[Coal]

Was the album called 'My friend is oddly and vicariously bitter'?

nope, here it was instead smartass :P

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/...l-0?ref=search

[DiscoJer]

To me, KS is a sort of like microlending, only for creative stuff, not businesses.

You give them money in the hopes they will make something good with it, not so much necessarily getting something back.

I like gaming, but I really don't like how it's going, with Angry Birds on one end and CoD and Military FPSes on the other, and giant corporations seemingly controlling everything.

Maybe it is futile and quixotic, but so what?

Wasteland (and many of other Brian Fargo's projects) were a huge part of my youth.

Ditto for Shadowrun, I've probably got $2000 worth of old SR books, basically every 1st and 2nd edition product they made, as well as all the novels up to then.

Gabriel Knight was one of the most absorbing games I've ever played, I still remember scenes from it vividly.

In those cases, donating was just giving those people that created something special to me something back.

As to other projects, it's about helping people follow their dreams. Every business I started has failed, I haven't been able to sell any of the novels I've written, and I wouldn't even go into my DJing career. But I'm better for trying and failing, at least I don't have to worry about what might have been. If I can help someone else reach for their dreams, if I think that dream is pretty cool, then it's a few bucks well spent as far as I am concerned.

[panda21]

If they never finish, doesn't the donation money go back?

i'm pretty sure thats not the case.

i think KS is cool and all that its allowing these games to be made, but people talk about it as if its a sure thing. sooner or later its bound to go wrong.

sure people have a reputation at stake but some games just end up in development hell or turn out shit, and no one makes games like that on purpose, it just happens. what if Double Fine make another game as bad as Brutal Legend?

[mclem]

People who shit on Kickstarter must live in some alternative dimension where games do not suck. Because, honestly, Kickstarter is one of the last things still making me care at all about video games.

I don't really think current games suck, but I do think the current established funding model is *monumentally* limiting for the future of the industry, and that's why I'm passionate about the potential of Kickstarter.

To me, KS is a sort of like microlending, only for creative stuff, not businesses.

To me, KS is sort of like patronage. Which I think is largely what you mean in your post.

[Dog Problems]

i'm pretty sure thats not the case. i think KS is cool and all that its allowing these games to be made, but people talk about it as if its a sure thing. sooner or later its bound to go wrong. sure people have a reputation at stake but some games just end up in development hell or turn out shit, and no one makes games like that on purpose, it just happens. what if Double Fine make another game as bad as Brutal Legend?

Well, I enjoyed Brutal Legend. In my eyes Double Fine haven't made a bad game yet. I do expect to see some people disappointed with how it turns out, though.

[mavs]

i'm pretty sure thats not the case. i think KS is cool and all that its allowing these games to be made, but people talk about it as if its a sure thing. sooner or later its bound to go wrong. sure people have a reputation at stake but some games just end up in development hell or turn out shit, and no one makes games like that on purpose, it just happens. what if Double Fine make another game as bad as Brutal Legend?

Then we end up with another awesome Double Fine game? Sounds fine to me.

[HP_Wuvcraft]

People who shit on Kickstarter must live in some alternative dimension where games do not suck. Because, honestly, Kickstarter is one of the last things still making me care at all about video games.

It's not even about games. If people want to bottle the entire website down to a single category out of, what, twelve? - that's ludicrous.

In that case, people should be saying that they don't trust VIDEO GAMES on Kickstarter, not Kickstarter as a whole.

And guess what? If you are using Kickstarter as your only option, then your project is already fucked.

[coldvein]

I'm curious: did you people who feel like they're talking about kickstarter as a whole read it here, in this thread first, or on their website first? I read it originally on their site (RSS reader) and I didn't get that sense at all. I feel like the thread title must be framing your interpretation. The actual name of the comic is "Incredibility."

here, duh. i wouldn't read about videogames on the internet anywhere other than gaf.

regardless of the title - it's still a pretty lame comic. pa dudes rule at that, i'm not shocked or anything.

edit: i mean .. what are they really saying? that there is a possibility that ridiculous kickstarter projects exist? that's it? what's next, penny arcade telling me the sky is blue?

[dude]

I think the real test for Kickstarter, to me, is whether it'll just be a tool to revive old games or old genres or will it help foster creativity in new games and young creators. FTL was a sign that Kickstarter can do it.

It's not even about games. If people want to bottle the entire website down to a single category out of, what, twelve? - that's ludicrous. In that case, people should be saying that they don't trust VIDEO GAMES on Kickstarter, not Kickstarter as a whole.

Your'e right, but I think the it's a given the all discussion is about only the video game section of Kickstarter, seeing as how this is a video games forum.

[B_Rik_Schitthaus]

People who shit on Kickstarter must live in some alternative dimension where games do not suck. Because, honestly, Kickstarter is one of the last things still making me care at all about video games.

I like the big budget games, but every generation seems to bring less and less diversity.

Double Fine Adventure
Wasteland 2
The Banner Saga
Shadowrun Returns
Nekro
Leisure Suit Larry

These are the KS I have pledged to, 3 are going to be new worlds and characters, three are going to be returns of long dormant games, and none of them are the type of game to make it through the publisher system without loosing what makes them special.

I'm using the indy space and KS to add the diversity I want in the industry, if that means I fund a few projects that never happen and I loose some money then fine, I'll be careful to try and make sure that doesn't happen but it's not that big of a risk.

[V_Arnold]

I'm curious: did you people who feel like they're talking about kickstarter as a whole read it here, in this thread first, or on their website first? I read it originally on their site (RSS reader) and I didn't get that sense at all. I feel like the thread title must be framing your interpretation. The actual name of the comic is "Incredibility."

