[DR2K]

You're all just tripping.

[stupei]

When developer told consumers 'you are doing it wrong', something went SERIOUSLY wrong.

Good thing he doesn't actually say that, or I might have to be worried.

It's not an opinion that there is clearly a superior way to approach the game in order to get the best out of how it was designed. That's true of every game and while it can be boiled down to "you're doing it wrong," I'm not sure how offering advice to people who don't seem to know how to approach the controls and helping everyone better understand why design decisions were made is a bad thing.

[EmCeeGramr]

Because this isn't the first time Nintendo has refused to give us traditional controls when they could have.

Kid Icarus Uprising features multiple control schemes, just like Sakurai's previous game Super Smash Bros. Brawl, and neither forces touch or motion controls.

Kid Icarus Uprising features multiple control schemes, just like Sakurai's previous game Super Smash Bros. Brawl, and neither forces touch or motion controls.

Kid Icarus Uprising features multiple control schemes, just like Sakurai's previous game Super Smash Bros. Brawl, and neither forces touch or motion controls.

Kid Icarus Uprising features multiple control schemes, just like Sakurai's previous game Super Smash Bros. Brawl, and neither forces touch or motion controls.

Kid Icarus Uprising features multiple control schemes, just like Sakurai's previous game Super Smash Bros. Brawl, and neither forces touch or motion controls.

Kid Icarus Uprising features multiple control schemes, just like Sakurai's previous game Super Smash Bros. Brawl, and neither forces touch or motion controls.

[Vane_MagicCity]

Sure, KI uses the stylus controls a lot, however, it is also a fact that they are also completely optional since the game allows you to never even touch the bottom screen at all if you want to.

So why not dual analog? The game supports the CPP but not dual analog, that's crazy since the main purpose of the CPP's existence is dual analog.

[Kai Dracon]

Why do people need to tell me how I want/need to play a game?

Again: why haven't people with this attitude been griping that Microsoft won't let them play every Xbox shooter with KB/M since that is "obviously the standard for playing shooters" according to the expert gamers?

I actually saw a video on the Nintendo channel about this. It may have been Iwata asks. This is the key part: He was being pushed to use motion controls. I have had this in mind throughout this whole thread. He didn't want them but was "pushed" into it. If he had refused, the pushing may have become an order.

This is kind of a conspiratorial stretch. The context in the Iwata Asks made it sound as if Aonuma's team was not equipped to use M+ well, and considered dropping it. And the Wii Sports members were brought in to share design knowledge and tech. The jaunty phrasing from the Eguchi is the typical stuff you hear from Japanese developers relating their stories.

[Boss Doggie]

Hahahaha honestly I'm slowly starting to say: "Hey, it's Vane", but I feel generous.

When developer told consumers 'you are doing it wrong', something went SERIOUSLY wrong.

Good thing the developer didn't say that!

Great, enjoy your touch controls. No one has asked that they removed but there should have been options for more traditional controls. Funny how that works, one side is just saying "we would like dual analog in addition to the other controls" and the other side is saying "sit down and shut up, only our opinion matters".

Actually I agree on options - I was just simply laughing at your stance on how dual sticks are somehow magically superior (especially that attempt to make "one side" sound so innocent). Of course, I can see the posts changing into "how come I can't win with dual analog set-up" and such. But hey!

[Busaiku]

Alright let's put this to bed already. If you aren't holding it like this: you're doing it wrong. No stand, no legs, just stick the bottom-right corner of the system in your right palm, so it rests on the bottom-left corner of your palm. Curl stylus around to success. This is how I played Metroid Prime Hunters, and it works just as fine for Kid Icarus. (Warning: may not work with baby-hands.)

You don't need to wrap all your remaining fingers around the stylus.
I just use my thumb and index finger.

[Neiteio]

As the numerous user pictures in this thread show, you don't need the stand. I play with the stylus controls, I play holding the system in front of my face without the stand, I play with 3D all the way up, and it plays just fine. The controls are wonderful. If you need to balance the system, rest it on your palm, your pinky or hell, even your leg. This isn't rocket science, for chrisssakes. It took longer to learn and grow comfortable with dual analog back in the day than it did this control scheme, and this control scheme is functionally superior, absolutely.

