[SmithnCo]

So what. The controls in Super Smash Bros 64 are also horrible and no one complains about it anymore.

People say SB64's controls are bad?

[muu]

There is some irony here in that a lot of people say nobody tries anything new in games, but make a game with a new control scheme and a lot of other people will say that you're stupid and doing it wrong.

People always chant for 'change' while they bitch if it takes them even an inch out of their comfort zone. Dismissing touch gaming, calling motion controls 'waggle' and not giving it a second thought... short-sightedness among the 'core' gamers is pretty amazing stuff.

[vid]

It's a control method that requires practice. Once mastered it, it's almost perfect.

I'm completely on board with this. If we ever see a sequel on the 3DS or Wii U, I hope they don't water it down with dual-analog controls, it plays exactly as it should.

[Bumhead]

I'm not going to be rude to people who do find the control scheme frustrating/painful, because it really is down to personal preference, but I just wish those vocally apposing the system would actually say that rather than just mindlessly trashing the system.

Saying you don't like the control scheme because you personally find it uncomfortable is fine. Bitching and whining about it, like so many reviews did (and the whole thing with Yahtzee the other day) just sounds ridiculous to me.

I'm absolutely fine with the controls. The stylus control feels fantastic to me, and I've also never used the stand. I understand that people aren't so keen and I understand why, but hey, it's one of those things.

[Myriadis]

People say SB64's controls are bad?

I can at least tell about myself. It killed any fun I had with this game.

[Leondexter]

Sorry, you included a stand with your game, therefore it obviously should never have been on a portable system in the first place. This would've made a great Wii game. The controls are bad because there's only one action button, not because of the touch screen.

[Orayn]

I'm completely on board with this. If we ever see a sequel on the 3DS or Wii U, I hope they don't water it down with dual-analog controls, it plays exactly as it should.

I say include them, don't design around them, and have the game flash a snarkily-worded "WARNING! YOU ARE PROBABLY GOING TO GET SMOKED!" message when you try to use them in multiplayer or on high difficulty levels.

[Gospel]

Is thinking the 3DS is too small doing it wrong too? Because I like the controls but the 3DS can suck it with its minimal shoulder buttons.

Nah. I think the square edges on the 3DS and the weight are the reasons for the discomfort.

But ever since I stopped gripping the system too hard, I don't have any issues on that end anymore.

[Alex]

I don't know how you can say this when it's a demonstrable fact that people exist who love the controls and are highly skilled with them. The controls don't need fixing, they just need an alternative that's less alienating. There's a difference between something that's "crippling" and something that's "difficult". Not saying you need to adapt or even that the game is better because of its controls, but you're being dramatic.

There are crazy fuckers out there that will champion *anything*, I don't really care what a hard core fanbase for a still relatively niche game says is OK.

The controls are uncomfortable and clunky and it's not because of some hidden genius, the game design isn't that deep or nuanced, it's because the form factor of the hardware can't support it properly. You can struggle through it, but it's never an ideal

It's worth it for the content of the game, because it's a good game, but it'd be better on the Wii, easily.

I do agree however that dual analog would be worse, under the current design of the game. But in my opinion for the hardware it's on the design should either be different or it shouldn't be on it (the 3DS).

The game* was designed around them in the same way Starcraft II was designed around using a mouse and keyboard.

Yeah, that's an apt comparison. Totally traditional PC RTS controls vs fucked up leg balancing rail shooter played with a pen that's not like anything else on the platform and has gotten widespread complaints.

[Vane_MagicCity]

I'm not going to be rude to people who do find the control scheme frustrating/painful, because it really is down to personal preference, but I just wish those vocally apposing the system would actually say that rather than just mindlessly trashing the system. Saying you don't like the control scheme because you personally find it uncomfortable is fine. Bitching and whining about it, like so many reviews did (and the whole thing with Yahtzee the other day) just sounds ridiculous to me. I'm absolutely fine with the controls. The stylus control feels fantastic to me, and I've also never used the stand. I understand that people aren't so keen and I understand why, but hey, it's one of those things.

If you understand why people aren't so keen, why do you say their opinions sound ridiculous?

[EmCeeGramr]

This is the most lazy, nondescript defense imaginable. It can be rewritten to apply to literally any bad system. If you design a system first AND THEN fit it to the human-machine, you're doing it so, so wrong. This is UI design 101. You can't design something in a vacuum and then try and apply it to a human. They needed lots of people in there early, telling them this was inappropriate and uncomfortable for a large portion of people before it was too late to fix it. Certainly LONG before it came time to balance and fundamentally design levels. I don't understand how they could have overlooked this.

That's a bit of an assumption.

[Rez]

That's bit of an assumption.

I struggle to imagine play-testers, as a large collective, giving overwhelmingly positive feedback regarding the controls.

Maybe I'm missing something obvious.

I mean, hey, the stand implies they got some bad feedback at some point, and did what they could to bandaid it, but it certainly implies that -- if nothing else -- they started listening to the feedback (whether it came early or late) at a point where they were in too deep to fundamentally change anything.

