[corporate cheerleader]

How is saying i work for a living being a prick? i'm sorry if you don't have a job, but ESPECIALLY with the way the economy is i just find it absolutely retarded when people are just willing to throw money away when the reality is you don't know if you're getting ANYTHING or not, it's all on good faith. As much as i wish it were the other way around, good faith isn't worth shit nowadays, guys.

(I have a job, thankfully) It's all based on faith, no denying that. Here's the thing though, not every KS gets supported; when people see the project is full of shit, they won't support it. When they see it is by renowned people like Tim Schafer, they will support it. So, it's also a matter of research, not just faith.

When a KS project goes absolutely wrong (as in, the game is complete trash and people don't get the promised gifts) then I'll carry the torches with you. It also means that the project leader will become an internet disgrace who can't be trusted with money, so there is a lot on the line for them as well.

[HadesGigas]

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/...716/your-world ? To the above posters, yes I'm aware if goals aren't met no money is taken, but still what's keeping me from "making a game" and then taking the money and running? That's all I'm saying. Not ALL Kickstarter PROJECTS are shit, but the way the website is set up for NOW is shady to me.

It's pretty easy to sniff out a rat and not donate to them. Like that one that was full of stolen concept art and reward tiers.

[Coal]

Is this a joke post? I'll act like you mean this and blow it apart anyway. ''Oh shit they finished the new Wasteland? I was under the impression that it wasn't even close to being started, but who knows I don't live in the future.'' Do you say this in every thread about a new game announcement? Even the new Smash Bros was announced before a single idea was on paper. ''I think PA hit the nail right on the head, KS is ridiculous. What's wrong with having game COMPANIES that are well established for making GOOD GAMES ALREADY make games?'' How does KS stop this from happening? KS isn't replacing this, it's allowing for a middle tier between no budget games (the Newgrounds type) and big budget. ''It's only been working well for the past FOREVER'' If you only like game where you drive realistic cars or shoot people. Also the use of 'FOREVER' is funny, since a lot of the games funded would have been made under the Publishers just a decade ago, but now the budgets have increased to a point they don't want to release a game that requires thought to enjoy, everything they put out is idiot friendly. Leaving a lot of genres and more unique voices in the industry locked out.

Cool story bro, but let ME break it down for you:

1. nah, i don't post in every thread at gaf, sorry son. plus, if you look closely the post i quoted (which you left out, convenient) talked as if the game was finished.

2. Kickstarter doesn't stop this, but i never said it did, if you would read my posts again pls.

3. Let's all see how these KS projects sell before everyone starts praising the ground KS walks on. Wasteland for example may have reached a goal, but it actually has to be finished (which will take a while depending on how large the team is) and even IF it is finished what is stopping even half the people who donated to have it finished from pirating the game, like they would do with any other release?

[HP_Wuvcraft]

You know, I normally think Penny Arcade is dirty shitty shit, but they are at least eloquent most of the time.

Plus, you know, Kickstarter seems right up their alley.

So this is a bit frustrating. But not that much.

[Coal]

Just curious for all you guys defending KS, how much swag and games from donating to KS have you guys gotten? Just curious.

[Sir_Crocodile]

and even IF it is finished what is stopping even half the people who donated to have it finished from pirating the game, like they would do with any other release?

...

...

...

...because they'll own the game

[Dog Problems]

Cool story bro, but let ME break it down for you: 1. nah, i don't post in every thread at gaf, sorry son. plus, if you look closey the post i quoted (which you left out, convenient) talked as if the game was finished. 2. Kickstarter doesn't stop this, but i never said it did, if you would read my posts again pls. 3. Let's all see how these KS projects sell before everyone starts praising the ground KS walks on. Wasteland for example may have reached a goal, but it actually has to be finished (which will take a while depending on how large the team is) and even IF it is finished what is stopping even half the people who donated to have it finished from pirating the game, like they would do with any other release?

I don't understand this part. Can you explain it better?

[HP_Wuvcraft]

Why would people who own something... pirate it?

