[SteveWinwood]

Personally I'd nerf the Degreaser; make the airblasts take up 25 or 40 ammo, so there'd be a decided advantage for the stock flamethrower (8 airblasts or 5 airblasts, respectively, for the Degreaser, vs. 10 for stock).

That makes the degreaser the bb without the upside of it...

Aka worse than the bb, which shouldn't be even concievably possible.

[Proven]

That makes the degreaser the bb without the upside of it... Aka worse than the bb, which shouldn't be even concievably possible.

Uh... no? The main power of the Degreaser is the weapon switch. Having cheap airblasts as a bonus along with comparable damage is what's making it so overpowered in comparison to the other flamethrowers. It's also because of that weapon switch speed that the Axtinguisher/Mailbox continue to be much better than taking any other melee for utility.

[Sgt.Pepper]

Well, Valve will probably add the flamethrower buff to the game whenever Meet the Pyro hits, so then there'd at least be a reason to use the regular flamethrower.

What kind of buff?

[Yeef]

There's no reason to nerf the degreaser airblasts. I think the changes they made in the beta are perfect. The normal flame thrower does an extra 10% damage, so it has the power of Backburner with plenty of airblasts. It makes all three* flamethrowers viable. Degreaser is for weapon juggling, the regular for flaming and the backburner for ambushing. The only change I might make is to reduce the degreaser's afterburn to 33% of the standard burn damage. That's 1 damage every half second (versus 3 normally). It'd make the afterburn basically useless other than for comboing, which is what the weapon is designed to do.

[Proven]

There's no reason to nerf the degreaser airblasts. I think the changes they made in the beta are perfect. The normal flame thrower does an extra 10% damage, so it has the power of Backburner with plenty of airblasts. It makes all three* flamethrowers viable. Degreaser is for weapon juggling, the regular for flaming and the backburner for ambushing. The only change I might make is to reduce the degreaser's afterburn to 33% of the standard burn damage. That's 1 damage every half second (versus 3 normally). It'd make the afterburn basically useless other than for comboing, which is what the weapon is designed to do.

I can live with the beta change, and was considering suggesting an afterburn change as well. My only issue with the beta changes is that the flamethrowers will still feel too similar in playstyle to me. And the melee problem.

[Kuro Madoushi]

Scrub Pyro
1. Doesn't put out teammates.
2. Doesn't spy check all teammates.
3. Doesn't spy check period.
4. Doesn't switch to shotgun when enemies out of range.
5. Doesn't sacrifice self to airblast ubers away.
6. Doesn't chase spies down after they catch them.

That last one kills me especially with the pyros on GAF. It's pyros like these that listen to bad advice that give spies free reign.

[sixghost]

Scrub Pyro 1. Doesn't put out teammates. 2. Doesn't spy check all teammates. 3. Doesn't spy check period. 4. Doesn't switch to shotgun when enemies out of range. 5. Doesn't sacrifice self to airblast ubers away. 6. Doesn't chase spies down after they catch them. That last one kills me especially with the pyros on GAF. It's pyros like these that listen to bad advice that give spies free reign.

I think the only one that applies to me is #2. I get lazy and forget to spy check for long periods of time, and sometimes get too far away from my team and just go kill hunting.

I've tried to stop being such a point whore and protect my teammates and engineers more. Also, I hunt down spies like my life depends on it once I spot them.

[Shadow Hog]

I Spy-check as any class, anyway. If you aren't firing your gun even once, or I can't run through you, then we've got a problem, and a bullet through your character's brain is the solution.

It just happens to be easier as a Pyro, admittedly.

[Yeef]

I can live with the beta change, and was considering suggesting an afterburn change as well. My only issue with the beta changes is that the flamethrowers will still feel too similar in playstyle to me. And the melee problem.

They're bound to feel similar since they're all the same weapon type. Now that I think about it, though, a good change for the degreaser might be to make airblasts extinguish enemies as well. I think i suggested that once long ago. With those changes:

• The backburner would be the defact ambush weapon because of back crit. Conversely, it'd be much worse at frontal attacks because of the high airblast cost.
• The degreaser would be the ideal combo weapon, but you wouldn't be able to rely on the extra speed AND the airblast to combo (other than with the reserve shooter). It'd be one or the other.
• The stock flamethrower would be the jack of all trades. Good for comboing, direct fighting and ambushing, but not excelling in any one area.

P.S. Pomson hitbox is hugegantic!

[Borgnine]

Oh god one time I was on fire and ran back towards an oncoming pyro thinking "ah my savior, I await your sweet puff" and then he was a spy and he facestabbed me.

