[Takuya]

Where next?

I am honestly surprised any court could back Motorola on this.

So patent infringing is okay now?

[Fjolle]

Where next? So patent infringing is okay now?

You should probably read a bit more about the case before you write more posts in this thread.

[NavNucST3]

Motorola opposed Microsoft's motion. It didn't even want it to be brought in the first place, realizing that this initiative could -- as it did -- thwart Motorola's attempted end run around the Seattle litigation. Microsoft brought its federal complaint over Motorola's alleged breach of FRAND licensing obligations in November 2010, approximately eight months before Motorola's German lawsuits against Microsoft. German courts readily grant injunctive relief against implementers of industry standards, a fact that poses considerable risk to technology companies and has led Microsoft to relocate its European distribution center from Germany to the Netherlands. But German injunctions aren't binding on a defendant until the prevailing plaintiff formally demands compliance with the injunction and meets other requirements. In particular, enforcement during an ongoing appeal requires the posting of a bond with a local court. Therefore, today's decision by the court in Seattle doesn't represent an interference with the Mannheim case per se: Motorola isn't obligated to withdraw any of its German lawsuits, and the Mannheim court is free to make whatever it deems the right decision under German law. But Motorola can't use the injunction it may (or may not) win next Tuesday to disrupt Microsoft's business in any way while the U.S. FRAND case is pending.

I'd recommend people read through the multitude of posts on FOSS patents before deciding that Motorola is somehow an innocent victim or that the US court(s) are superseding the German court(s). In my extremely biased view since I worked for Motorola multiple times...is that they should lose the FRAND case.

EDIT: From the Twitter Feed "Products presently banned in Germany by the Mannheim court include Windows 7, Xbox 360, all iPhones, all iPads, all Nokia and all HTC phones"

[industrian]

GOTT IN HIMMEL Wait, didn't Germany pull this shit with the PS3 a couple of years back?

That was the Netherlands IIRC.

[flyinpiranha]

I was not aware of this. Interesting acquisition.

They basically bought it for the Patent Wars that Apple seems to be so fond of. It's like stacking your deck!

[erpg]

I'm glad my "German courts the Texas of Europe" search came up with an informative and on-topic article:

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/201...n-center.shtml

[NemesisPrime]

Where next? So patent infringing is okay now?

Posting without reading about a subject is ok now?

This has NOTHING to do with patent infringing.

[EGM1966]

But they can't forbid them to do something in a country not under their jurisdiction. Plus, it's quite dodgy. Does the american judge have MS shares or what.

So long as the US Court isn't telling the German Court what to do and so long as it's within its rights to tell Motorola what to do it can.

Basically it's saying don't do X until we do Y under our (US Legal System) control over you (Motorola).

[Infamous Chris]

Where next? So patent infringing is okay now?

You have no idea what you're talking about.

OT, good thing this won't hold up, just like before.

[Bluemercury]

I'd recommend people read through the multitude of posts on FOSS patents before deciding that Motorola is somehow an innocent victim or that the US court(s) are superseding the German court(s). In my extremely biased view since I worked for Motorola multiple times...is that they should lose the FRAND case. EDIT: From the Twitter Feed "Products presently banned in Germany by the Mannheim court include Windows 7, Xbox 360, all iPhones, all iPads, all Nokia and all HTC phones"

Yes im sure MS is more innocent specially by getting money from Android Manufacturers...

[Polari]

Software patents FTW.

[TheOddOne]

I'm glad my "German courts the Texas of Europe" search came up with an informative and on-topic article: http://www.techdirt.com/articles/201...n-center.shtml

lol:

This exposes the fundamental flaw in the argument that a patent-friendly legal system will encourage inward investment. However much foreign companies may welcome the ease with which they can sue their rivals and obtain injunctions against them, they also know that they are also more likely to be sued and blocked by injunctions themselves. Microsoft's hurried decision to withdraw its entire distribution center from Germany shows a possible consequence of this double-edged sword: companies pull out so that patent-friendly courts can't be turned against them. As patent litigation balloons, and more cases head to Germany, other foreign companies may come to the same conclusion as Microsoft, and start taking the same defensive precautions. In which case, Germany will find that far from attracting foreign investors, its patent-friendly courts are actually driving them away.

