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M3d10n
Member
(05-04-2012, 01:06 PM)
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Originally Posted by Gez

Patent it before someone else does OP.

It's probably already patented, by more than one troll company even. They're just waiting for someone to take the bait before suing.
Thrakier
Member
(05-04-2012, 01:08 PM)

Originally Posted by sca2511

Pretty much what he's saying. I've played CS a ton, but that doesn't even matter, this would be a mess in any fine precision type of PC game. I'd be really frustrated.

I do get this reason, however for me videogames are more about immersion than precision. For example I liked the controls in Killzone 2 while many hated them. If FF is well implemented, it adds a lot to immersion.

Originally Posted by Valnen

Why do people actually like force feedback? There is nothing force feedback does that a well designed UI can't do better. The stupid rumble doesn't add any intensity or fun to games at all.

The only gameplay thing I've seen it used for is hunting for secrets, and that could be better handled with something on the screen.

I don't even get that comparison at the slightes. How does a UI make you feel something? Makes no sense. If the FF is really great, like f.e. in the Dirt Games, Killzone series, Metal Gear Solid (!!), Gran Turismo and you name it, it just feels wrong without it after playing it with FF enabled.

Obviously, it's not true for every FF enabled device. Vibration in Move or Wiimote are a joke and add nothing to the experience. DSIII and the 360 controller feel a lot better.
walking fiend
Member
(05-04-2012, 01:09 PM)
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Originally Posted by Thrakier

No, it would be immersive. I don't give a shit for teh CS kiddiez.

eh, what?

it's practically not usable for any fps, MOBA, RTS, etc.
erpg
GAF parliamentarian
(05-04-2012, 01:12 PM)
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Look into the Novint Falcon.

As for mice, Force feedback on a device with a 2100 dpi sensor is a funny idea.
flyinpiranha
Member
(05-04-2012, 01:14 PM)
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No thanks, and not because I'm against varied input devices either, I own or have owned Move, Wii, and Kinect. I've had flight sticks, mouse balls, various mice with various button layouts, various keyboards. I can honestly say I don't want my mouse or keyboard to rumble and I can't imagine anybody above the age of 10 wanting it either.
Thrakier
Member
(05-04-2012, 01:17 PM)

Originally Posted by flyinpiranha

No thanks, and not because I'm against varied input devices either, I own or have owned Move, Wii, and Kinect. I've had flight sticks, mouse balls, various mice with various button layouts, various keyboards. I can honestly say I don't want my mouse or keyboard to rumble and I can't imagine anybody above the age of 10 wanting it either.

Ah, I see, FF is for Kids now. -.-
Tacitus_
Member
(05-04-2012, 01:17 PM)
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Originally Posted by Thrakier

No, it would be immersive. I don't give a shit for teh CS kiddiez.

How about you sit on a vibrator. Get that immersion to explosions, you know?
Ducarmel
Member
(05-04-2012, 01:19 PM)
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I could only see it replace weapon kick back. Instead of simulating it on screen just have the mouse rumble, but that does not seem like it would be worth the effort and cost.
sca2511
Member
(05-04-2012, 01:19 PM)
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If there was a way to get feedback without interrupting/affecting input, sure I'd try it. For now, good speakers/headphones will do wonders.
flyinpiranha
Member
(05-04-2012, 01:21 PM)
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Originally Posted by Thrakier

Ah, I see, FF is for Kids now. -.-

In a mouse with incredible precision laser pointing? Yeah. It is.
Stallion Free
Cock Encumbered
(05-04-2012, 01:27 PM)
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Why would I want to mess with my high precision input? If I want rumble and I don't care about precision, I will use a controller since those things go hand in hand.
1-D_FTW
Member
(05-04-2012, 01:28 PM)
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Originally Posted by Tacitus_

How about you sit on a vibrator. Get that immersion to explosions, you know?

It's called a buttkicker. And if immersion is what Thrakier really wants, he'll combine a buttkicker with a Novint Falcon.

Optics and lasers clearly won out in the mice space and that's why the haptic mice prototypes from over a decade ago died. The mouse morphed into superior form and there was no place for something that made things spaz for no reason.

Originally Posted by Thrakier

Ah, I see, FF is for Kids now. -.-

You mean F. FF is force feedback. Rumble is not force feedback. It's spastic rumble. In order to qualify for force feedback, force is required (see force feedback wheels, flight sticks, or the noving falcon).
Last edited by 1-D_FTW; 05-04-2012 at 01:31 PM.
Thrakier
Member
(05-04-2012, 01:29 PM)

Originally Posted by Ducarmel

I could only see it replace weapon kick back. Instead of simulating it on screen just have the mouse rumble, but that does not seem like it would be worth the effort and cost.

