[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Manos - how do you feel about people who incite suicidal people to kill themselves? Does the person who incited it bear no fault because the person killed himself by his own hand?

Generally, unless there is a duty (often established by relationships), legally they don't have fault, though someone could try a reckless charge. Keep in mind I'm saying generally and also not talking about illegal acts to assist or involving a minor or an incompetent, or if the actions effects others (ie kills themselves via detonation in a public park.

We all know how much you hate the Occupy movement, it's effort to address the problems of capitalism and excess, and your support of police brutality to silence those protests.

I'll argue that I've never supported police violence or that Occupy is addressing or helping with anything, but that's not for this thread, but I felt since you put it out, I could respond.

So with that being said if someone offered you say a million dollars to help coordinate an attack on them would you take it? Would you take it if it was 10 million or 50 million?

Fuck no, I despise political violence left or right. It's one thing I like about this country (as I discussed above). Also I'm not an idiot to think somehow this is on the level or logical.

Do you have a price or do you expect everyone to believe you wouldn't take up that deal if you felt you could get away with it knowing your opinionated history against them?

I would hope most people have the common sense to think, hmm why am I being offered 10 million dollars to attack these people. Yes, this makes perfect sense isn't a rational response.

[Kinyou]

*Cough* Entrapment Elements Criminal Resource Manual at 645 http://www.justice.gov/usao/eousa/fo...9/crm00645.htm Recent Entrapment Cases Criminal Resource Manual at 646 http://www.justice.gov/usao/eousa/fo...9/crm00646.htm Proving Predisposition Criminal Resource Manual at 647 http://www.justice.gov/usao/eousa/fo...9/crm00647.htm Outrageous Government Conduct Criminal Resource Manual at 648 http://www.justice.gov/usao/eousa/fo...9/crm00648.htm

And I appreciate that, but you posted this after I quoted Wikipedia. ;)

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

And I appreciate that, but you posted this after I quoted Wikipedia. ;)

Yeah, but not after I posted the first things. :P Still you're welcome and hopefully it will be of use to posters for understanding things more to the specifics of what will go on in this case.

[Ignis Fatuus]

Manos - how do you feel about people who incite suicidal people to kill themselves? Does the person who incited it bear no fault because the person killed himself by his own hand?

I would say so. The dude made his choice. We're all influenced by forces around us with every decision we make, but what we choose to do is our responsibility. A killer can't defer blame because he was told to do it. He chose to do it. Unless there is forceful coercion I don't believe you should be allowed to pass the buck.

[Angry Fork]

So why are there such laws against inciting riots? What about Charles Manson who never killed anyone? Should he be released now?

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

So why are there such laws against inciting riots? What about Charles Manson who never killed anyone? Should he be released now?

As I said earlier.

Keep in mind I'm saying generally and also not talking about illegal acts to assist or involving a minor or an incompetent, or if the actions effects others (ie kills themselves via detonation in a public park.

[empty vessel]

did you every respond to me and others who proved that the FBI is not some far right wing organization that only targets leftists and muslims?

Yes, I did, and I'd appreciate it if you not make things up--there was never any assertion that the FBI was "some far right wing organization." Most if not all law enforcement organizations focus their illegal political activities on the left. It's part of the institutional role they play.

I don't know why you are acting offended at an assertion that the FBI targets leftists. The FBI does have a history with leftists, you know?

[Ignis Fatuus]

So why are there such laws against inciting riots?

Same reason you can't shout fire in a crowded theater.

Charles Manson who never killed anyone? Should he be released now?

He was convicted of conspiracy to commit murder, which is a very different scenario than what you're suggesting.

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Yes, I did, and I'd appreciate it if you not make things up--there was never any assertion that the FBI was "some far right wing organization." Most if not all law enforcement organizations focus their illegal political activities on the left. It's part of the institutional role they play.

You know all that paranoia isn't healthy in the long run.

