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muu
Member
(05-04-2012, 12:08 AM)
Everything was fine by the time I was busting up Hyudora heads.

Unfortunately, unless hordes of games adopt similar controls and become insanely popular I don't think he's going to stop getting flak for the control scheme. I'm sure a lot of people, myself included, sort of 'manage' with dual analog controls because they've become ubiquitous. Aiming ahead and aiming splash damage weaps like RL's are still a serious pain in the ass so I've leraned to avoid sci-fi shooters for the most part, which are particularly full of these types of weapons. People will similarly live w/ KI controls if millions of copies of many games sold that have similar schemes, if not the boos and hisses are going to be louder.
Ysiadmihi
Banned
(05-04-2012, 12:08 AM)
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Good for Sakurai. It sucks for lefties, but I'm glad he wasn't willing to sacrifice the speed of the game in order to allow more control options. I actually find myself wishing I could aim even faster than the game already allows at times.

I use a thumb stylus I got awhile back and can hold the system comfortably while still being able to reliably aim. Not so good for MP but if anyone is having comfort problems they should try one.
JordanLMiller
Member
(05-04-2012, 12:09 AM)
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Kid Icarus needs dual analog controls just as badly as MH needs lock on.

so not at all imo, but I wonder if these are the same people complaining?
SmithnCo
Member
(05-04-2012, 12:09 AM)
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He's right. The stylus is far faster and more accurate than a second nub would be. Which allows for faster and more frantic gameplay in turn.

I can't speak for everyone obviously, but I've had zero hand problems with the scheme and am glad he went with it.

Never used the stand once.
Anth0ny
Member
(05-04-2012, 12:09 AM)
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Hated them at first, but I've gotten used to it.

The correct solution is a new Kid Icarus on Wii U that uses Wiimote pointer controls.
Grisby
Member
(05-04-2012, 12:10 AM)
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It's not that the controls are difficult to understand but for me it was uncomfortable to play.
Raptomex
Member
(05-04-2012, 12:10 AM)
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People complain too much. I'm a lefty, the stand was okay, I used it here and there, and I was able to play with the default control scheme, yes my hand cramped, so what? You stop and play again later or you push through. I completed the story and will be going back to it.
EmCeeGramr
If ghosts needed to breathe, dead people would use up all the air and we'd suffocate
(05-04-2012, 12:10 AM)
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Actually reading the rest of the article, Sakurai does seem to claim that there was a technical reason that they didn't provide a dual analog option as well, but doesn't elaborate:

Adding to this issue is the fact that Uprising supports the Circle Pad Pro, which adds a second stick to the 3DS, but only to allow for left-handed play - yet it still doesn't allow gamers to control Pit with dual-stick controls.

"Considering how close to the limit we pushed the 3DS during development, it's a miracle that we were even able to provide support for left-handed controls at the point of completion," Uprising director Masahiro Sakurai told me in an e-mail interview. "Providing support for independent analog control was something that was technically impossible."

Rez
(05-04-2012, 12:10 AM)
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I'll take "What is the problem with the old-guard of Japanese game design" for 500 points
impact
Member
(05-04-2012, 12:10 AM)
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Originally Posted by JordanLMiller

Kid Icarus needs dual analog controls just as badly as MH needs lock on.

so not at all imo, but I wonder if these are the same people complaining?

At least everyone agrees MH needs dual analog controls
Air Zombie Meat
Member
(05-04-2012, 12:10 AM)
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The controls work fine but I do find them uncomfortable. Can end up quite sore after a session. And fuck using that stand, just makes things worse for me.
rpmurphy
Member
(05-04-2012, 12:10 AM)
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Originally Posted by Orayn

You know what obviates the need for the stand? Having legs.

http://i.imgur.com/bgXXl.jpg?1

(Yes, that is some amazing camerawork on my part.)




I'm quietly hoping it's something they'll include in the patch.