There are probably tons of things you could do beside that, especially in FPS where you move your hands a lot. Slight vibration when you touch something or pick something up to really heavy FF effects when you get smacked in the face. Seriously, there are so many scenes in games which would be way worse without rumble. Just check out how often subtle MGS integrates rumble into cutscenes. The game just doesn't feel (exactly, feel) the same without it.

@flyinpiranha

Like I said before, high precision isn't the first priority for me. It's immersion and being able to "feel" the game, even if it's just in a very basic way, adds more immersion for me than high precision. If you are used to playing a game with rumble/FF and you play it without it afterwards, you will maybe understand what I mean. It feels somewhat "lightweight" and disconnected. Sure, you can get used to it to the point where rumble doesn't matter much anymore - but does it make things better?

I do understand that this is highely subjective, but at least you could be so nice not telling me I'm a kid because I do like FF. Just imagine what would've happened if Phil back then said: "So, rumble is only interesting for kids under the age of 10. We took it out because we are aiming at 24+." Funny thought.
sixteen-bit
Member
(05-04-2012, 01:29 PM)
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For precision reasons
Stallion Free
Cock Encumbered
(05-04-2012, 01:32 PM)
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There is nothing immersive about rumble, it's just a fun addition.

Oh hey this small white device in my hand is shaking, I feel like I'm really bumping that wall and shooting that gun!
Thrakier
Member
(05-04-2012, 01:33 PM)
Also you guys talking about precision all the time, why don't ask devs to get rid of recoil? Which is basically FF in a UI/software way. It totally fucks your precision, yet most of you like it as a fun gameplay element which makes things more immersive.
vazel
Member
(05-04-2012, 01:33 PM)
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I wouldn't be surprised if something like this was attempted at in the late '90s to early 2000s. Seems like they were trying at everything for PCs during that era. Incidentally, it is a shame the iSmell never came out, I was actually looking forward to trying that.
Thrakier
Member
(05-04-2012, 01:34 PM)

Originally Posted by Stallion Free

There is nothing immersive about rumble, it's just a fun addition.

Oh hey this small white device in my hand is shaking, I feel like I'm really bumping that wall and shooting that gun!

Exactly, yes. In games where it's implemented well it really does add to the feeling of shooting a gun or f.e. falling against a wall etc. - it even can be part of the gameplay (racing game, the curbs or corrugations in road surface). I do think that adds a lot but to each his own.
1-D_FTW
Member
(05-04-2012, 01:44 PM)
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Originally Posted by Thrakier

Also you guys talking about precision all the time, why don't ask devs to get rid of recoil? Which is basically FF in a UI/software way. It totally fucks your precision, yet most of you like it as a fun gameplay element which makes things more immersive.

Recoil is nature's way of balancing guns. Want more power and higher fire rate? Deal with the recoil.

It's natural that gamers want that carried over to games. It keeps things balanced by making there be tradeoffs.

Having your cursor jump because the high precision laser is being fucked with would simply cause everyone not named Thakier to return their defective mouse to the store.

Originally Posted by vazel

I wouldn't be surprised if something like this was attempted at in the late '90s to early 2000s. Seems like they were trying at everything for PCs during that era. Incidentally, it is a shame the iSmell never came out, I was actually looking forward to trying that.

Touchsense had prototypes before any of the consoles had rumble in the controllers. It seems to have died with the death of analog mouses. Optics and laser don't need things spazzing things out.
Last edited by 1-D_FTW; 05-04-2012 at 01:46 PM.
mxgt
Member
(05-04-2012, 01:47 PM)
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Originally Posted by Thrakier

Also you guys talking about precision all the time, why don't ask devs to get rid of recoil? Which is basically FF in a UI/software way. It totally fucks your precision, yet most of you like it as a fun gameplay element which makes things more immersive.

This is some of the worst logic I have ever seen
Sefirosu
Junior Member
(05-04-2012, 01:48 PM)

Originally Posted by Thrakier

Exactly, yes. In games where it's implemented well it really does add to the feeling of shooting a gun or f.e. falling against a wall etc. - it even can be part of the gameplay (racing game, the curbs or corrugations in road surface). I do think that adds a lot but to each his own.

I disagree, in no way would a rumbling mouse give even the remotest feeling of shooting a gun, it would just feel like holding a cheap vibrator... not to mention the absolute hell it would play with any decent mouse sensor.