Much ado about nothing, I say, and people skipping because of this overblown bullshit are missing a modern-day Nintendo classic packed full of fantastic characters, moments and awesome production values. Instead they should open their mind and not expect to be a master of a new scheme right from the first minute. Then they can actually ease themselves into learning the game's unique rhythm and see just awesome the controls are, which is to say VERY awesome. Hell, sometimes I boot up the game for the sheer joy of moving the camera, it's that fun.

And word to the wise: Max out horizontal and vertical aiming speed on land and in the air, and max out reticule stopping speed. You barely need to "swipe" the screen in this fashion. Super-precise for righties and lefties. Easy. Effortless. And then the ground game will begin to show its depth, especially in multiplayer, which is incredibly addictive, btw.

[stupei]

So why not dual analog? The game supports the CPP but not dual analog, that's crazy since the main purpose of the CPP's existence is dual analog.

I don't get it.

You complain that IN THEORY you THINK Nintendo forced developers to do something they didn't want to do with the control scheme.

You're also very upset that Sakurai wasn't interested in precisely what you want from the control scheme in his game and... wish Nintendo had forced him to include it?

[Baller, PhD]

What kind of stylus are you using?

The one that came with the system. If the game needs to be played with something else then that should have been included in the box along with the stand.

If you need several accessories to properly control a game without pain...

[Roto13]

Exactly. The fact that there is even a need for this thread means that the Kid Icarus controls are a failure of game design. The game's director shouldn't need to tell me to "relax." I don't grip my pencils like that, never have, and my hand fucking hurts after playing Kid Icarus for more than 20-30 minutes at a time. That is not a failure on my part as a consumer, it's a failure of the developer.

Nope. Sorry. Other people can do it. You can't. Learn how they do it and do it. Failure's on you.

[UncleSporky]

So why not dual analog? The game supports the CPP but not dual analog, that's crazy since the main purpose of the CPP's existence is dual analog.

Because

"Considering how close to the limit we pushed the 3DS during development, it's a miracle that we were even able to provide support for left-handed controls at the point of completion," Uprising director Masahiro Sakurai told me in an e-mail interview. "Providing support for independent analog control was something that was technically impossible."

[SolarKnight]

So why not dual analog? The game supports the CPP but not dual analog, that's crazy since the main purpose of the CPP's existence is dual analog.

Did you miss his quote about that same subject that was posted in this thread?

[Vane_MagicCity]

Kid Icarus Uprising features multiple control schemes, just like Sakurai's previous game Super Smash Bros. Brawl, and neither forces touch or motion controls. Kid Icarus Uprising features multiple control schemes, just like Sakurai's previous game Super Smash Bros. Brawl, and neither forces touch or motion controls. Kid Icarus Uprising features multiple control schemes, just like Sakurai's previous game Super Smash Bros. Brawl, and neither forces touch or motion controls. Kid Icarus Uprising features multiple control schemes, just like Sakurai's previous game Super Smash Bros. Brawl, and neither forces touch or motion controls. Kid Icarus Uprising features multiple control schemes, just like Sakurai's previous game Super Smash Bros. Brawl, and neither forces touch or motion controls. Kid Icarus Uprising features multiple control schemes, just like Sakurai's previous game Super Smash Bros. Brawl, and neither forces touch or motion controls.

Saying something six times convinces me.

[thetrin]

The one that came with the system. If the game needs to be played with something else then that should have been included in the box along with the stand. If you need several accessories to properly control a game without pain...

I need a full sized stylus to play ANYTHING on the DS. Again, I have large hands. Instead of bitching and moaning in this thread, why don't you just say "hey, that's not a bad idea. Thanks thetrin!"

Why shake your fist at people who will never meet or listen to you, when you can just fix the fucking problem and MOVE ON WITH YOUR LIFE.

[EmCeeGramr]

Saying something six times convinces me.

Well pointing out more relevant historical precedent before didn't seem to grab your attention because it got in the way of your conspiracy theory.