[NemesisPrime]

Yes im sure MS is more innocent specially by getting money from Android Manufacturers...

Again... a totally different thing.

[The Albatross]

Probably late: US Courts don't over-ride German courts, but for multi-national organizations like Microsoft and Motorola, they can't act with legal independence in specific countries that have differently defined laws without also having those issues come to a head in other countries. A US Court is saying, "hold on Motorola," and Motorola -- as a multi-national organization -- is following their best interest by "holding on." Not only that, but Microsoft can appeal, and this would probably take effect like 5+ years after the ruling, even if the appeal was upheld. With major companies and major products, these always end in settlements or international agreements (ie, Microsoft can license the Motorola product in their next console for $X agreement).

This isn't US superceding German courts, it's international business, and both companies have international interests.

*edit*

For the cynics: The same idea protects, say, European stakeholders who hold stock in primarily American companies that merge... This is why the EU can reject a major acquisitions and prevent the merger in the United States, despite both companies being primarily American companies. It's not that European courts would be over-ruling American law or American courts, but rather, that both companies have European interests, and have to consider them for their best interest as multi-national organizations..

And, again, this wouldn't be a ban in Germany. Even if the ruling were upheld, which it probably wouldn't be, it would result in a nominal settlement.

[Berg]

America: World Police ;) But seriously, not a clue. Can any court just overrule a court in another country? If so, what's the point of anything then?

It's an american company. USA Governments got them by the balls.

[maquiladora]

I said wow.

[dragonelite]

Yes im sure MS is more innocent specially by getting money from Android Manufacturers...

Not the same thing.
This is the case about Motorolla asking like a shit load more for the patents with microsoft then with other licensees?

[markot]

How is this a totally different thing?

If anything this is an actual patent, covering something that actually imrpoves technology, as opposed to the 50 'swipe' patents that android is getting sued over.

And, microsoft just bought a couple patents from AOL for 1 billion, its not like 4 billion is that much.

The whole system is stupid, but saying 'this is more stupid' is ridiculous when its simply how the crap goes down mojumbo.

[Felix Lighter]

Probably late: US Courts don't over-ride German courts, but for multi-national organizations like Microsoft and Motorola, they can't act with legal independence in specific countries that have differently defined laws without also having those issues come to a head in other countries. A US Court is saying, "hold on Motorola," and Motorola -- as a multi-national organization -- is following their best interest by "holding on." Not only that, but Microsoft can appeal, and this would probably take effect like 5+ years after the ruling, even if the appeal was upheld. With major companies and major products, these always end in settlements or international agreements (ie, Microsoft can license the Motorola product in their next console for $X agreement). This isn't US superceding German courts, it's international business, and both companies have international interests. *edit* For the cynics: The same idea protects, say, European stakeholders who hold stock in primarily American companies that merge... This is why the EU can reject a major acquisitions and prevent the merger in the United States, despite both companies being primarily American companies. It's not that European courts would be over-ruling American law or American courts, but rather, that both companies have European interests, and have to consider them for their best interest as multi-national organizations.. And, again, this wouldn't be a ban in Germany. Even if the ruling were upheld, which it probably wouldn't be, it would result in a nominal settlement.

Thanks for this. So, it might not be a corrupt US Judge/Microsoft Shareholder invoking US World Police powers and overruling German Courts? That's always good to know.

[Aguirre]

ban will take place when ms release next gen console.

[Dead Man]

Wait! An American court have banned Motorola from enforcing this in Germany!?!?!

Yeah, does my head in. Surely Motorola aren't the ones enforcing this ban, the German court would be?

[Haunted]

Yeah, does my head in. Surely Motorola aren't the ones enforcing this ban, the German court would be?

It's been explained in the thread, read posts #49 #53 and #64. :)

[McLovin]

This stuff is getting out of hand. Companies are using patents solely to make money now adays. It's not even about protecting their work anymore. IMO vague patents like these shouldn't even be legal.

[Nevasleep]

Isn't this Google's fault anyway?
Trying to get their video format off the ground.

[JetBlackPanda]

This part is awesome...

...against the further distribution of (as well as an order to recall from retail and destroy) Windows 7, the Internet Explorer, the Windows Media Player and the Xbox gaming console.

Wtf

[Bluemercury]

Not the same thing. This is the case about Motorolla asking like a shit load more for the patents with microsoft then with other licensees?

maybe they just want all that Android made money back from MS???