Honestly I think UI recoil is all we need here.
flyinpiranha
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(05-04-2012, 01:48 PM)
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Originally Posted by Thrakier


@flyinpiranha

Like I said before, high precision isn't the first priority for me. It's immersion and being able to "feel" the game, even if it's just in a very basic way, adds more immersion for me than high precision. If you are used to playing a game with rumble/FF and you play it without it afterwards, you will maybe understand what I mean. It feels somewhat "lightweight" and disconnected. Sure, you can get used to it to the point where rumble doesn't matter much anymore - but does it make things better?

I do understand that this is highely subjective, but at least you could be so nice not telling me I'm a kid because I do like FF. Just imagine what would've happened if Phil back then said: "So, rumble is only interesting for kids under the age of 10. We took it out because we are aiming at 24+." Funny thought.

Sorry if I was rude, your "CS Kiddie" comment came off as arrogant. I know why you want it, I've looked far and wide and have spent hundreds of dollars on different mice/keyboard setups trying to find that perfect "fit" for myself. Your "fit" just has different priorities.

If high precision isn't your strong point I'm unsure as why you don't choose to use a 360 controller or something similar on the PC? You get your rumble that way and personally I think it would 'feel' a lot better than holding a shaking mouse because for the most part (for me anyway) my whole hand isn't usually encased around the mouse, it's usually just my fingertips and sometimes my palm. I don't grip the mouse like a controller, it would be like haptic feedback on my Android which I immediately turned off.

So the rumble would just be like touching something that rumbles, not actually holding it and getting the feel of a vibration. I also feel having it on a hard surface such as a mousepad would negate a lot of the feedback as it's not just working in your hands, it's working against a large solid object.

I just don't see the reasoning behind forcing a certain technology into something that would make it worse and wouldn't work that well because of the limited way of holding it. I'd just use a controller on my PC, the 360 controller pairs awesomely with it and is supported by quite a few games.
toastyToast
Member
(05-04-2012, 01:49 PM)
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Because a mouse that isn't steady is being a bad mouse
Thrakier
Member
(05-04-2012, 02:00 PM)

Originally Posted by flyinpiranha

Sorry if I was rude, your "CS Kiddie" comment came off as arrogant. I know why you want it, I've looked far and wide and have spent hundreds of dollars on different mice/keyboard setups trying to find that perfect "fit" for myself. Your "fit" just has different priorities.

If high precision isn't your strong point I'm unsure as why you don't choose to use a 360 controller or something similar on the PC? You get your rumble that way and personally I think it would 'feel' a lot better than holding a shaking mouse because for the most part (for me anyway) my whole hand isn't usually encased around the mouse, it's usually just my fingertips and sometimes my palm. I don't grip the mouse like a controller, it would be like haptic feedback on my Android which I immediately turned off.

So the rumble would just be like touching something that rumbles, not actually holding it and getting the feel of a vibration. I also feel having it on a hard surface such as a mousepad would negate a lot of the feedback as it's not just working in your hands, it's working against a large solid object.

I just don't see the reasoning behind forcing a certain technology into something that would make it worse and wouldn't work that well because of the limited way of holding it. I'd just use a controller on my PC, the 360 controller pairs awesomely with it and is supported by quite a few games.

Oh, I'm using a controller for racing games and other genre. Works fine. But for some games like FPS I still prefer a mouse over an controller, because it feels more natural.

I didn't came into the thread to discuss if it's possible and how, I'm not an engineer and yeah, I do see the potential problems. But then we can fly to the moon, so it should be possible for someone to find a valid and working method to add FF in a *competent* way to a mouse/key setup. I'm just missing the awesome feeling of shooting a gun in *some* console shooters, which, that's my thought, feels way more heavy, real and immersive because of the way rumble is used.

Originally Posted by Sefirosu

I disagree, in no way would a rumbling mouse give even the remotest feeling of shooting a gun, it would just feel like holding a cheap vibrator... not to mention the absolute hell it would play with any decent mouse sensor.

Honestly I think UI recoil is all we need here.

That's what happens when you add bad FF like in a wiimote. This is more of an annoyance, sure. But that's not what I want.
jett
Member
(05-04-2012, 02:02 PM)
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Put your controller on your desk and make it rumble, see how well that works out. Also notice the horrible noise. No thanks. Personally rumble adds nothing, anyway.
Turfster
Member
(05-04-2012, 02:06 PM)
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... That's... a pretty dumb idea.
I know what would be perfect for you though! Get an Aura Interactor and strap it to your back. You can probably find one for a few bucks and you'll feel everything!
Foliorum Viridum
Banned
(05-04-2012, 02:08 PM)
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I always thought rumble in a mouse mat would be a better idea than the mouse itself.