Playing with no stylus no stand no leg support master race here, u jelly?
Sophia
Member
(05-04-2012, 12:10 AM)
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Originally Posted by The_Technomancer

That's definitely an exaggeration. I've put over fifty hours into the game and I've used the stand like...once

That's a step up from me. I used it never because the stand was always lower than holding the damn system.
zroid
Member
(05-04-2012, 12:10 AM)
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Originally Posted by BGBW

Wouldn't you need triple analogue to replicate the controls; One to move Pit, one to move the camera and one to aim?

Unless you're telling me you're suggesting the old aim at the edge method of camera rotation which would be terrible for this game.

That's totally true but the fact is that a pseudo dual analogue control scheme that uses the face buttons as an alternative is already implemented. Yeah the system will have a lower skill threshold compared to the default scheme, but come on. There's no excuse to not support the CPP in this way.

Now that 3DS supports patching, there's really no excuse.
Kokonoe
Banned
(05-04-2012, 12:11 AM)

Originally Posted by Ysiadmihi

Good for Sakurai. It sucks for lefties, but I'm glad he wasn't willing to sacrifice the speed of the game in order to allow more control options. I actually find myself wishing I could aim even faster than the game already allows at times.

I use a thumb stylus I got awhile back and can hold the system comfortably while still being able to reliably aim. Not so good for MP but if anyone is having comfort problems they should try one.

That's not sacrificing. Controls should be up to the player, doesn't mean they can't have both options.
Orayn
Member
(05-04-2012, 12:11 AM)
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Originally Posted by Anth0ny

Hated them at first, but I've gotten used to it.

The correct solution is a new Kid Icarus on Wii U that uses Wiimote pointer controls.



Do want. So badly.
codhand
Member
(05-04-2012, 12:12 AM)
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Just beat the game, probably my GOTY so far, but honestly some levels were literally taunting you with how long and hand cramp inducing they were. Some levels felt awfully close to 30 minutes long! With that said I used the CTA grip, which helped a lot, not sure I coulda done some of the more marathon style levels without it.
Like the hat?
Member
(05-04-2012, 12:12 AM)
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That isn't how you're supposed to use quotation marks
Alex
Member
(05-04-2012, 12:12 AM)
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Originally Posted by JordanLMiller

Kid Icarus needs dual analog controls just as badly as MH needs lock on.

so not at all imo, but I wonder if these are the same people complaining?

Monster Hunter is about my favorite franchise, so nope. Kid Icarus is one of the worst controlling games I've ever played. There's nothing really eccentric but misunderstood about it's controls, it's just crippled around the form factor and hardware.

It'd be so much better on the Wii with the remote it's not even funny, and I *hate* the Wii remote.
Deadly Cyclone
Pride of Iowa State
(05-04-2012, 12:12 AM)
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Thanks for the replies. I think I'll pick this up now if you don't always need the stand.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
(05-04-2012, 12:13 AM)
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Originally Posted by Kokonoe

That's not sacrificing. Controls should be up to the player, doesn't mean they can't have both options.

Everytime I hear this it makes me rage slightly because I know the only reason people are making that argument is because they're used to dual analogue, regardless of the fact that DA would be quantifiably worse for this game. Why aren't people upset that the game doesn't also include joystick support, or that its not touch only? For that matter, why aren't people upset that not all Playstation games use Move now, since its an option for control?
Hale-XF11
Member
(05-04-2012, 12:13 AM)
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Even if you wanted dual circle pad support, you would get slaughtered in online multi-player games. It wouldn't even be close.
SmithnCo
Member
(05-04-2012, 12:14 AM)
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Originally Posted by Wiggler

Even if you wanted dual circle pad support, you would get slaughtered in online multi-player games. It wouldn't even be close.

You would get totally slaughtered on higher solo difficulties too.
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
(05-04-2012, 12:14 AM)
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Originally Posted by -MB-

I guess a somewhat valid excuse to not include circle pad pro dual analogue scheme from the getgo,
is because that would have stopped some from even trying the stylus controls and just go for dual analogue just because they are used to that setup.

