/usao/eousa/fo...9/crm00648.htm

You posted your stuff two minutes before that quote :p

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

First of all, it sure is more info than other people have so far posted on the law

*Cough*

Entrapment
Elements Criminal Resource Manual at 645 http://www.justice.gov/usao/eousa/fo...9/crm00645.htm
Recent Entrapment Cases Criminal Resource Manual at 646 http://www.justice.gov/usao/eousa/fo...9/crm00646.htm
Proving Predisposition Criminal Resource Manual at 647 http://www.justice.gov/usao/eousa/fo...9/crm00647.htm
Outrageous Government Conduct Criminal Resource Manual at 648 http://www.justice.gov/usao/eousa/fo...9/crm00648.htm

[el retorno]

I don't doubt at all that at least some were involved in the Occupy Cleveland movement. As one of your links relates, that's exactly why they were unconstitutionally targeted by the Federal government.

did you every respond to me and others who proved that the FBI is not some far right wing organization that only targets leftists and muslims?

[Vilix]

Ahh, gotcha.

*stretches*

Well, I wouldn't worry about it, GAF. The media will not cover this, let alone mention those guys had anything to do with the Occupy movement. However, if these were Tea Party members...

[Rentahamster]

I know you are; again, I attribute the eagerness to scapegoat with the visceral reaction to the crime committed. That was a very angry thread. I participated in it. This thread, on the other hand, has Cleveland jokes.

Emotional duress shouldn't be a good excuse for wild accusations. If cops had been able to stop Loughner before he could injure anyone, do you really think the claims that this is all Glenn Beck and Sarah Palin's fault would be any less?

This thread, on the other hand, has Cleveland jokes.

Which says a lot about public perception about a crime or attempted crime when either the perpetrators or the victims can be assigned to 'easily' fit some kind of narrative without any further analysis.

[Napoleonthechimp]

How does blowing up a bridge further an anarchist agenda?

[Plasmid]

Dark Knight Rises viral ads

[Evlar]

Emotional duress shouldn't be a good excuse for wild accusations. If cops had been able to stop Loughner before he could injure anyone, do you really think the claims that this is all Glenn Beck and Sarah Palin's fault would be any less?

Yes, I certainly do. That's precisely my claim, in fact. There might have been a two-page thread on GAF about it. It would have burned out quickly, just like this one will.

[Angry Fork]

Manos - how do you feel about people who incite suicidal people to kill themselves? Does the person who incited it bear no fault because the person killed himself by his own hand?

We all know how much you hate the Occupy movement, it's effort to address the problems of capitalism and excess, and your support of police brutality to silence those protests. So with that being said if someone offered you say a million dollars to help coordinate an attack on them would you take it? Would you take it if it was 10 million or 50 million? Do you have a price or do you expect everyone to believe you wouldn't take up that deal if you felt you could get away with it knowing your opinionated history against them?

[Rentahamster]

did you every respond to me and others who proved that the FBI is not some far right wing organization that only targets leftists and muslims?

Especially since in 2009 DHS released a report entitled, 'Rightwing Extremism: Current Economic And Political Climate Fueling Resurgence In Radicalization And Recruitment' (which Napolitano later apologized for)

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_1...01-503544.html

report: http://www.fas.org/irp/eprint/rightwing.pdf