However, when I leave my 360 pad on my desk and it rumbles it makes the worst noise ever. The rumble would have to be pretty weak to prevent that.
LiK
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(05-04-2012, 02:09 PM)
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I love rumble. Probably why I prefer games on the consoles or playing PC games with a pad. Pulling the trigger in a FPS and feeling some kickback feels good.

Not sure if it feels better with a mouse tho.
Thrakier
Member
(05-04-2012, 02:10 PM)

Originally Posted by jett

Put your controller on your desk and make it rumble, see how well that works out. Also notice the horrible noise. No thanks. Personally rumble adds nothing, anyway.

Obviously I wouldn't want that and that wasn't what I had in mind when I asked the question. It would be an engineers job to figure out how to do it with a proper feedback and no noise.
danmaku
Member
(05-04-2012, 02:11 PM)
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Adding force feedback to a steering wheel makes sense because it makes it more realistic. In real life, you use a similar device to drive a car. But moving a mouse on a table has nothing to do with aiming a gun in real life. Adding force feedback doesn't make it more realistic, because it's not realistic to begin with. It could be a good idea in light gun shooters, though, and I think some games already use it.
1-D_FTW
Member
(05-04-2012, 02:17 PM)
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http://www.amazon.co.uk/Nostromo-Tou.../dp/B00005U2DY

One of those touchsense mice actually made it to market. And as expected, it was old school and not optical.
YoYo Switch
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(05-04-2012, 02:19 PM)
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Originally Posted by FyreWulff

I remember the problem being the noise, like when you leave a 360 controller on a desk and something sets it off and it's all BRAAAPPAPAPAPAPPA

when I was younger, my mom would hate me playing games at night

When I'd hear her come downstairs I'd quickly pause the game and open a book or pretend I'm asleep.

one time I forgot to pause my game and that fuckkng huge ass n64 rumble pack went off and I got grounded no games for a month yo

Fuck rumble
Rad Agast
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(05-04-2012, 02:26 PM)
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Originally Posted by Thrakier

Depends on the implementation, but that's what it should do I guess. Like force feedback on a wheel fucks with your driving.

What? FFB in driving wheels gives you important information which helps improve your driving.
Pai Pai Master
Member
(05-04-2012, 02:29 PM)
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Um, this would fucking suck. You pay more for a more accurate mouse...why would you want a vibrating mouse that makes you less accurate? Aside from sticking it down your pants, of course.
Sefirosu
Junior Member
(05-04-2012, 02:29 PM)

Originally Posted by Rad Agast

What? FFB in driving wheels gives you important information which helps improve your driving.

Yes, but to people who don't know what the hell they're doing with a wheel it seems like its there to fuck with their game.
1-D_FTW
Member
(05-04-2012, 02:31 PM)
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Originally Posted by Rad Agast

What? FFB in driving wheels gives you important information which helps improve your driving.

Yeah. He's clearly gone off the deep end. Who needs valuable information to know a wheel is slipping? Let's whine for a mouse technology that was tried and abandoned because it's a gimmick that doesn't work with laser technologies.

YOUR MOUSE WOULD LITERALLY SPAZ ON THE SCREEN. It would not be immersive, it would be like playing with a broken laser.
MMaRsu
I need some paprika. Official moneylender of the Coalition of Muslim Drug Dealers
(05-04-2012, 02:32 PM)
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Originally Posted by Foliorum Viridum

I always thought rumble in a mouse mat would be a better idea than the mouse itself.

However, when I leave my 360 pad on my desk and it rumbles it makes the worst noise ever. The rumble would have to be pretty weak to prevent that.

Well they both are pretty different materials, a mousepad and a xbox 360 controller.. lol
Thrakier
Member
(05-04-2012, 02:36 PM)

Originally Posted by Pai Pai Master

Um, this would fucking suck. You pay more for a more accurate mouse...why would you want a vibrating mouse that makes you less accurate? Aside from sticking it down your pants, of course.

Well, like I clearly stated 4 to 5 times now: I'd value a way to "feel" the game over precision anytime. To each his own I guess.
Dash Kappei
Not actually that important
(05-04-2012, 02:45 PM)
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Originally Posted by Mistle

Nothing beats the GameCube rumble.

The Wii rumble just doesn't cut it :/

THIS THIS THIS

Wave Race Blue Storm and Luigi's Mansion (sob, LM2 on 3DS...) rocked so fucking hard. WR:B especially would be half of a game without rumble and analog triggers.
dark10x
60 fps 60 fps 60 fps 60 fps 30 fps 60 fps 60 fps 30 fps
(05-04-2012, 02:45 PM)
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Originally Posted by Ookami-kun

=/

These ideas... need to be extinguished. Especially that last sentence.