There is some irony here in that a lot of people say nobody tries anything new in games, but make a game with a new control scheme and a lot of other people will say that you're stupid and doing it wrong.

Originally Posted by kazuma_pt

sit back and watch everyone say "the controls are great, you just have to master them!", "shit man, options suck! forget about that dual analogue shit!"

Opinion, preference: "I did not like the controls in Uprising, and holding the system cramped my hand."

A lot of people literally, flatly state "these are the worst controls ever in a handheld game" or similar flat claims. Granted, this is common. When a lot of people get a frowny face upon first trying a game, they rush to tell everyone it's the most horribler game of all time. (Then get pissed off when people roll their eyes and don't 'respect their opinion'.)

Others try the game for five minutes and throw it at the wall, refusing to even give it a chance.
Alex
Member
(05-04-2012, 12:15 AM)
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Originally Posted by Wiggler

Even if you wanted dual circle pad support, you would get slaughtered in online multi-player games. It wouldn't even be close.

Luckily, the online play is complete shit, so it's not a worry.

Thanks for the replies. I think I'll pick this up now if you don't always need the stand.

You can balance it on your leg just fine, all the stand does is make for a way to take the strain off your hand. I still prefer to play off the stand though, makes it more reliable for the 3D and I like the screen closer.
zroid
Member
(05-04-2012, 12:15 AM)
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Originally Posted by Alex

Monster Hunter is about my favorite franchise, so nope. Kid Icarus is one of the worst controlling games I've ever played. There's nothing really eccentric but misunderstood about it's controls, it's just crippled around the form factor and hardware.

It'd be so much better on the Wii with the remote it's not even funny, and I *hate* the Wii remote.

I don't know how you can say this when it's a demonstrable fact that people exist who love the controls and are highly skilled with them. The controls don't need fixing, they just need an alternative that's less alienating. There's a difference between something that's "crippling" and something that's "difficult".

Not saying you need to adapt or even that the game is better because of its controls, but you're being dramatic.
Sophia
Member
(05-04-2012, 12:15 AM)
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Originally Posted by Wiggler

Even if you wanted dual circle pad support, you would get slaughtered in online multi-player games. It wouldn't even be close.

Forget multiplayer. You'd get slaughtered in the single player. I don't think the last five stages or so would even be possible with dual analog above a certain difficulty.

Originally Posted by Alex

Luckily, the online play is complete shit, so it's not a worry.

*death glare*
ScreenSplitter
Member
(05-04-2012, 12:15 AM)
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Yeah actually, right analog would be so slow compared to touch screen.
The Hermit
Member
(05-04-2012, 12:15 AM)
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Sorry Sakurai, I love the game, but it turned my left hand into a claw. I don't blame you though, I blame the terrible DS design.
Ysiadmihi
Banned
(05-04-2012, 12:15 AM)
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Originally Posted by Kokonoe

That's not sacrificing. Controls should be up to the player, doesn't mean they can't have both options.

Dual analog simply is not fast enough for this game. People would complain that it's too hard if CPP support was included but the pace was kept.
BGBW
Maturity, bitches.
(05-04-2012, 12:16 AM)
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Originally Posted by Zeer0id

Now that 3DS supports patching, there's really no excuse.

There is one, time spent on patching this is time not spent of SmashU and I know which one I'd rather have.

And why bother pleasing the vocal minority? What's the worst they can do, not buy the sequel? By the time it comes out in 2037 we will have all forgotten this issue.
Kokonoe
Banned
(05-04-2012, 12:16 AM)

Originally Posted by The_Technomancer

Everytime I hear this it makes me rage slightly because I know the only reason people are making that argument is because they're used to dual analogue, regardless of the fact that DA would be quantifiably worse for this game. Why aren't people upset that the game doesn't also include joystick support, or that its not touch only?