[Kuro Madoushi]

I think the only one that applies to me is #2. I get lazy and forget to spy check for long periods of time, and sometimes get too far away from my team and just go kill hunting.

Puff of fire. Run into them. Quick shot with shotgun. It doesn't take much...

Though really, the best kind of spy checking is observation. Is that player not firing with enemies nearby? Do you see an enemy leaving your teammate alone?
Are they running straight for a player's back and not even facing the enemy? Did health and ammo disappear right in front of you? Are you taking quick looks behind you?

And don't tell me players do this on GAF. They don't. They're oblivious. When I'm dead and watching another player there are so many obvious things they don't see like the things I mentioned above. I don't expect a server full of pub stars, like JAÀAAAASON, but for fuck's sake how long have some of you guys been playing?

[Blizzard]

but for fuck's sake how long have some of you guys been playing?

I probably have 1100 hours or so, and after the first 1000 hours everything starts to blur together. I don't actually have to look at the screen anymore, I just randomly fire huntsman shots and occasionally press WASD. I haven't heard any complaints yet!

I feel like when I play spy everyone sees the obvious things I do, however. :(

[Borgnine]

As an Engineer I've found a new method of detecting spies: It's any player that runs DIRECTLY at my shit, or is anywhere near my stuff for any reason whatsoever. Also sap my minis all you want bitch, I'll just build another one! The stats page said I built 200 one day.

[Sgt.Pepper]

Most of my deaths against spies are with the revolver/shitforcer. They are pretty easy to spot since everyone seems to be using Cheap Ringer to make up for their horrible skills with the other watches.

[Blizzard]

Most of my deaths against spies are with the revolver/shitforcer. They are pretty easy to spot since everyone seems to be using Cheap Ringer to make up for their horrible skills with the other watches.

That language! Are you Kuro disguised as Sgt.Pepper? :P

[Soka]

As a pyro, I try to spy check, but often forget/get lazy (not that it is an excuse, just an admission of failure). Here's the thing though, if I ignite a deadringer spy I hunt that motherfucker down to the ends of the Earth. I'll airblast his dick into a wall until it's disintegrated. Fuck you deadringers.

Oh, and my playtime is something under ~450 hours, but it's relatively mixed among all classes besides Scout.

[SteveWinwood]

Uh... no? The main power of the Degreaser is the weapon switch. Having cheap airblasts as a bonus along with comparable damage is what's making it so overpowered in comparison to the other flamethrowers. It's also because of that weapon switch speed that the Axtinguisher/Mailbox continue to be much better than taking any other melee for utility.

Psh. As if I'd forget about that completely.

I'm tired.

[Kuro Madoushi]

That language! Are you Kuro disguised as Sgt.Pepper? :P

Shut the hell up, you extinct caricature from a terrible game! >:(

The man knows the dark ways of the Cheap/Douche Ringer

[CornBurrito]

Most of my deaths against spies are with the revolver/shitforcer. They are pretty easy to spot since everyone seems to be using Cheap Ringer to make up for their horrible skills with the other watches.

Is there any reason to develop skills with inferior watches?

That's like telling me I'm using my two working legs to make up for my horrible skill with crutches.

[nastynate409]

Scrub Pyro 1. Doesn't put out teammates. 2. Doesn't spy check all teammates. 3. Doesn't spy check period. 4. Doesn't switch to shotgun when enemies out of range. 5. Doesn't sacrifice self to airblast ubers away. 6. Doesn't chase spies down after they catch them. That last one kills me especially with the pyros on GAF. It's pyros like these that listen to bad advice that give spies free reign.

I do all of this when I play pyro, I just never really kill anyone... Does that make me a bad pyro? :(

[NSQuote]

I Spy-check as any class, anyway. If you aren't firing your gun even once, or I can't run through you, then we've got a problem, and a bullet through your character's brain is the solution. It just happens to be easier as a Pyro, admittedly.

"Here, let me pop this..."

:3

Most of my deaths against spies are with the revolver/shitforcer. They are pretty easy to spot since everyone seems to be using Cheap Ringer to make up for their horrible skills with the other watches.

Hehehe, I love killing Engineers with the revolver.

Is there any reason to develop skills with inferior watches? That's like telling me I'm using my two working legs to make up for my horrible skill with crutches.

The Dead Ringer is easier to use because escaping after a stab made simpler, requiring less leading and feinting. The Invis Watch is built for subtle espionage and key picks, the Dead Ringer more for brazen combat. Each is a tool. I personally prefer the Invis Watch, but each has its place.