(also what I posted six times was fact, not opinion, so there's nothing to "convince" you of there)

[Vane_MagicCity]

I don't get it. You complain that IN THEORY you THINK Nintendo forced developers to do something they didn't want to do with the control scheme. You're also very upset that Sakurai wasn't interested in precisely what you want from the control scheme in his game and... wish Nintendo had forced him to include it?

I never said I wished Nintendo had forced him to use dual analog.

[Karsticles]

Saying something six times convinces me.

You make it sound like it's possible to disagree without being ignorant.

If you don't think you can play Kid Icarus without the stylus, then you are either ignorant, or a moron for ignoring the facts that people are feeding you.

Oh I see. I guess I missed the part where I was supposed to have to work for my fucking entertainment. I mean Jesus, have you guys forgotten why you play games in the first place? But I guess I'm just a big baby!

That's how I felt when I played Mario the first time. I was like "what is this running and jumping crap? Why isn't the game playing for me like it should be?"

Video games involve a bit of effort, even a bit of work. This is the case for every single good video game ever made.

[Baller, PhD]

Nope. Sorry. Other people can do it. You can't. Learn how they do it and do it. Failure's on you.

Oh I see. I guess I missed the part where I was supposed to have to work for my fucking entertainment. I mean Jesus, have you guys forgotten why you play games in the first place?

But I guess I'm just a big baby!

[Kai Dracon]

Also, one other thing:

The existence of this thread (and those like it) proves KI:U is fundamentally flawed in the same way that six years of gamers bitching all over the Internet about the Wii proves motion controls are inherently bad and never should have been invented.

Take that as you will.

[muu]

I love you guys. But this is crazy: My pinky, joint and wrist all hurt just looking at that.

your pinky is the strongest finger in your hands. Doing this also makes it so you're 'lifting' half the weight from both sides instead of pulling down on the edge. Main reason why people complain of wrist pain when they're grabbing only w/ one hand is because they're essentially making their holding hand the fulcrum of a long bar. Should have learned on the first physics/statics class that that's an inefficient way to keep mass balanced.

[stupei]

I never said I wished Nintendo had forced him to use dual analog.

Okay, so then you're fine with dual analog not being in the game and don't wish to force its inclusion. Cool, problem solved!

[thetrin]

I dunno. I just use the stand and a pen-sized stylus. No issues here. Then again, I usually play at my desk. I can see why the stand would piss people off, but the game DOES come with a free stand. It's not like it costs extra.

[Chacranajxy]

Saying something six times convinces me.

It did make you notice it.

[SteeloDMZ]

Exactly. The fact that there is even a need for this thread means that the Kid Icarus controls are a failure of game design. The game's director shouldn't need to tell me to "relax." I don't grip my pencils like that, never have, and my hand fucking hurts after playing Kid Icarus for more than 20-30 minutes at a time. That is not a failure on my part as a consumer, it's a failure of the developer. Also this.

What the fuck? So if a group of people on a message board complains that Dark Souls is an excruciatingly difficult game, then it is a failure of game design, right?

And why do I mention that game, because like Icarus, it takes a lot of time to master it, but some people will never do it and therefore they blame the game.

[Oni Link 666]

It's amazing how almost 2 months later people are still arguing about the controls.

Also, I think it's quite disrespectful to put quotation marks around something Sakurai didn't actually say.

[Vane_MagicCity]

Well pointing out more relevant historical precedent before didn't seem to grab your attention because it got in the way of your conspiracy theory. (also what I posted six times was fact, not opinion, so there's nothing to "convince" you of there)

No really, I am convinced that some developers are arrogant enough to screw up the controls so bad that they need to include another piece of hardware to make them work for everyone and then tell everyone that they are doing it wrong.

I no longer believe Nintendo forced this control scheme, that gets Nintendo off the hook. I do believe that Nintendo has forced the control schemes in the last three Zelda games but that's a different topic.

As others have said, having the stand as a pack in is admitting the controls aren't very good and having a pack in stand for a handheld game. That is insane but atleast Nintendo is off the hook.

[thetrin]

What the fuck? So if a group of people on a message board complains that Dark Souls is an excruciatingly difficult game, then it is a failure of game design, right? And why do I mention that game, because like Icarus, it takes a lot of time to master it, but some people will never do it and therefore they blame the game.