I don't say this by the fact that i'm use to dual analog, I say this because my experience with the game left me with the opinion that the controls are terrible. I prefer to play FPS with mouse and keyboard, not a controller.

Honestly, I don't think it would be worse, it would certainly make my experience better with this title. Phantom Hourglass didn't bother me in the slightest once I tried it, but this game in my opinion just isn't designed with everyone in mind for controls.
-MB-
Member
(05-04-2012, 12:16 AM)
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Originally Posted by The_Technomancer

Everytime I hear this it makes me rage slightly because I know the only reason people are making that argument is because they're used to dual analogue, regardless of the fact that DA would be quantifiably worse for this game. Why aren't people upset that the game doesn't also include joystick support, or that its not touch only? For that matter, why aren't people upset that not all Playstation games use Move now, since its an option for control?

Or maybe people just cannot get used to the stylus aiming?
Vane_MagicCity
Banned
(05-04-2012, 12:16 AM)
I am a leftie so I didn't bother picking this game up. Also, having to sit down and use a stand defeats the purpose of a handheld. Shit it sounds more tied down than any current gen wireless controller. That's doing it wrong.

After the two DS Zelda games and Skyward Sword, I have learned my lesson. Controllers and K/M have worked for many years for a very good reason, because they are easy to use. I am sick of these new control methods being forced on us. I also believe that the reason traditional controls are rarely offered is because they know most people would use them instead of the touch/motion controls.
clemenx
Member
(05-04-2012, 12:17 AM)
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Is thinking the 3DS is too small doing it wrong too?

Because I like the controls but the 3DS can suck it with its minimal shoulder buttons.
SmithnCo
Member
(05-04-2012, 12:17 AM)
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Originally Posted by BGBW

There is one, time spent on patching this is time not spent of SmashU and I know which one I'd rather have.

And why bother pleasing the vocal minority? What's the worst they can do, not buy the sequel? By the time it comes out in 2037 we will have all forgotten this issue.

:[

Truth bomb to the heart.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
(05-04-2012, 12:18 AM)
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Originally Posted by Kokonoe

I don't say this by the fact that i'm use to dual analog, I say this because my experience with the game left me with the opinion that the controls are terrible. I prefer to play FPS with mouse and keyboard, not a controller.

Honestly, I don't think it would be worse, it would certainly make my experience better with this title. Phantom Hourglass didn't bother me in the slightest once I tried it, but this game in my opinion just isn't designed with everyone in mind for controls.

I don't see how you could think that DA wouldn't be worse for the game unless you only played the first couple of stages. The pace just requires the spinning camera and fast aiming of the stylus. I mean that honestly, I don't understand where you're coming from.
Snookie
Member
(05-04-2012, 12:18 AM)
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It's not my stylus hand. My left hand tends to cramp up after about 20 minutes. But I'm also old. Idk
aeolist
Member
(05-04-2012, 12:18 AM)
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If the game had Metroid Prime Hunters-style controls I could play it

The whole "flick to turn" thing kills it for me, and I don't like the dash controls much either.
SolarKnight
Member
(05-04-2012, 12:19 AM)
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Originally Posted by Kaijima

I stand behind the idea that KI:U should have included a CCP dual stick mode purely to shut up complaints about it and provide direct contrast between playing it with dual slidepad control and playing it the way the levels (even on foot levels) are designed around the stylus controls.

Preeetty much. I've played 30+ hours and the only time my hands have ever been close to hurting were the very first time when I still didn't really get how the controls worked. Not to mention I've yet to even take the stand out of the box.

Seriously, dual analog controls would work worse than the current ones, but the game really needed them so people would just stop complaining already -__-
Orayn
Member
(05-04-2012, 12:19 AM)
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Originally Posted by -MB-

Or maybe people just cannot get used to the stylus aiming?