[MightyHedgehog]

Debatable. Good games are opinion based, but the stuff on KS can't really hold a candle to a huge team of people working on a game.

Ummm, did you miss the part where these super successful KS game projects are offering a familiar experience that no longer is crafted these days? The overwhelming success of these projects is due to a thoughtful approach to easing people over the threshold of and into an unfamiliar process, but filled with the excitement and hopes of a starved fanbase which gives it life through their evangelization and just the raised profile of the game concept exciting those on the fringes who would never have heard of it except through the promotional efforts of the KS project team.

Boiling it down to more and better carrots added on top of preying on nostalgia-addled folks being the reasons for success, the way Tycho does, is blind to what this offers everyone, whether you back a game or buy it after release. These games (and, perhaps, their gametypes) will live or die based on backer success and, in the post release world, the extent to which the final pledged amount exceeds the minimum required to develop the core game, as greater production values and deeper, more fully-developed games may only fully reach their potential with that layer of polish and content to seal the deal. Big teams ain't delivering, so why wait and pass up an opportunity to effect a positive change to that situation?

[coldvein]

3. Let's all see how these KS projects sell before everyone starts praising the ground KS walks on. Wasteland for example may have reached a goal, but it actually has to be finished (which will take a while depending on how large the team is) and even IF it is finished what is stopping even half the people who donated to have it finished from pirating the game, like they would do with any other release?

ace of base sold a shit ton of copies.

[Coal]

I don't understand this part. Can you explain it better?

I mean that only certain donation amounts get the game, right? if i donate 1 dollar will i still get a copy? if so i retract my statement.

ace of base sold a shit ton of copies.

haha!

[B_Rik_Schitthaus]

About what? That shitty Kickstarters are shit? Because if you're implying that they're throwing the whole website under the base, I'll redirect you to the last two months of posts by Tycho which have been copious with Kickstarter project pimping.

The idea lampooned in the comic.

- KS is a place where people trying to play on a sense of nostalgia or heritage to a sub culture get funding.

-That people pledging are deluded into thinking they will get something crazy in return the 'Lamborghini'.

They might only be talking about bad project but the framing of comic only shows that one project and it never gives context to elaborate that one project shown isn't suppose to be representative.

[Xater]

Just curious for all you guys defending KS, how much swag and games from donating to KS have you guys gotten? Just curious.

Kickstarter isn't just about video games.There are tons of successful and good projects when it comes to boardgames.

[HadesGigas]

Just curious for all you guys defending KS, how much swag and games from donating to KS have you guys gotten? Just curious.

I got an artwork postcard from a project I had pledged $5 to but it didn't meet the goals so I didn't pay. Thought that was pretty nice of the guy.

[Dog Problems]

I mean that only certain donation amounts get the game, right? if i donate 1 dollar will i still get a copy? if so i retract my statement.

It all depends on how they have their tiers set up. It's usually $10-$20 that gets you the game.

[Satch]

Just curious for all you guys defending KS, how much swag and games from donating to KS have you guys gotten? Just curious.

Well, I've never donated to them, so I've never received anything.

And since I've never donated, I've never been hurt by this system. So I see no need to go on a rampage in this thread. Your mileage may vary though.

I don't really see anything wrong with Kickstarter yet for it to be worth the spite that you're showing here.

[Coal]

Kickstarter isn't just about video games.There are tons of successful and good projects when it comes to boardgames.

True, but this is a forum about video games.


And to the above poster, I dont' see how I'm showing spite... i'm just typing words on a forum lol

i realize that i don't have to donate to any KS ever, but to me it just seems like something new to prey on the stupid (not EVERY SINGLE ONE, just in general)

[B_Rik_Schitthaus]

I mean that only certain donation amounts get the game, right? if i donate 1 dollar will i still get a copy? if so i retract my statement.

...wow ...it's like a man scientist set out to make the worlds worst debater.

