[lexi]

Source

A black transgender Minneapolis woman pleaded guilty to second degree manslaughter in the stabbing death of a local man, but her supporters maintain she was the actual victim in the case. As the Minneapolis Star-Tribune is reporting, 23-year-old CeCe McDonald is expected to be sentenced June 4 to three years and five months in prison for the death of Dean Schmitz, a white man. McDonald was reportedly walking past a local bar on June 5, 2011 when an altercation between her and Schmitz and other patrons erupted on the sidewalk outside. According to various reports, McDonald -- who was reportedly transitioning at the time -- said she pulled out a pair of scissors in an attempt to defend herself after the group hurled a glass at her face, and taunted her and her friends with both anti-gay and racist epithets, including "faggots," "niggers" and "chicks with d*cks." Schmitz, who allegedly had a swastika tattoo and was between the ages of 41 and 47 according to varied reports, died at the scene from a stab wound to his chest. Minneapolis City Council Member Cam Gordon is among those to defend McDonald, saying she was targeted for her race and gender. "It appears that CeCe was the victim of a hate crime that involved many people but she was the only person held by the police," Gordon wrote on his blog. "Here is another example transgender women of color being targeted for hate- and bias-related violence. It is unfortunate that in this case, as in so many, the hate crime itself appears to have been ignored."

Black trans women have two options seemingly if they are attacked in America: Die, or have the full weight of the law come down on you for defending yourself.

[Stinkles]

Well that's terrible, but was her life in danger? That's the crux of the law.

[justjohn]

She might go to jail, but at least that scum is dead.

[TheWiicast]

It's a shame but kudos for the girl for pleading guilty. Even in self defense, she still killed someone.

Very brave of her.

[Acheron]

Is Stand Your Ground in Minnesota? If not, then yes, the standard IS different.

[Funky Papa]

Jesus, can we just get along?

[hateful]

Is Stand Your Ground in Minnesota? If not, then yes, the standard IS different.

No. It is not a stand your ground state, yet.

[lexi]

Well that's terrible, but was her life in danger? That's the crux of the law.

A hurled bottle struck her cheek requiring 11 stitches.

It's a shame but kudos for the girl for pleading guilty. Even in self defense, she still killed someone. Very brave of her.

I have no doubts she was intimidated into taking the plea. What choice did she have btw? Just roll over and die? Because that's what happens most of the time in cases like this, their deaths aren't investigated, authorities don't give a single fuck.

Plenty eager to prosecute them if they live though.

[Indrid Cold1]

3 years in prison is hardly "the full weight of the law" for 2nd degree manslaughter. Be out in 18 months.

[lexi]

3 years in prison is hardly "the full weight of the law" for 2nd degree manslaughter. Be out in 18 months.

Oh well I guess it's okay then. Carry on, no injustice here. Maybe if we're lucky she'll get raped and killed in the mens' prison she's sent to.

[marathonfool]

Without knowing the details of the incident. Can't form much of an opinion. If it was only a glass and taunts hurled stated in the article, hard to imagine her life was in danger. Terrible outcome either way.

[Emitan]

fucking awful people, but i wish no one had died.

stories like this really scare me and I feel like I'm not safe by living in Texas

[botty]

What is the timeline of the events? Why didn't she call the police when things were getting out of hand?

[Log4Girlz]

I'm pretty sure stand your ground doesn't apply to anyone not white. Realistically speaking :(

[Imm0rt4l]

I wonder which bar it was around.

[ChocolateCupcakes]

The article really doesn't give much to go on....

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

I'm pretty sure stand your ground doesn't apply to anyone not white. Realistically speaking :(

Not in PA. DA's have been pretty across the board in not charging due to Mobile Castle Doctrine.

[polyh3dron]

I'm pretty sure stand your ground doesn't apply to anyone not in Florida. Realistically speaking :(

FTFY

[Truth101]

It's a shame but kudos for the girl for pleading guilty. Even in self defense, she still killed someone. Very brave of her.

The DA probably offered her a deal if she pleaded guilty and she chose that rather than risk the full sentence.

I'm just guessing here

[Timedog]

Will she get sent to men's or women's prison. If men's...uhhhhh...fuck.

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

FTFY

You've obviously never seen PA's self defense statute.

[MWS Natural]

One less bigot on the planet.

[Jobiensis]

It's hard to base an opinion with such few details. If the bottle was thrown while she was walking away and she came back that would be different than them surrounding her.

One less bigot on the planet.

Yeah I can't say I feel there has been any loss to civilization that this guy is gone.