[Angry Fork]

Why is inciting someone to kill themselves different than inciting to kill others? Either way someone is dead. It doesn't make one okay just because potentially more people can die in the latter. All I'm saying is it seems reasonable to put partial blame on the person who incites someone to kill themselves (since they're likely not in their right state of mind and can be easily coerced/influenced), and if that's true, then police should have partial blame put on them when they offer valuables or money to create crime to 'solve'.

[Ignis Fatuus]

Why is inciting someone to kill themselves different than inciting to kill others? Either way someone is dead. It doesn't make one okay just because potentially more people can die in the latter. All I'm saying is it seems reasonable to put partial blame on the person who incites someone to kill themselves (since they're likely not in their right state of mind and can be easily coerced/influenced), and if that's true, then police should have partial blame put on them when they offer valuables or money to create crime to 'solve'.

Nothing you're saying is validating your previous analogies. I never said it's different to incite someone to kill. It's not. Do we need to spell this out with relation to the present case? The police never intended to kill anyone and never provided any assistance that could have killed someone. Therefore they cannot be called part of a conspiracy to commit anything. The Manson comparison is really silly.

[el retorno]

Yes, I did, and I'd appreciate it if you not make things up--there was never any assertion that the FBI was "some far right wing organization." Most if not all law enforcement organizations focus their illegal political activities on the left. It's part of the institutional role they play. I don't know why you are acting offended at an assertion that the FBI targets leftists. The FBI does have a history with leftists, you know?

It was a joke.

And yes they have a history with leftists, has they have with the KKK and the National States' Rights Party within COINTELPRO.

They´ve also busted the Mob.

The leftsts just often use more illegal tactics when it comes to their political activities because they haven´t had the same kind of success the right has. That does nothing to prove the FBI is out to get leftists.

I love how your opinion exactly mirrors this in the wiki article though

In an interview with the BBC's Andrew Marr, MIT professor of linguistics and political activist Noam Chomsky spoke about the purpose and the targets of COINTELPRO saying, "COINTELPRO was a program of subversion carried out not by a couple of petty crooks but by the national political police, the FBI, under four administrations... by the time it got through, I won't run through the whole story, it was aimed at the entire new left, at the women's movement, at the whole black movement, it was extremely broad. Its actions went as far as political assassination."

[empty vessel]

It was a joke. And yes they have a history with leftists, has they have with the KKK and the National States' Rights Party within COINTELPRO.

COINTELPRO was overwhelmingly directed at the left.

They´ve also busted the Mob.

The mob is engaged in criminal acts. That does not constitute a political activity of the FBI.

The leftsts just often use more illegal tactics when it comes to their political activities because they haven´t had the same kind of success the right has. That does nothing to prove the FBI is out to get leftists.

The FBI chose political targets based upon political activity, not criminal activity. It still does.

I love how your opinion exactly mirrors this in the wiki article though

That's a good quote. I do agree with it.

[YoungHav]

This sucks, now the Feds are going to racial profile white people and monitor them with no problem cause.

All joking aside, if only COINTELPRO put 1/100th of the effort against the KKK that they did with the Panthers...

[el retorno]

COINTELPRO was overwhelmingly directed at the left. The mob is engaged in criminal acts. That does not constitute a political activity of the FBI. The FBI chose political targets based upon political activity, not criminal activity. It still does. That's a good quote. I do agree with it.

Are you completly ignoring the fact that they went after people who don´t have a leftist opinion?

[Dude Abides]

Are you completly ignoring the fact that they went after people who don´t have a leftist opinion?

I think he is saying that while they may have gone after rightist groups to some degree, the primary and overwhelming focus with respect to politically-oriented organizations and individuals was on leftists.

[el retorno]

I think he is saying that while they may have gone after rightist groups to some degree, the primary and overwhelming focus with respect to politically-oriented organizations and individuals was on leftists.

Yes and I gave a reason for that.

[Dude Abides]

Yes and I gave a reason for that.

I don't think your reason is very persuasive. Many of the groups on the left they went after were non-violent. I think the issue is that leftist groups are generally seen as more subversive than rightist groups.