No, you see, because no one should work for their entertainment. Everything should be given to us.

[Vane_MagicCity]

Okay, so then you're fine with dual analog not being in the game and don't wish to force its inclusion. Cool, problem solved!

Sure, I won't be buying it so fuck it. Isn't it interesting though that YOU are offended that people want that OPTION?

[Boss Doggie]

What the fuck? So if a group of people on a message board complains that Dark Souls is an excruciatingly difficult game, then it is a failure of game design, right? And why do I mention that game, because like Icarus, it takes a lot of time to master it, but some people will never do it and therefore they blame the game.

Exactly.

By that logic pretty much every video game out there are all failures of game design.

The amount of emotions and hyperbole this thread has released is worth the spectacle though.

[Vane_MagicCity]

It's amazing how almost 2 months later people are still arguing about the controls. Also, I think it's quite disrespectful to put quotation marks around something Sakurai didn't actually say.

5+ years after the Wii launched, people still don't like motion controls. Now that 2 months doesn't seem like much time does it.

[UncleSporky]

I like how since the complainers are so dead set on the stand being an admission of horrible controls, yet the stand is not required for comfortable play, they're essentially arguing that a free bonus should not have been given out so as not to admit how bad the game is.

I earnestly believe that there'd be 50% less bitching if no stand had been included. People would've dealt with it and enjoyed the best game Nintendo's put out in years.

[SolarKnight]

As others have said, having the stand as a pack in is admitting the controls aren't very good and having a pack in stand for a handheld game.

How is the stand proof of anything in the first place? Honestly, I've never even seen it as anything other than just Nintendo trying to please a vocal group of people that were complaining about their game without having even played it.

I earnestly believe that there'd be 50% less bitching if no stand had been included.

Seconded

[Vane_MagicCity]

How is the stand proof of anything in the first place? Honestly, I've never even seen it as anything other than just Nintendo trying to please a vocal group of people that were complaining about their game without having even played it. Seconded

I see it differently. You know what a conservative company Nintendo is. They don't just throw in stuff for free for no reason. Hell, the Pokewalker costed an extra $5.

[Maedhros]

Again: why haven't people with this attitude been griping that Microsoft won't let them play every Xbox shooter with KB/M since that is "obviously the standard for playing shooters" according to the expert gamers?

I don't have a XBOX, but If I had you would see me being the first to complain about that.

The problem with KI:I isn't the game, I think the controls are better suited for the simplistic and fast paced type of game that KI:U is. The controls are not confortable to be played without a specific position or without the stand.

And confort is a big deal for me. If my hand cramps because the 3DS has a shitty form to play these kind of games, I prefer not even playing. I didn't played any of the games that used a similar control scheme on the DS.

If they provided a popular control scheme (Dual Analog), you wouldn't be seeing most of these complaints here. There are people who don't care about being the best on the game, they just want to play it the way they like it.

[chickdigger802]

I like how since the complainers are so dead set on the stand being an admission of horrible controls, yet the stand is not required for comfortable play, they're essentially arguing that a free bonus should not have been given out so as not to admit how bad the game is. I earnestly believe that there'd be 50% less bitching if no stand had been included. People would've dealt with it and enjoyed the best game Nintendo's put out in years.

It was the stand that was the issue????

I thought we were suppose to wrap the trading cards around our finger and the stand to make it comfortable!

Ah darn.

[Ysiadmihi]

At this point I kind of wish they would somehow patch dual analog support in just to see the complaints switch from "The controls suck!" to "This game is too hard! Slow it down!"

[Oni Link 666]

5+ years after the Wii launched, people still don't like motion controls. Now that 2 months doesn't seem like much time does it.

I don't think the controls of a system should be compared to the controls of a single game. KIU has a bunch of options to play with, and if you didn't find something you could use then you should have just moved on. All this arguing about CPP and shit was old before the game even came out. This is the second time Sakurai has said they didn't have time to support it and people are still going on about it.

[Vane_MagicCity]

At this point I kind of wish they would somehow patch dual analog support in just to see the complaints switch from "The controls suck!" to "This game is too hard! Slow it down!"