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Black trans women have two options seemingly if they are attacked in America: Die, or have the full weight of the law come down on you for defending yourself.

Not in PA.

[Emitan]

Will she get sent to men's or women's prison. If men's...uhhhhh...fuck.

If she's placed in a women's prison I bet a whole bunch of dumbfucks will be saying she should be moved :/

[polyh3dron]

You've obviously never seen PA's self defense statute.

You're correct I haven't, I just know that Florida's Stand Your Ground legislation doesn't apply.

[Stinkles]

A hurled bottle struck her cheek requiring 11 stitches.

I have been brained with a rock, 23 stitches and stabbed with a carpet knife, 30-something stitches. In neither occasion did I actually feel like my life was threatened. Both times I was hurt and scared, but didn't actually fear for my life. I wasn't in her circumstance, so I can't speak for her, I'm just pointing out that neither violence nor injury are in themselves things that make you afraid for your life, necessarily.

[Pathetic Basement Virgin]

I thought this type of thing only happened in the south.

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

I have been brained with a rock, 23 stitches and stabbed with a carpet knife, 30-something stitches. In neither occasion did I actually feel like my life was threatened. Both times I was hurt and scared, but didn't actually fear for my life. I wasn't in her circumstance, so I can't speak for her, I'm just pointing out that neither violence nor injury are in themselves things that make you afraid for your life, necessarily.

I think being brained with a rock and stabbed are perfectly good reasons to fear for your life and use lethal force.

[polyh3dron]

If she's placed in a women's prison I bet a whole bunch of dumbfucks will be saying she should be moved :/

Regardless of it being a Men's or Women's prison there will be arguments for her being moved to the other one. And even then, she wouldn't be there much longer, having already served about 11 months if she was jailed at the time of the altercation.

[empty vessel]

A hurled bottle struck her cheek requiring 11 stitches.

Depending on other facts, this could justify lethal force in every state, notwithstanding so-called "stand your ground" laws. Self-defense laws in every state would permit lethal force to avoid grievous bodily injury. (You don't have to be in danger of losing your life or fear losing your life to justify using lethal force.) That said, there could be circumstances that would disallow the defense. (I'm talking in the abstract, I have no idea what all the circumstances in this case were.)

If she did have a solid claim of self-defense, she may well have still pleaded guilty to avoid the risk of conviction and a longer sentence. If so, this would be an example of how innocent people plead guilty simply to avoid the chance that they could be found guilty notwithstanding their innocence and be made to serve a long prison sentence. Unfortunately, these things get set in motion well before trial by the police investigation and charging decisions that are made by prosecutors. Overcharging is very common, and overcharging increases the likelihood that innocent people will plead guilty.

[lexi]

I have been brained with a rock, 23 stitches and stabbed with a carpet knife, 30-something stitches. In neither occasion did I actually feel like my life was threatened. Both times I was hurt and scared, but didn't actually fear for my life. I wasn't in her circumstance, so I can't speak for her, I'm just pointing out that neither violence nor injury are in themselves things that make you afraid for your life, necessarily.

If someone threw a bottle at me, it struck, and they were coming toward me aggressively whilst screaming transphobic slurs, It's a fair bet I would fear for my life.

[GrotesqueBeauty]

Oh well I guess it's okay then. Carry on, no injustice here. Maybe if we're lucky she'll get raped and killed in the mens' prison she's sent to.

I saw nothing in the post you're responding to that belittled her plight. I can empathize with why you are reacting emotionally, but it's hard to reconcile 3 years with "full weight of the law". Nonetheless, she has my condolences. I'd have to read more about the specifics of the case, but at a minimum it seems pretty cut and dry that she was thrust into a bad situation because of other people's ugly biases. Hard to say whether lethal force was justified without a more detailed account.

I thought this type of thing only happened in the south.

Unfortunately this type of shit happen everywhere all the time. Even here in San Francisco in the Castro district you hear about these hate crimes periodically. There's no true safe haven from bigotry.

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Depending on other facts, this could justify lethal force in every state, notwithstanding so-called "stand your ground" laws. Self-defense laws in every state would permit lethal force to avoid grievous bodily injury. That said, there could be circumstances that would disallow the defense. (I'm talking in the abstract, I have no idea what all the circumstances in this case were.)

The problem is that a person would have to be charged in the first place, go to trial, and risk a jury convicting them.

If she did have a solid claim of self-defense, she may well have still pleaded guilty to avoid the risk of conviction and a longer sentence. If so, this would be an example of how innocent people plead guilty simply to avoid the chance that they could be found guilty notwithstanding their innocence and be made to serve a long prison sentence. Unfortunately, these things get set in motion well before trial by the police investigation and charging decisions that are made by prosecutors. Overcharging is very common, and overcharging increases the likelihood that innocent people will plead guilty.