[LiquidSolid]

About what? That shitty Kickstarters are shit? Because if you're implying that they're throwing the whole website under the bus, I'll redirect you to the last two months of posts by Tycho which have been copious with Kickstarter project pimping.

Hell, Tycho's pimping a bunch of Kickstarters on the front fucking page of their site. I guess reading is hard.

[Sir_Crocodile]

I mean that only certain donation amounts get the game, right? if i donate 1 dollar will i still get a copy? if so i retract my statement.

60933/61290 backed to a sufficient enough level to get the game.

[panda21]

Every kickstarter I've funded I'm getting the finished product in return for.

it would be nice if that was true but thats certainly not guaranteed. what if they never finish?

Is this a joke post? I'll act like you mean this and blow it apart anyway. ''Oh shit they finished the new Wasteland? I was under the impression that it wasn't even close to being started, but who knows I don't live in the future.'' Do you say this in every thread about a new game announcement? Even the new Smash Bros was announced before a single idea was on paper.

i don't think they were asking for money for Smash Bros at that point though...

if EA were asking people to pay in advance to make a new super PC RPG point & click adventure strategy simulator before they had even started making the game people would be shitting with rage.

[dude]

and even IF it is finished what is stopping even half the people who donated to have it finished from pirating the game, like they would do with any other release?

You are not very smart. You do realize they already paid for the game, right?

And if anything, the Kickstarter model is the best way to combat piracy -. People have more incentive to but the game because other wise it won't get made. Budget is already secured, less risk and thus less reason to pursue pirates. Even if pirates cause some profit loss, because people already funded the game almost every copy sold is profit.

[Coal]

it would be nice if that was true but thats certainly not guaranteed. what if they never finish? i don't think they were asking for money for Smash Bros at that point though... if EA were asking people to pay in advance to make a new super PC RPG point & click adventure strategy simulator before they had even started making the game people would be shitting with rage.

THIS THIS THIS A THOUSAND TIMES this

Your last part in particular, that's all i've been trying to say, jesus.


Sorry to all you KS lovers, I just have yet to see a substantial game come out of it. Sorry <3333

[HP_Wuvcraft]

I mean that only certain donation amounts get the game, right? if i donate 1 dollar will i still get a copy? if so i retract my statement.

If I donate to, say, a farm, my reward is helping people get food.

If I donate to an outside pool in New York, I helped make a pool.

The main problem with talking about Kickstarter is that you're not just talking about one category of items.

Also: Why would EA ever give a shit about Kickstarter? The amount of money is insignificant to them.

[mclem]

3. Let's all see how these KS projects sell before everyone starts praising the ground KS walks on. Wasteland for example may have reached a goal, but it actually has to be finished (which will take a while depending on how large the team is) and even IF it is finished what is stopping even half the people who donated to have it finished from pirating the game, like they would do with any other release?

Probably the fact that they're getting a copy for free?

[Satch]

it would be nice if that was true but thats certainly not guaranteed. what if they never finish?

If they never finish, doesn't the donation money go back?

[HadesGigas]

THIS THIS THIS A THOUSAND TIMES this Your last part in particular, that's all i've been trying to say, jesus.

You've been saying a lot stupider things than that...

But that point is valid, there is no guarentee every project will finish, so you should use some common sense when donating.

[Coal]

Probably the fact that they're getting a copy for free?

Not if they didn't donate enough.

[Brickhunt]

The point of the current trend on Kickstarter is to fund games that publishers are very unlikely to greenlight/fund. The whole reason why Wasterland 2 was funded on kickstarter was because it was rejected by all publishers.

It comes to common sense when it's time to fund these games. I trust established developers like inXile and Doublefine. If they fail to deliver their developing career is pretty much over.

[Dog Problems]

it would be nice if that was true but thats certainly not guaranteed. what if they never finish?

You have a good point. But it really comes down to the company. Again, a company like Double Fine will more than likely not let this happen. They have too much at stake.

If they never finish, doesn't the donation money go back?

Nope. It's all theirs.