[sangreal]

This is not unexpected. Everyone knows that Microsoft is infringing on these patents, because they are part of the h264 standard. The problem is that the standards body only included the technology in the standard because Motorola agreed to license them on FRAND terms (Fair, Reasonable and Non-Discriminatory) and they are doing nothing of the sort.

Also, Google plans to continue Motorola's crusade of suing people over standards-essential patents.

[Dead Man]

It's been explained in the thread, read posts #49 #53 and #64. :)

Yeah, I still don't understand how it is up to Motorola. Now that the court has ruled, surely German companies/distributers/whatever have to comply? I think I don't understand who this is a ban from the court, but not a ban.

[gcubed]

This stuff is getting out of hand. Companies are using patents solely to make money now adays. It's not even about protecting their work anymore. IMO vague patents like these shouldn't even be legal.

lets not get stupid here... there is absolutely nothing vague about these patents. They should be licensed under FRAND, but these aren't "swipe your finger to move the screen" patents.

[sangreal]

How is this a totally different thing? If anything this is an actual patent, covering something that actually imrpoves technology, as opposed to the 50 'swipe' patents that android is getting sued over. And, microsoft just bought a couple patents from AOL for 1 billion, its not like 4 billion is that much. The whole system is stupid, but saying 'this is more stupid' is ridiculous when its simply how the crap goes down mojumbo.

Motorola doesn't want $4Bln, they want $4Bln a year and they want it because they think the h264 decoder in Windows 7 should give them a percentage of the entire end-user price of a Windows 7 PC. 2.25% of the entire PC market

and it's different because Microsoft never agreed to license their patents to the infringing phone makers. Motorola agreed to license their patents to anyone on FRAND terms.

[dragonelite]

maybe they just want all that Android made money back from MS???

Maybe microsoft and other companies want free use of those patents.
Im not sure but if there is a android manufactor that has to pay like 10~1000 times more then the rest to microsoft that would be the same case if im not mistaken.

[Haunted]

Yeah, I still don't understand how it is up to Motorola. Now that the court has ruled, surely German companies/distributers/whatever have to comply? I think I don't understand who this is a ban from the court, but not a ban.

I'm pretty much a layman, but from what I understand, there are requirements to be met before Motorola can enforce this ban. One of these requirements is that a bond is posted in a local (in Motorola's case, US) court. MS anticipated this and won a case in the US that now prevents Motorola from meeting the requirements necessary to enforce the German ruling.


As to why these requirements are the way they are, that's better left to the guys who actually know what they're talking about like Phisheep. :p

[markot]

Motorola doesn't want $4Bln, they want $4Bln a year and they want it because they think the h264 decoder in Windows 7 should give them a percentage of the entire end-user price of a Windows 7 PC. 2.25% of the entire PC market and it's different because Microsoft never agreed to license their patents to the infringing phone makers. Motorola agreed to license their patents to anyone on FRAND terms.

Its the same as microsoft getting 5 bucks an android phone... just because the scale is larger doesnt change anything, itsbecause microsoft is infringing on so many products. They clearly didnt have an agreement with microsoft before. And most importantly, these are actual important patents not the bs microsoft shakes down others with.

[sangreal]

Its the same as microsoft getting 5 bucks an android phone... just because the scale is larger doesnt change anything, itsbecause microsoft is infringing on so many products. They clearly didnt have an agreement with microsoft before. And most importantly, these are actual important patents not the bs microsoft shakes down others with.

No, it's not the same, and I already explained why. I also didn't say the scale matters. The only thing in common between what Microsoft did and what Motorola is doing is that they both involve patents. The suggestion that Microsoft's actions are even related suggests that Motorola is being discriminatory in addition to unfair and unreasonable in violation of the FRAND principles they agreed to.

[NemesisPrime]

Its the same as microsoft getting 5 bucks an android phone... just because the scale is larger doesnt change anything, itsbecause microsoft is infringing on so many products. They clearly didnt have an agreement with microsoft before. And most importantly, these are actual important patents not the bs microsoft shakes down others with.

Seriously... you should stop. You are just inventing stuff now.