Are you kidding me? Analog movement would be a wonderful addition to the PC.

A buddy of mine replaced the stick in one of his G13s with a 360 stick and it feels wonderful. Such control should become more common in the PC space. I love using the mouse, but keyboard movement sucks.

It's a shame most PC products are designed for "HARDCORE MULTIPLAYER" games as I simply don't enjoy competitive multiplayer anymore and have no interest in getting the edge. I simply want products that enhance my single player experience.
Last edited by dark10x; 05-04-2012 at 02:47 PM.
Woo-Fu
incest on the subway
(05-04-2012, 02:46 PM)
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The same reason nobody has invented the square wheel yet.
PumpkinPie
Banned
(05-04-2012, 02:47 PM)
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Originally Posted by Aquavelvaman

When are we going to get pressure-sensitive analogue keyboards?

Always wondered this myself. PC master race and still using on-off to walk and run in games -_-
toastyToast
Member
(05-04-2012, 02:49 PM)
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Also with a controller, despite it vibrating your thumb stays steady enough so that you don't lost control

You can lose a shot if you make a slight twitch. This idea sounds like a handicap
Dash Kappei
Not actually that important
(05-04-2012, 02:49 PM)
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Btw, I would like the idea of rumble in mouse gaming even tho 95% of games have a terrible implementation of rumble and it doesn't help all of three current gen consoles don't have good rumble effects for their pads.

Problem would be with the table and awful vibrations, but you guys shouldn't think a strong farting X360 pad like effect, but something much more subtle.

I would add a smooth rumble effect, only to the top left and top right buttons of the mouse instead of the whole thing.


Originally Posted by Ookami-kun

These ideas... need to be extinguished. Especially that last sentence.

What. WASD's turn on/off digital movement sucks balls, that is a fact.
Last edited by Dash Kappei; 05-04-2012 at 02:52 PM.
1-D_FTW
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(05-04-2012, 02:57 PM)
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Originally Posted by dark10x

Are you kidding me? Analog movement would be a wonderful addition to the PC.

A buddy of mine replaced the stick in one of his G13s with a 360 stick and it feels wonderful. Such control should become more common in the PC space. I love using the mouse, but keyboard movement sucks.

It's a shame most PC products are designed for "HARDCORE MULTIPLAYER" games as I simply don't enjoy competitive multiplayer anymore and have no interest in getting the edge. I simply want products that enhance my single player experience.

Was hoping the Sony Navigator would be that answer, but abandoned it because it just wasn't worth the effort.

My dream controller would be Valve releasing a Navigator like device that had a biofeedback membrane.

The downside would be compatibility. A lot of games today are abandoning dual controller/mouse support and making you pick one or the other.
Felix Lighter
Member
(05-04-2012, 03:06 PM)
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Mouse rumble isn't something that I'd be interested in but if there was a good way to implement an analog stick without loosing access to the dozen+ keys I use around wasd, I'd consider it.
daviyoung
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(05-04-2012, 03:06 PM)
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Originally Posted by Dash Kappei

What. WASD's turn on/off digital movement sucks balls, that is a fact.

I think it's a fair compromise for having so many buttons at your disposal.
Fudgepuppy
Member
(05-04-2012, 03:09 PM)
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I want controllers and mice that feel like guns with the triggers and handles.

Also, force feedback in a game like BF3 with a vibrating mouse could work. It would yank left and right in the same manner as the weapon in the game. Could actually benefit in some cases.

Also, what mousepads are you guys using? Nothing vibrates through my Qpad.
LamerDeluxe
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(05-04-2012, 03:20 PM)
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Originally Posted by Gahiggidy

I own one of those. I have always thought it would be EXCELLENT for the wiimote. Imagine playing the harp in Skyward Sword and being able to feel each pluck of the cords, for example.

WarioWare twisted for the GBA actually has something like that, rumble in relation to motion. For instance, one of the minigames has a dial from a safe where you can feel the notches while turning, it is a really cool effect that I expected to see on the Wii as well.

Too bad and a bit surprising that the 3DS and Vita don't have rumble, phones do use rumble in games.
dark10x
60 fps 60 fps 60 fps 60 fps 30 fps 60 fps 60 fps 30 fps
(05-04-2012, 03:22 PM)
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Originally Posted by daviyoung

I think it's a fair compromise for having so many buttons at your disposal.

I don't as those buttons are simply not necessary for most games.

Besides, something like this offers plenty of buttons AND an analog stick.



If we could get a perfected version of this I would be thrilled.

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