[Something Wicked]

Looks like EV is making a pitch for their representation, as there is no price on fighting against the evil fascist, capitalists... ...except for the very modest fee of $5,000/week.

[Rentahamster]

Was looking around at their FB activity...

https://www.facebook.com/events/386018258086292/

Seems kinda creepy in hindsight.

[empty vessel]

The organizer/informant has been revealed: http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documen...le-azir-756123

[el retorno]

I don't think your reason is very persuasive. Many of the groups on the left they went after were non-violent. I think the issue is that leftist groups are generally seen as more subversive than rightist groups.

I never said anything about non-violence. I said they tend to use illegal means. They don´t like the current system and often break the laws to get the system they want.

[el retorno]

The organizer/informant has been revealed: http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documen...le-azir-756123

The agents mobilized Azir after receiving “an initial report of potential criminal activity and threats involving anarchists who would be attending” the “Occupy” event. While at the rally, Azir met Douglas Wright, 26, who reportedly confided details of planned attacks “against corporate America and the financial system.” Through Wright, Azir subsequently met (and secretly recorded) the other four men named in the bombing complaint.

So they said they were going to do something illegal and the FBI played along. What´s wrong with that?

[Rentahamster]

The suggestion one of the guys has about throwing tacks out the back of their getaway car to avoid escape is hilarious.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/buster/...ovement-758348

[Dude Abides]

I never said anything about non-violence. I said they tend to use illegal means. They don´t like the current system and often break the laws to get the system they want.

True, they broke lots of laws. Like laws against sitting in whites-only restaurants. Makes sense that the FBI was watching them so closely.

[empty vessel]

So they said they were going to do something illegal and the FBI played along. What´s wrong with that?

That isn't what happened, even by the FBI's own probable cause affidavit.

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

True, they broke lots of laws. Like laws against sitting in whites-only restaurants. Makes sense that the FBI was watching them so closely.

Or planting bombs.

[Dude Abides]

Or planting bombs.

Like a child who walks into the middle of a movie....

[I H8 Memes]

The suggestion one of the guys has about throwing tacks out the back of their getaway car to avoid escape is hilarious. http://www.thesmokinggun.com/buster/...ovement-758348

:D Obviously they should be using banana peels.

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Like a child who walks into the middle of a movie....

Doesn't work when you quote a different character.

[ConfusingJazz]

The suggestion one of the guys has about throwing tacks out the back of their getaway car to avoid escape is hilarious. http://www.thesmokinggun.com/buster/...ovement-758348

Its like they just watched a Roger Moore Bond film or something.

[Dude Abides]

Doesn't wrong when you quote a different character.

Then I don't wanna be right.

[SirChained]

This is clearly entrapment.

FBI: Hey guys, wanna blow some stuff up?
Guy: Idk about that
FBI: BUT we'll give you so much money! You'll be set for life! PLUS we will plan the whole thing and provide all the supplies. All you have to do is agree to the plan!

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

This is clearly entrapment.

No, it actually isn't

[YoungHav]

why does the snitch have to be black?

[Kinitari]

This is clearly entrapment. FBI: Hey guys, wanna blow some stuff up? Guy: Idk about that FBI: BUT we'll give you so much money! You'll be set for life! PLUS we will plan the whole thing and provide all the supplies. All you have to do is agree to the plan!

Nah, I don't think this is entrapment, especially considering how it went down. FBI got a wiff of some illegal shit possibly going down, they heard them essentially say "We're going to do illegal shit" and to see just how illegal, they greased a few wheels for them.

edit:

That isn't what happened, even by the FBI's own probable cause affidavit.

Wha? Man, I can't keep up.

[theBishop]

That isn't what happened, even by the FBI's own probable cause affidavit.

Yep. The FBI has been doing this to American muslims for years. NYT published an editorial last week which summarizes the program nicely:
Terrorist Plots, Hatched by the F.B.I..

I can't believe the judges in these cases are allowing such blatant entrapment.