[Orayn]

Yeah, that's an apt comparison. Totally traditional PC RTS controls vs fucked up leg balancing rail shooter played with a pen that's not like anything else on the platform and has gotten widespread complaints.

On the ground? It's a lot like Metroid Prime Hunters and most FPS games on DS.

[Schnei871]

"Smash Bros. led to similar misunderstandings when it first came out," Sakurai said. "Some people, including within the company, commented that they couldn't imagine a worse game.

Holy shit. That's the first thing I've ever heard Nintendo say that illustrated any doubt in one of their products ever. Crazy.

Urge to get 3ds rising... Redesign is coming right?.... right!?

[UncleSporky]

Now that 3DS supports patching, there's really no excuse.

"Considering how close to the limit we pushed the 3DS during development, it's a miracle that we were even able to provide support for left-handed controls at the point of completion," Uprising director Masahiro Sakurai told me in an e-mail interview. "Providing support for independent analog control was something that was technically impossible."

Whoops.

[Bullza2o]

There's nothing wrong with the controls. It just takes time to get used to.

Oh and I constantly fear that my L button will break soon, that's the only negative.

[KarmaCow]

Actually reading the rest of the article, Sakurai does seem to claim that there was a technical reason that they didn't provide a dual analog option as well, but doesn't elaborate:

"Technically impossible" sounds fishy since MGS has dual analog controls, but I don't make games so meh.

[Wiggler]

Luckily, the online play is complete shit, so it's not a worry.

o_O Does not compute.

But ever since I stopped gripping the system too hard, I don't have any issues on that end anymore.

This can't be stated enough. It really makes a difference when you catch yourself tensing up and/or simply gripping the system and stylus too hard.

It helps to let your breath out, relax your limbs and then get back to playing again.

That being said, I play almost exclusively with the CPP for the extra added comfort, though I realize not everyone wants to make that investment. It's worth it though if you really love the game and want to play it a lot.

[Bumhead]

Sorry, you included a stand with your game, therefore it obviously should never have been on a portable system in the first place. This would've made a great Wii game. The controls are bad because there's only one action button, not because of the touch screen.

So an optional accessory equals your game should have been on a console now? Cool.

If you understamd why people aren't so keen, why do ou say their opinions sound ridiculous?

Read the post again.

I never said their opinion was ridiculous. I said the way those opinions are made is ridiculous, vs the way those who do find the controls to be fine generally acknowledge it's a very love it or hate it relationship.

[EmCeeGramr]

I struggle to imagine play-testers, as a large collective, giving overwhelmingly positive feedback regarding the controls. Maybe I'm missing something obvious. I mean, hey, the stand implies they got some bad feedback at some point, and did what they could to bandaid it, but it certainly implies that -- if nothing else -- they started listening to the feedback (whether it came early or late) at a point where they were in too deep to fundamentally change anything.

Sakurai can be eccentric, but he's inclusive and loves to include options and content, something Iwata noted made him very different from Miyamoto. I have to imagine that there's a weird story behind that stuff beyond "didn't think of it."

[SeanR1221]

iOS touch controls are terrible, but these? Get used to them!

[To Far Away Times]

The controls definately have an adjustment period, but I really can't picture the game any other way. Dual analog would be too slow and imprecise for this game.

[Zeer0id]

The controls are uncomfortable and clunky and it's not because of some hidden genius, the game design isn't that deep or nuanced, it's because the form factor of the hardware can't support it properly. You can struggle through it, but it's never an ideal.

I completely respect your opinion and this is why I'm trying to advocate an alternative. But I simply cannot agree, as I have my own personal experience of finding the controls more than adequate. I would be lying if I said I was a natural from the very beginning, but I frankly don't see my skill improving with any other set-up.

Sakurai is being prideful, there's no question, and I hate that that's happening, because the game deserves to be loved by more people. But please, don't accuse those of us who like the controls of somehow being duped or of being nothing but crazies who will defend Nintendo to the death. It's just not true.

[UncleSporky]

This can't be stated enough. It really makes a difference when you catch yourself tensing up and/or simply gripping the system and stylus too hard. It helps to let your breath out, relax your limbs and then get back to playing again.

BREAKING NEWS

In defence of Kid Icarus's Controls. Wiggler: "You doing it wrong."

[Zekes!]

For someone who hasn't had the chance to play KI:U yet, what exactly is the issues with the controls?

[RurouniZel]

Hated them at first, but I've gotten used to it. The correct solution is a new Kid Icarus on Wii U that uses Wiimote pointer controls.

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES!! This is what I want!

[-MB-]

iOS touch controls are terrible, but these? Get used to them!

Ain't happening for me, I gave it long enough, they're not clicking for me, hence why I stopped playing.
It's a shame because the rest of the game is damn good.

[UncleSporky]

iOS touch controls are terrible, but these? Get used to them!