I hate to say this, but they should probably suck it up. The game* was designed around them in the same way Starcraft II was designed around using a mouse and keyboard.

*Flying sections. I wouldn't mind CPP support for ground sections, and I think that'd be a wash.
Air Zombie Meat
Member
(05-04-2012, 12:19 AM)
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Is there anyone here that actually uses the stand? Seems like including it has backfired a bit considering how many people are under the impression that it's required.
Ysiadmihi
Banned
(05-04-2012, 12:19 AM)
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Originally Posted by aeolist

If the game had Metroid Prime Hunters-style controls I could play it

The whole "flick to turn" thing kills it for me, and I don't like the dash controls much either.

I don't mind the controls but I can agree I would have preferred a fixed reticle while on the ground.
shidoshi
GameFan alumnus
ganguro preacher
(05-04-2012, 12:19 AM)
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Originally Posted by SteeloDMZ

It's a control method that requires practice. Once mastered it, it's almost perfect.

You are perfectly allowed to believe that, just like I'm allowed to believe that opinion is complete BS. I found Uprising's on-ground segments to be completely awful because of the control, no matter how long I played the game.
MoogleWizard
Member
(05-04-2012, 12:20 AM)
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Originally Posted by Kokonoe

I don't say this by the fact that i'm use to dual analog, I say this because my experience with the game left me with the opinion that the controls are terrible. I prefer to play FPS with mouse and keyboard, not a controller.

Honestly, I don't think it would be worse, it would certainly make my experience better with this title. Phantom Hourglass didn't bother me in the slightest once I tried it, but this game in my opinion just isn't designed with everyone in mind for controls.

For how long have you played the game? It's way too fast for analog aiming, it would never work. I understand how you could not like it, the controls certainly take some getting used to, but they're the best solution with the hardware, I really don't think the frantic speed of the game would work with analog.
Dash Kappei
Not actually that important
(05-04-2012, 12:20 AM)
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Most people also hate on pointer aiming for FPS in favour of sucky dual analog, so yeah.
Most people are wrong.
My opinion > other's. :P
Myriadis
Member
(05-04-2012, 12:20 AM)
So what. The controls in Super Smash Bros 64 are also horrible and no one complains about it anymore.
rollingstart
Member
(05-04-2012, 12:20 AM)

Originally Posted by Rez

I'll take "What is the problem with the old-guard of Japanese game design" for 500 points

hey now, the guys behind Lair similarly defended its poor controls.

Sakurai just needed to add "Kid Icarus walks when I want him to about 8 out of 10 times."
Rez
(05-04-2012, 12:21 AM)
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Originally Posted by Kaijima

There is some irony here in that a lot of people say nobody tries anything new in games, but make a game with a new control scheme and a lot of other people will say that you're stupid and doing it wrong.

This is the most lazy, nondescript defense imaginable. It can be rewritten to apply to literally any bad system.

If you design a system first AND THEN fit it to the human-machine, you're doing it so, so wrong. This is UI design 101. You can't design something in a vacuum and then try and apply it to a human. They needed lots of people in there early, telling them this was inappropriate and uncomfortable for a large portion of people before it was too late to fix it. Certainly LONG before it came time to balance and fundamentally design levels. I don't understand how they could have overlooked this.
Last edited by Rez; 05-04-2012 at 12:23 AM.
zroid
Member
(05-04-2012, 12:21 AM)
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Originally Posted by BGBW

There is one, time spent on patching this is time not spent of SmashU and I know which one I'd rather have.

And why bother pleasing the vocal minority? What's the worst they can do, not buy the sequel? By the time it comes out in 2037 we will have all forgotten this issue.

Well from the sound of it, Nintendo is planning to turn this into one of their "evergreen" titles. It's definitely in their best interest to have the game in a form where it's amenable to the many people who are intimidated.

It may or may not be a vocal minority who dislike the controls, but I think it's guaranteed that the minority's vocalizing is scaring off potential buyers.

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