[Friedreich]

Yeah, no, this comic isn't poo-pooing on KS as a whole. That ME3 comic isn't insulting fans who hated the ending either; it's directed towards those crazy Retake Mass Effect dudes.

[Sir_Crocodile]

it would be nice if that was true but thats certainly not guaranteed. what if they never finish?

*shrug*

That's the risk I run fronting up money to get a game that wouldn't otherwise be made.

that's all i've been trying to say, jesus.

No, you've been saying lots of ridiculous things that show to all and sundry you have no earthly idea what you're talking about.

[coldvein]

Yeah, no, this comic isn't poo-pooing on KS as a whole. That ME3 comic isn't insulting fans who hated the ending either; it's directed towards those crazy Retake Mass Effect dudes.

i read this comic as poo-pooing on ks as a whole. i may have been mistaken.

[V_Arnold]

I like PA but when they are wrong, they are really fucking wrong.

I love them, but they are wrong with this one. You can never judge a system by cherry picking the bad examples. That is just shallow.

[mavs]

Not if they didn't donate enough.

Then they figured out how to get money from a pirate. Before the game is released even. That is some fucking wizard shit right there, can't you see that? If that happens then every publisher needs to get on Kickstarter yesterday.

[Sir Fragula]

Kickstarter type funding will probably result in some gems, but I think its almost assured that a lot of people are going to be donating to projects that fail spectacularly.

So yeah, be optimistic but don't go crazy with it.

[mclem]

if EA were asking people to pay in advance to make a new super PC RPG point & click adventure strategy simulator before they had even started making the game people would be shitting with rage.

Rage? No. I'd consider it. I'd also, of course, consider the fact that EA *do* have the means to fund it themselves, but that wouldn't necessarily mean I'd write it off.

[Visualante2]

They’ve essentially developed an RPG, where your money is the XP. In these two cases, the stretch goals are of such a high quality that I think what we’re actually seeing is the entire development lifecycle of the offer laid bare: what would have been con exclusives or expansions or preorder bonuses are simply laid out, the living spine exposed. That’s not how this is supposed to work. And this, while we pick and choose winners like steam trays at Dim Sum. It’s fucking unreal.

Interesting quote for the people who just look at the comics.

[dude]

it would be nice if that was true but thats certainly not guaranteed. what if they never finish?

Like everything, you need to invest smart. You need to trust the developers and the pitcher and not invest too much. And if nothing came of it, you lost like 50$ and you can try and sue them. There's a risk, but crowd-sourcing make it significantly smaller.

[Coal]

It just seems crazy to me, i had a friend who wanted to record an album that made a kickstarter but never reached his goal. To me then it sounded sketchy at best but this was when it first started (at least a year or two ago)

The next thing I know KS is HUGE, i don't understand it

[Brad Grenz]

These Penny Arcade guys seem incredibly out of touch with reality. The depicted Kickstarter in that comic are probably one out of a thousand and usually don't end up getting funded.

We're all clear on the fact this strip is obviously referencing the recently exposed fraudulent Kickstarter for a game where all the assets were stolen and the company didn't exist, right? Not the enterprise in its totality...

[derFeef]

They are making fun of the Kickstarter bandwagon (a bit late, but well). No offense taken and I will gladly fund more interesting projects again.

[Dog Problems]

It just seems crazy to me, i had a friend who wanted to record an album that made a kickstarter but never reached his goal. To me then it sounded sketchy at best but this was when it first started (at least a year or two ago) The next thing I know KS is HUGE, i don't understand it

It just comes down to people getting what they want. A lot of gamers who have felt ignored are all of a sudden getting their interests show some attention.

[Satch]

Nope. It's all theirs.

Ah, I didn't know that. That's a very valid concern.

Even still, I'd rather KS not have to nuke the forest for a few bad apples.

[B_Rik_Schitthaus]

i don't think they were asking for money for Smash Bros at that point though...