Showing the value of having a law that would prevent a DA from doing that in the first place, since that's what often happens as you point out.

[qcf x2]

Oh well I guess it's okay then. Carry on, no injustice here. Maybe if we're lucky she'll get raped and killed in the mens' prison she's sent to.

You're overreacting horribly. Getting a bottle thrown at you is usually not enough reason to stab someone to death with a pair of scissors.

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

You're overreacting horribly. Getting a bottle thrown at you is usually not enough reason to stab someone to death with a pair of scissors.

Depends on the person being attacked, health and other factors could make it more dangerous for one person than another.

[Hobbestetrician]

Yeah, 'dicks' is the word that should be censored in that article...

[Stinkles]

If someone threw a bottle at me, it struck, and they were coming toward me aggressively whilst screaming transphobic slurs, It's a fair bet I would fear for my life.

That's roughly what happened to me. I chose to make an exit on one of those occasions. But as I said, I wasn't in her shoes. She maybe never felt she had that option.

[Devolution]

You're overreacting horribly. Getting a bottle thrown at you is usually not enough reason to stab someone to death with a pair of scissors.

When people are killed for being trans and the violence has already escalated to the point of slurs and throwing bottles? She should fear for her life.

That's roughly what happened to me. I chose to make an exit on one of those occasions. But as I said, I wasn't in her shoes. She maybe never felt she had that option.

See above.

[Femmeworth]

She might go to jail, but at least that scum is dead.

The guy got off easy, she on the other hand won't. :\

Will she get sent to men's or women's prison. If men's...uhhhhh...fuck.

Either way, it's not going to be a pleasant time for her.

fucking awful people, but i wish no one had died. stories like this really scare me and I feel like I'm not safe by living in Texas

Let's get out of this state, possibly this country. :(

[Jobiensis]

Yeah, 'dicks' is the word that should be censored in that article...

I didn't even notice that, gay slur no problem, racial slur no problem, but we draw the line at dicks!

[Gentleman Jack]

What was the reason for refusing to plead not guilty?

And I'm confused about whether or not the OP is advocating for more 'stand your ground' laws in this country.

[Bombadil]

Why did she have a pair of scissors on her?

[Gaborn]

The problem is that a person would have to be charged in the first place, go to trial, and risk a jury convicting them. Showing the value of having a law that would prevent a DA from doing that in the first place, since that's what often happens as you point out.

I wholeheartedly agree with you but the problem is our system is so sclerotic as it is there is essentially no practical alternative without massive reforms that are badly needed but politicians of both parties are unwilling to even DISCUSS. Drug cases and other victim-less crimes are such a massive part of our criminal justice system (hurt further by mandatory minimums for sentences which gives people a greater incentive to fight) that there is almost not time for everything else. Cases that should be heard in days are scheduled weeks or months in advance. Our system is so sclerotic if every defendant opted to fight the charges everything would be backed up several years longer still. Justice is supposed to be swift and fair, it's more slow and based on pushing people through as fast as possible with plea deals.

[mercenar1e]

so the guy throws glass at her face and she retaliates by stabbing the person.. if she gets sent to a male prison the treatment will be similar or much much worse! good luck lol

[qcf x2]

When people are killed for being trans and the violence has already escalated to the point of slurs and throwing bottles? She should fear for her life. See above.

People are killed for being many things. That doesn't mean we should assume that a discriminated person who pleads guilty to murder by scissors should be given a full pardon because a glass was thrown.

[Gentleman Jack]

Why did she have a pair of scissors on her?

Video mentions she was some kind of fashion student. Class materials?

[smurfx]

What was the reason for refusing to plead not guilty? And I'm confused about whether or not the OP is advocating for more 'stand your ground' laws in this country.

they probably promised her less time if she just pleading not guilty. is she using a public defender? then they probably just told her to take the deal as public defenders don't really fight for you.

[ChocolateCupcakes]

I'm confused is there actually a possibility that she would be sent to a male prison or are people just speculating?

[Gentleman Jack]

they probably promised her less time if she just pleading not guilty. is she using a public defender? then they probably just told her to take the deal as public defenders don't really fight for you.

That's pretty awful. Never plead guilty. Ever.

I'm confused is there actually a possibility that she would be sent to a male prison or are people just speculating?

Not a lot of data but yes, LGBT prisoners do get sent to prisons based on their biology instead of identity. Even if she did land at a women's prison she'd be subject to harassment.