[Dead Man]

I'm pretty much a layman, but from what I understand, there are requirements to be met before Motorola can enforce this ban. One of these requirements is that a bond is posted in a local (in Motorola's case, US) court. MS anticipated this and won a case in the US that now prevents Motorola from meeting the requirements necessary to enforce the German ruling. As to why these requirements are the way they are, that's better left to the guys who actually know what they're talking about like Phisheep. :p

Ah, I think I get it now. It still makes no sense, but I know what makes no sense. If that makes any sense? Thanks!

[Doffen]

Its the same as microsoft getting 5 bucks an android phone... just because the scale is larger doesnt change anything, itsbecause microsoft is infringing on so many products. They clearly didnt have an agreement with microsoft before. And most importantly, these are actual important patents not the bs microsoft shakes down others with.

You have lost it haven't you? Microsoft has become way to kind for your taste and now you have to invent shit on them. So classy.

[Haunted]

Ah, I think I get it now. It still makes no sense, but I know what makes no sense. If that makes any sense? Thanks!

Welcome to the wonderful world of international business law. It's a right clusterfuck and rarely makes sense when looking in from the outside. (At least to me it doesn't.)

[erpg]

maybe they just want all that Android made money back from MS???

Microsoft makes ~400 million off of the massive number of Android devices yearly (for a very very large number of parents). 4 billion per year for a playback decoder (less than 70 patents, I think?) is a bit different.

One is reasonable licensing, the other is insanity. I guess Germany ignored that.

[Dead Man]

Welcome to the wonderful world of international business law. It's a right clusterfuck and rarely makes sense when looking in from the outside. (At least to me it doesn't.)

Oh, it's perfectly clear...





Nah, it's like mud.

[McLovin]

lets not get stupid here... there is absolutely nothing vague about these patents. They should be licensed under FRAND, but these aren't "swipe your finger to move the screen" patents.

on an "adaptive compression of digital video data" sounds pretty fucking vague.

[gcubed]

on an "adaptive compression of digital video data" sounds pretty fucking vague.

the title isn't the patent. Read the patent. Nothing vague about it





thats 2 paragraphs out 28 pages (some of it is in other languages). There is also 7-8 pages of diagrams of how it works.

[Noshino]

Motorola doesn't want $4Bln, they want $4Bln a year and they want it because they think the h264 decoder in Windows 7 should give them a percentage of the entire end-user price of a Windows 7 PC. 2.25% of the entire PC market and it's different because Microsoft never agreed to license their patents to the infringing phone makers. Motorola agreed to license their patents to anyone on FRAND terms.

I agree that the sum that Motorola asked for was too high, but the problem that I have is that Microsoft went ahead and used it despite knowing that they would be sued, hoping to fix it afterwards. I simply don't agree (nor support) that kind of mentality.

[Fine Ham Abounds]

This is the first thing that popped into my head after reading the thread title.

In all seriousness, this is an interesting turn of events.

I kinda wish someone would make a business law simulator game.

[NemesisPrime]

I agree that the sum that Motorola asked for was too high, but the problem that I have is that Microsoft went ahead and used it despite knowing that they would be sued, hoping to fix it afterwards. I simply don't agree (nor support) that kind of mentality.

No they didn't. FFS people should really read the stuff that came before.

[derFeef]

I agree that the sum that Motorola asked for was too high, but the problem that I have is that Microsoft went ahead and used it despite knowing that they would be sued, hoping to fix it afterwards. I simply don't agree (nor support) that kind of mentality.

This is not true at all. No offense but I hate it when people make up their own stories of how things went based on thread titles and headlines.

[Dead Man]

No they didn't. FFS people should really read the stuff that came before.

This is not true at all. No offense but I hate it when people make up their own stories of how things went based on thread titles and headlines.

So, instead of just saying 'No, you're wrong', could you maybe actually post a correction, or a source, or something?

[MrCunningham]

Large computer and electronic companies are going to send us all back to the stone age through patent infringement lawsuits.

But anyway, if it is just for H.264 video coding and playback, I'm sure MS could find a work around for that. Or settle it outside of court.

[coldfoot]

Windows 7 ban is much more important as no one buys the 360 in Germany, the land of PC gaming :)

[derFeef]

So, instead of just saying 'No, you're wrong', could you maybe actually post a correction, or a source, or something?

It got answered already and you quoted the answer already, so why ask again? It's all in this very small thread.