That would have to be part of the patch. You patch the game to accomadate certain controls and that includes slowing it down if necessary and it's something they could have done when they added the CPP support in the first place.

[Kokonoe]

Is this turning into My Opinions > Your Opinions?

[stupei]

Sure, I won't be buying it so fuck it. Isn't it interesting though that YOU are offended that people want that OPTION?

I'm offended by the lack of consistency in your argument.

Either you think Nintendo is badgering developers into doing things they don't want to do or you think developers should be badgered into doing things you want.

Or you think Sakurai was forced to design a game around a control style he didn't want, allowed to include alternatives, but prevented from including one particular alternative that he desperately wanted but was forbidden from using.

But that would be crazy, and so I'm confused.

It's possible that maybe Sakurai made the game he wanted to make and you aren't happy with that. It's fine if you don't like it or want to buy it, but it's weird to criticize Nintendo because you assume they might be telling developers what they should and shouldn't do with controls when that is precisely what you are definitely doing.

[Vane_MagicCity]

I don't think the controls of a system should be compared to the controls of a single game. KIU has a bunch of options to play with, and if you didn't find something you could use then you should have just moved on. All this arguing about CPP and shit was old before the game even came out. This is the second time Sakurai has said they didn't have time to support and people are still going on about it.

...and yet the CPP is supported.

Do tell me why we can't compare the controls of a system to the controls of a game.

[MikeE21286]

el oh el Sakurai

just be quiet, the controls are obtuse at best.

[SolarKnight]

That would have to be part of the patch. You patch the game to accomadate certain controls and that includes slowing it down if necessary and it's something they could have done when they added the CPP support in the first place.

No? They already have about 100 difficulty levels, if they want to slow the game down, then choose a lower level >__>

[Maedhros]

At this point I kind of wish they would somehow patch dual analog support in just to see the complaints switch from "The controls suck!" to "This game is too hard! Slow it down!"

Isn't the game playable with the face buttons (A, B, X, Y)? I mean, you can control the aim with these, right?

Do you see these people complaining?

[UncleSporky]

Is this turning into My Opinions > Your Opinions?

Well whatever you think, I'll take the opposite stance.

[Ysiadmihi]

That would have to be part of the patch. You patch the game to accomadate certain controls and that includes slowing it down if necessary and it's something they could have done when they added the CPP support in the first place.

All that work because of dual analog zealots? Can't say it seems like a good use of resources tbh.

[daffy]

I like how since the complainers are so dead set on the stand being an admission of horrible controls, yet the stand is not required for comfortable play, they're essentially arguing that a free bonus should not have been given out so as not to admit how bad the game is. I earnestly believe that there'd be 50% less bitching if no stand had been included. People would've dealt with it and enjoyed the best game Nintendo's put out in years.

50% less bitching.. Come on man, this isn't you. With or without the stand things just weren't ideal.

[Baller, PhD]

1. I buy entertainment product
2. Using entertainment product causes me physical pain, though it is not intended to do so.
3. It must be me who's fucked up, not the entertainment product.

Makes sense!

For the record I like the Kid Icarus overall and am on about mission 15 I believe. I play for about half hour every night before I go to bed. The game is clever and I love the witty writing. But ugh, my right hand hurts so fucking bad after just a little playtime. Saying that I should just "suck it up" and stop complaining is absolutely ridiculous. The second that Sakurai realized that sitting at a table and using and extra stand is the most comfortable way to play the game, red flags should have been shooting in the air. The control scheme is unnatural and it hurts my hand. That's really all there is to it.

[Boss Doggie]

el oh el Sakurai just be quiet, the controls are obtuse at best.

So I guess I can take it that the OP title is just for fishing replies? Comments like this are hilarious though.

That would have to be part of the patch. You patch the game to accomadate certain controls and that includes slowing it down if necessary and it's something they could have done when they added the CPP support in the first place.

To which you go back to your argument of "the game should have been made with dual analog in mind". Stuff like that just doesn't get *fingersnap* patch like some sort of magic.

...and yet the CPP is supported. Do tell me why we can't compare the controls of a system to the controls of a game.

The CCP was more for lefties actually. They're pretty much dead-set in giving that control scheme.