The Enforcer is just a crutch and you should feel bad for using it. :U

[Shadow Hog]

"Here, let me pop this..." :3

Heh, I think I know what this is.

I said I spy-check as every class, I didn't say I was good at it :P

[Grimm Fandango]

Scrub Pyro 1. Doesn't put out teammates. 2. Doesn't spy check all teammates. 3. Doesn't spy check period. 4. Doesn't switch to shotgun when enemies out of range. 5. Doesn't sacrifice self to airblast ubers away. 6. Doesn't chase spies down after they catch them. That last one kills me especially with the pyros on GAF. It's pyros like these that listen to bad advice that give spies free reign.

More talented Pyros use the Flare Gun :P

[Luap]

The Dead Ringer is easier to use because escaping after a stab made simpler, requiring less leading and feinting. The Invis Watch is built for subtle espionage and key picks, the Dead Ringer more for brazen combat. Each is a tool. I personally prefer the Invis Watch, but each has its place. The Enforcer is just a crutch and you should feel bad for using it. :U

I pretty much always use my Strange Dead Ringer now, but some of you may remember that I used to use the Invis Watch exclusively. It is still my favorite watch; nothing feels better than perfectly sneaking up on the enemy and getting a great pick. However, for 99% of the time in public servers the DR is a better choice. The Invis Watch is better against organized teams or teams with 1 or 2 specific targets (e.g. a really good Demo, a Medic, a troublesome Engi nest). The DR is better in sloppy combat (i.e. 99% of the time in pubs).

And yes, the Enforcer is a bullshit weapon that's only OK to use if you're having a really bad day. Otherwise I think every Spy should learn how to use the Ambassador effectively. The stock revolver is fine too, although I think the Amby is way better once you start getting regular headshots.

[Sajjaja]

I pretty much always use my Strange Dead Ringer now, but some of you may remember that I used to use the Invis Watch exclusively. It is still my favorite watch; nothing feels better than perfectly sneaking up on the enemy and getting a great pick. However, for 99% of the time in public servers the Dead Ringer is a better choice. The Invis Watch is better against organized teams or teams with 1 or 2 specific targets (e.g. a really good Demo, a Medic, a troublesome Engi nest). And yes, the Enforcer is a bullshit weapon that's only OK to use if you're having a really bad day. Otherwise I think every Spy should learn how to use the Ambassador effectively. The stock revolver is fine too, although I think the Amby is way better once you start getting regular headshots.

BUT HOWWWW??????

[Yeef]

Let's pretend this relates to TF2 somehow, so I can post it here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgimLxKzOWg&hd=1

P.S. You should all play this game.

[Luap]

BUT HOWWWW??????

Haha, it takes a lot of practice. I'm still not great with it, especially since I haven't been playing lately; man I'm scared to see how much my aim has suffered. It's a lot harder to get headshots in this game than in CounterStrike, which was my first online FPS. I used to be really good at getting 1-shots with the deagle, so I figured I'd be great with the Ambassador. Definitely not the case. Lol.

[MatthewB92]

BUT HOWWWW??????

I know right? I have the damn crosshair over the head and can still not get a headshot. It's crazy. Might be the crosshair I use though.

[Shadow Hog]

Well, the first shot you fire will always be 100% accurate, which IIRC is true for any weapon on a no-spread server. It's those subsequent shots that tend to be more of a pain. Then you have any lag or shot-leading to add on to all of that... yeah, Ambassador can be kinda hard at times. :E

[Jake Tower]

Scrub Pyro 1. Doesn't put out teammates. 2. Doesn't spy check all teammates. 3. Doesn't spy check period. 4. Doesn't switch to shotgun when enemies out of range. 5. Doesn't sacrifice self to airblast ubers away. 6. Doesn't chase spies down after they catch them. That last one kills me especially with the pyros on GAF. It's pyros like these that listen to bad advice that give spies free reign.

Sounds like I need to play more on the Jank.

I hate spies so much I spy check everyone and will chase them down even if it means a kamikaze death ensues.

I hate spies so much, on other severs, I grief friendly spies whenever possible.

[SteveWinwood]

I feel like I'm in the cs go thread again.

[Yeef]

Well, the first shot you fire will always be 100% accurate, which IIRC is true for any weapon on a no-spread server. It's those subsequent shots that tend to be more of a pain. Then you have any lag or shot-leading to add on to all of that... yeah, Ambassador can be kinda hard at times. :E

With most weapons the first shot will be perfectly accurate and then there's a 1.25 second cool-down until the next shot is accurate. With the Ambassador the cool-down is only 0.2 seconds.