Kid Icarus controls are great after an hour or two, whereas iOS controls are bad forever.

[Gospel]

For someone who hasn't had the chance to play KI:U yet, what exactly is the issues with the controls?

In addition to what I addressed a few posts up, the controls here are too different from any games you've ever played or not played in your life.

That's essentially what's wrong with them. They are too different from the norm. People don't want to adjust to something different.

[Kangi]

For someone who hasn't had the chance to play KI:U yet, what exactly is the issues with the controls?

Combination of people's unfamiliarity with stylus controls and people who are doin' it wrong.

[LeleSocho]

The number of people complaining the bad controls are way higher than normal so it means that isn't really a good work on that side, this is confirmed by the fact that the game is bundled with a stand (if the controls were comfortable enough there were no need of it).
The game it's still the more interesting stuff Nintendo pulled out in years it just controls horribly.

The same control scheme by the way would've worked greatly with the wiimote+nunchuck.

[Ysiadmihi]

For someone who hasn't had the chance to play KI:U yet, what exactly is the issues with the controls?

The only serious problem with the controls is the touchy dash mechanic. That, and people who don't understand that this game would be unplayable with dual analog.

[Vane_MagicCity]

So an optional accessory equals your game should have been on a console now? Cool. Read the post again. I never said their opinion was ridiculous. I said the way those opinions are made is ridiculous, vs the way those who do find the controls to be fine generally acknowledge it's a very love it or hate it relationship.

LOL, vocally oppose vs mindlessly trashing. Got it!

[JJConrad]

It's not my stylus hand. My left hand tends to cramp up after about 20 minutes. But I'm also old. Idk

That's where I've had problems, specifically at my pinky because my right hand and left index finger supports none of the system's weight. I never considered that complaints of cramping where about the stylus.

[Apdiddy]

I played the game using the stand and had no problems with the control setup during the flying sections. The walking sections took me awhile to adjust, but by the end of the game, I was loving it.

[PhoReal]

I have, honestly, found no problem with KI:U's controls. But, then I'm fairly adaptive.

This. I had no issues either. The cmoplaints remind me of similar ones about Resident Evil tank controls. Some people are incapable of adapting.

[Sophia]

For someone who hasn't had the chance to play KI:U yet, what exactly is the issues with the controls?

The stylus controls are closer to aiming with the Wii pointer than they are a dual stick setup. It takes some adjusting to, but once you get it down you realize you couldn't possibly play the game any other way. It's simply too fast paced.

[pramath]

The controls aren't difficult, they're unconventional. Once you get the hang of them, it's hard to imagine a more intuitive setup.

[Vane_MagicCity]

The controls definately have an adjustment period, but I really can't picture the game any other way. Dual analog would be too slow and imprecise for this game.

Well, they wouldn't be if they were designed with dual analog in mind.

[rpmurphy]

For someone who hasn't had the chance to play KI:U yet, what exactly is the issues with the controls?

Using the stylus to aim means that it's more difficult to hold the 3DS. There's a stand, but some people don't want to use it. You could play without a stylus and just using your thumb, but not everybody is able to do that well. Some people want an alternate solution: to use the CCP as dual analog so that they can use the second stick for aiming and camera control instead of using the touchscreen.

[Tookay]

So what. The controls in Super Smash Bros 64 are also horrible and no one complains about it anymore.

Huh?.

I don't even understand this or Sakurai's comment about Smash. There's nothing obtuse about Smash's control... it frankly makes more sense than any 2D fighter.

[Ysiadmihi]

Well, they wouldn't be if they were designed with dual analog in mind.

Sure, and you could play SC2 with a pad if you dumbed it down enough as well.

[Drencrom]

When a handheld game needs a peripheral to make it playable with the intended control scheme, you're doing it wrong afaik.

Specific enough?

[chickdigger802]

I don't get why people blame controls. I found the ground levels for the most part, to be pretty terrible, even if the game had awesome controls.

[PhoReal]

When a handheld game needs a peripheral to make it playable, you're doing it wrong afaik.

You don't need it.

[Kangi]

When a handheld game needs a peripheral to make it playable, you're doing it wrong afaik.

"Needs"?

[SolarKnight]

When a handheld game needs a peripheral to make it playable, you're doing it wrong afaik.

Except it doesn't. There's a difference between an "option" and a "necessity".

[SmithnCo]

When a handheld game needs a peripheral to make it playable, you're doing it wrong afaik.

Plenty of people haven't even used the stand.

[Bumhead]

LOL, vocally oppose vs mindlessly trashing. Got it!

Again, no. Go and read the post again.

There is a clear and obvious difference between saying "Yes, Kid Icarus' controls work for me, but I understand why they don't for others", and comments like these.

[rpmurphy]

Huh?. I don't even understand this or Sakurai's comment about Smash. There's nothing obtuse about Smash's control... it frankly makes more sense than any 2D fighter.

I think Sakurai was talking about how Smash was an extremely different fighting game from the Street-Fighter-influenced games that dominated in the 90's.