It was directed to a claim of it's existence, and often you can put money down for pre-orders for game that aren't made yet, it's one of the reasons stores want pre-orders, so they make interest on the money.

if EA were asking people to pay in advance to make a new super PC RPG point & click adventure strategy simulator before they had even started making the game people would be shitting with rage.

If one of the leaders of the old model tried to use the new model then his people would be pissy, luckily that has nothing to do with what's happening.

People on different levels of industry are held to different standards.

It just seems crazy to me, i had a friend who wanted to record an album that made a kickstarter but never reached his goal. To me then it sounded sketchy at best but this was when it first started (at least a year or two ago) The next thing I know KS is HUGE, i don't understand it

Was the album called 'My friend is oddly and vicariously bitter'?

[mclem]

Not if they didn't donate enough.

In Wasteland's case, that's - what, 300 people out of 60k? Hardly a massive groundswell of disappointment, there.

[Yeef]

i read this comic as poo-pooing on ks as a whole. i may have been mistaken.

I love them, but they are wrong with this one. You can never judge a system by cherry picking the bad examples. That is just shallow.

I'm curious: did you people who feel like they're talking about kickstarter as a whole read it here, in this thread first, or on their website first?

I read it originally on their site (RSS reader) and I didn't get that sense at all. I feel like the thread title must be framing your interpretation. The actual name of the comic is "Incredibility."

[EchosMyron1]

I think they're specifically making fun of KickStarter's made by dudes who haven't made games in forever coming back into the fold asking for money to make games, when they haven't produced anything notable in years (decades in some cases right?).

I'm not too familiar with the stated pitch of a lot of these KickStarters, are a lot of them just vague nonsense as parodied in the strip? They usually just use the actual name when they're talking about a specific dude.

In any case I chuckled at "I'm John Videogames" and John Videogame's crazy face

[dude]

People who shit on Kickstarter must live in some alternative dimension where games do not suck. Because, honestly, Kickstarter is one of the last things still making me care at all about video games.

[mclem]

Today's news post isn't up yet, but here's a segment of Wednesday's post:

Still on my Kickstarter thing, and there’s a couple really, really successful ones we need to take a look at: Zombicide and Ogre: Designer’s Edition. A few high profile Kickstarters, travelling quickly via the modern web and fuelled by an overwhelming affection for our own pasts, funded several games and created a powerful narrative arc. Double Fine and 2 Player Productions functionally crafted a new paradigm along with their offer, bringing in $3,336,371 dollars which we can all agree is a lot, with an average pledge of $38.29. inXile’s Wasteland followed that up $2,933,252, with a higher average pledge of $47.86. In both cases, people were purchasing the idea of a game - but in the tabletop space, which is also hopping, you can develop, prototype, and even release rulesets people can play at home now. Zombicide, developed by what is by all accounts an all-star team comprised of actual all-stars, is fully funded at $275,371 with an average $142.26 dollars pledge. Ogre is at $387,762, but with a 150.53 average pledge. Clearly people who buy boardgames aren’t as sensitive about the price; plus, you only need one for a bunch of people to play. But I want to emphasize the extent to which these fundraisers were “designed” in such a way as to maximize individual donations. And it worked. Oh God, did it ever work. You’ve seen Stretch Goals before, if you’ve ever watched one of these things succeed: mechanisms to maintain funding momentum after success, with whispered promises of more. These have that, but distilled down into some wicked barn liquor. Stretch goals not at fifty or a hunrded thousand, like Stoic’s Banner Saga, but every fifteen or twenty thousand. Goodies you can add a la carte, independent of your pledge level. They’ve essentially developed an RPG, where your money is the XP. In these two cases, the stretch goals are of such a high quality that I think what we’re actually seeing is the entire development lifecycle of the offer laid bare: what would have been con exclusives or expansions or preorder bonuses are simply laid out, the living spine exposed. That’s not how this is supposed to work. And this, while we pick and choose winners like steam trays at Dim Sum. It’s fucking unreal.

Does that sound like the writings of someone who thinks that everything on Kickstarter is a massive scam?