EDIT: it's revealing how the supposed proponents of "Small Government" are also the staunchest defenders of executive authority. I never understood how that works.

[planar1280]

2 things

1. They should be called terrorists
2. OP should be fixed so they are called terrorists

[Slayven]

I see it like "To catch a predator", you have every chance to backout until you walk through the door. I mean if you say "I would love to blow shit up" and somebody magically shows up with bombs and shit and you go along with it? It is totally your fault you go to jail.

[theBishop]

I see it like "To catch a predator", you have every chance to backout until you walk through the door. I mean if you say "I would love to blow shit up" and somebody magically shows up with bombs and shit and you go along with it? It is totally your fault you go to jail.

That's not the legal standard (and shouldn't be).

[harriet the spy]

I'll argue that I've never supported police violence or that Occupy is addressing or helping with anything, but that's not for this thread, but I felt since you put it out, I could respond.

You have absolutely supported police violence in the thread about the berkeley student being maced when they were picketing.

Though, in your usual bouts of sophistry, I assume that you will content that macing is not violence.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost...&postcount=245

[IpsoFacto]

Here's another article on how these aren't anywhere close to actual terrorist plots, but just law enforcement officials creating imaginary threats by duping some clueless radicals. Terrorist Plots, Hatched by the FBI: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/29/op...-fbi.html?_r=2

The writer only mentions 22 incidents. There has been actually 40 plots that were foiled. I wish he had actually dived into the specifics.

http://www.heritage.org/multimedia/i...against-the-us

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

You have absolutely supported police violence in the thread about the berkeley student being maced when they were picketing. Though, in your usual bouts of sophistry, I assume that you will content that macing is not violence. http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost...&postcount=245

What are you babbling about? I never supported violence. The lies and slanders I have to put up with from leftists.

[harriet the spy]

What are you babbling about? I never supported violence. The lies and slanders I have to put up with from leftists.

That whole thread is filled with you supporting police violence. That your operating definition of police violence differs from that of a sane person is irrelevant. The reasons for the police to take that decision - justified or not - is irrelevant. Whatever voluntary action i can do which sends someone in the hospital is violence. Police made people go to the hospital. You support police violence. It really couldn't be more clear cut.

Lies and slander, give me a break, you fucking drama queen.

[Rentahamster]

1 Ohio bridge bomb plot suspect pleads guilty

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/b...uilty-16853388

"I don't think any of these guys intended harm to human beings," O'Shea said. "I think they just thought this was a way of making some sort of political statement. But I'm relatively confident none of these people had any desires to actually hurt anybody."

Does not compute.

[shagg_187]

5 terrorists. Nuff said; fuck the double standard.

Old Thread, I know.

[Rentahamster]

I find it depressing in light of recent tragic events, that the Brian Ross school of journalism method would have actually produced the right results in this particular case.

[SirChained]

Nah, I don't think this is entrapment, especially considering how it went down. FBI got a wiff of some illegal shit possibly going down, they heard them essentially say "We're going to do illegal shit" and to see just how illegal, they greased a few wheels for them.

Not buying it. I don't think we just suddenly started to miraculously bust a bunch of terrorist plots. FBI orchestrates and persuades others to commit these acts, in some cases even pays big cash if they agree to the plot.

[hukasmokincaterpillar]

Based on 10 years of evidence, you have to assume violence was unlikely to occur without the FBI's anthropological intervention and interaction. Almost invariably. The track record on this is astounding, and I'll grab some links if anyone is interested. Now we find NYPD out of Jurisdiction from Jersey to New Orleans, illegally spying on muslims and liberal advocacy groups.

The contempt for the rule of law is fully absorbed throughout our most coercive bureaucracies, all the guns and money niggas going crazy since this 9/11 jerk off party got off the ground. A massive new bureaucracy which, through the Iron Law of Institutions, is primarily motivated to maintain its hierarchy by any means necessary. Human beings with rights are wholly external. But no, we're not a police state. We're motherfucking Disney.