Hitscan weapons don't require you to lead shots or worry about lag since they're lag compensated.

[tangmaster96]

someone just called me a scrub pyro.. what do i do? :(

You know what you have to do.

[Shadow Hog]

With most weapons the first shot will be perfectly accurate and then there's a 1.25 second cool-down until the next shot is accurate. With the Ambassador the cool-down is only 0.2 seconds.

Don't think that's quite right. According to the wiki, its spread recovery is 0.95s. It couldn't be 0.2 seconds, since its attack interval is 0.696s, 3.5x a 0.2 second recovery - then every shot would be 100% accurate. <_<

[Soka]

Don't think that's quite right. According to the wiki, its spread recovery is 0.95s. It couldn't be 0.2 seconds, since its attack interval is 0.696s, 3.5x a 0.2 second recovery - then every shot would be 100% accurate. <_<

Maybe it's 0.2 second recovery after taking into account the 0.7 second attack interval; that'd be fairly close to the 0.95 second spread recovery you listed. So, a 0.9 s spread recovery, but only realistically a 0.2 s recovery time because the first 0.7 s you cannot fire anyway.

[Yeef]

Don't think that's quite right. According to the wiki, its spread recovery is 0.95s. It couldn't be 0.2 seconds, since its attack interval is 0.696s, 3.5x a 0.2 second recovery - then every shot would be 100% accurate. <_<

That was a typo. I meant 0.8s

[Boney]

someone just called me a scrub pyro.. what do i do? :(

scrub harder!

Let's pretend this relates to TF2 somehow, so I can post it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgimLxKzOWg&hd=1 P.S. You should all play this game.

they should give the pyro a broom

[Yeef]

they should give the pyro a broom

It would destroy stickies when you walk over them!

[tangmaster96]

Also sap my minis all you want bitch, I'll just build another one! The stats page said I built 200 one day.

Speaketh no evil.

[Kuro Madoushi]

Speaketh no evil.

Annoying Fuckface That Everyone Hates
Borgnine
486 mini sentries built

[Professor Beef]

I just like airblasting things as Pyro. Sadly, I keep running away scared when someone pops Uber.

[Kuro Madoushi]

I just like airblasting things as Pyro. Sadly, I keep running away scared when someone pops Uber.

[Luap]

This page: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqtRrMKBdho

Let's pretend this relates to TF2 somehow, so I can post it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgimLxKzOWg&hd=1 P.S. You should all play this game.

God I hate those kinds of games where every move has to be perfect or else you fly into a bunch of spikes or lava or something. Probably why I never enjoyed the 2D Mario games as much as everyone else. And Megaman too, man I hated that game as a kid.

[SteveWinwood]

This page: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqtRrMKBdho

Song rocks socks.

[Forkball]

It's been five months since the last "major" update (although I personally consider the Uber Update to be the last major one, Manniversary, Halloween, and Christmas were just UI and sparse item updates). According to TF2.com, 2008 had three major updates, 2009 had five, 2010 had six, and 2011 had six. By this time, 2011 had two major updates. 2012 currently has zero. We know that the Saxxys and Pyro updates will be this year, and there will of course be Halloween and Xmas updates again.

In short, GIMME DA UPDATE

[Professor Beef]

I never claimed I wasn't. :P

[SteveWinwood]

So I'm the only one who thinks that Valve has just sort of moved on a bit? I still expect updates and stuff, but just not SUPER MAJOR GAME CHANGERS as frequently as everyone else seems to.

[Forkball]

So I'm the only one who thinks that Valve has just sort of moved on a bit? I still expect updates and stuff, but just not SUPER MAJOR GAME CHANGERS as frequently as everyone else seems to.

I think they're obviously focusing on other titles (CS Go, Dota 2, Half-Life Kart), but TF2 makes them a lot of easy money. Considering how much the community contributes to the game, they definitely have enough to appease us for a long time.

[Kuro Madoushi]

I think they're obviously focusing on other titles (CS Go, Dota 2, Half-Life Kart), but TF2 makes them a lot of easy money. Considering how much the community contributes to the game, they definitely have enough to appease us for a long time.

If Forkball shuts up about updates they will...

[SteveWinwood]

I think they're obviously focusing on other titles (CS Go, Dota 2, Half-Life Kart), but TF2 makes them a lot of easy money. Considering how much the community contributes to the game, they definitely have enough to appease us for a long time.

Well that's why I didn't expect a whole lot more than a bug fix and a new item or two every week. It's gotta be the easiest thing in the world to just shit that out when all the work has been done by others and then go back to richochet episode 2 or hl dm go or whatever.