It might be just my bad understanding of sentences this afternoon (morning? lol), but I interpreted the end part of his post that went with the comics as a negative stance on KS as a whole - or not necessarily the whole, but the tiered reward system, definitely.

[toythatkills]

To me, KS is a sort of like microlending, only for creative stuff, not businesses. You give them money in the hopes they will make something good with it, not so much necessarily getting something back.

(Most) People "donate" to Kickstarters specifically to get something back. It's a shop. It's just like buying something on amazon except here the product doesn't exist yet. And there's probably some interesting tax loopholes therein.

Regardless, this comic isn't about Kickstarter, it's about a small number of the people that use it. There really doesn't need to be (another) discussion about whether KS is good or bad.

EDIT: (Most)

[mclem]

Double Fine Adventure Wasteland 2 The Banner Saga Shadowrun Returns Nekro Leisure Suit Larry

No Pinkerton Road? Or are you only listing finished funding drives?

[HP_Wuvcraft]

People "donate" to Kickstarters specifically to get something back.

No they don't.

Most people do.

There were a good swath of people that donate to DFA and selected No Reward. I forget the actual number, but it was higher than you'd think.

[coldvein]

what are they really saying? that there is a possibility that ridiculous kickstarter projects exist? that's it? what's next, penny arcade telling me the sky is blue?

anybody? where is the funny? where is the insight? anything?

[Yeef]

It might be just my bad understanding of sentences this afternoon (morning? lol), but I interpreted the end part of his post that went with the comics as a negative stance on KS as a whole - or not necessarily the whole, but the tiered reward system, definitely.

That's not how I took it at all.

The general vibe I got from the comic (and its title) was basically that kickstarters that were bull were fairly easy to spot. Of course Gabe, given his characters, is too foolish to realize it despite how obvious it is. It's the classic sitcom bit: "What idiot would fall for something like that."

*comic relief enters* "You'll never guess what I just bought!"

Basically, I see it as mainly pointing out how transparent bullshit kickstarters are.

[mavs]

It might be just my bad understanding of sentences this afternoon (morning? lol), but I interpreted the end part of his post that went with the comics as a negative stance on KS as a whole - or not necessarily the whole, but the tiered reward system, definitely.

You read it wrong. Wednesday's post doesn't have much to do with video games; board games are an entirely different business. It's about how niche ventures with very limited opportunities to connect with their fans' wallets en masse can now invite their audience to bring forth their dollars whenever they want.

[Mechazawa]

what are they really saying? that there is a possibility that ridiculous kickstarter projects exist? that's it? what's next, penny arcade telling me the sky is blue? anybody? where is the funny? where is the insight? anything?

Well, that's it guys, pack it in. Every joke must now be personally relevatory and funny to coldvein.

We had a good run.

[HP_Wuvcraft]

Well, that's it guys, pack it in. Every joke must now be personally relevatory and funny to coldvein. We had a good run.

It's not that. It's just that the joke was generic and generalizing of a very broad topic.

[michaelius]

(Most) People "donate" to Kickstarters specifically to get something back. It's a shop. It's just like buying something on amazon except here the product doesn't exist yet. And there's probably some interesting tax loopholes therein. Regardless, this comic isn't about Kickstarter, it's about a small number of the people that use it. There really doesn't need to be (another) discussion about whether KS is good or bad. EDIT: (Most)

Didn't we have here picture of someone paying 5 or 10$ in advance for Duke Nukem Forever pre-order 10 years before it was actually released ?

[Aaron]

sure people have a reputation at stake but some games just end up in development hell or turn out shit, and no one makes games like that on purpose, it just happens. what if Double Fine make another game as bad as Brutal Legend?

One problem with Brutal Legend is it tried to do too much. A lower budget game won't have that problem. It also didn't have any exterior input. Most previews and game journalists didn't even know about the RTS elements. They were only shown that when the game was just about to come out. This game already has public exposure, and if something steers real wrong fans will likely guide it back on course.

Probably won't need it though. All of their downloadable games have been excellent. It's easy to be confident this will be something good.

[El-Suave]

This is slightly insulting to the people who pledge. It's strange that this is coming from people who are no strangers to grass roots movements, their charity not being the smallest of them.

[Htown]

I'm pretty sure you guys are misinterpreting that comic pretty badly.

[mclem]

Didn't we have here picture of someone paying 5 or 10$ in advance for Duke Nukem Forever pre-order 10 years before it was actually released ?

That money went towards the store, not towards development, though.

(Well, that said, I guess preorder numbers might be used as evidence that it's worth pouring more money into a project, but it's at best a few steps removed from actually adding to the project's funding)

I'm pretty sure you guys are misinterpreting that comic pretty badly.

The news post should clarify their stance, although looking through their recent news posts you can already get a handle on what they think of Kickstarter.

Hopefully the news post will be added to the OP when it's released.

[RurouniZel]

I don't really feel that the hypothetical of "making the game and running" is a good excuse for the vitriol. Is there a precedent for this that I don't know about?

Nope, just more scare mongering.

Sure, developers could just "take the money and run", but they could do the same things to publishers or investors anyway. Isn't that basically what DNF was for ages?

[Maxim726X]

People who shit on Kickstarter must live in some alternative dimension where games do not suck. Because, honestly, Kickstarter is one of the last things still making me care at all about video games.

I agree... Absolutely love the concept. Donate for a game you would love to see get made. If it doesn't- no harm no foul. If it does- You'll be getting a copy of a game that you helped fund.

I'm sure eventuallu there will be a scam artist out there who will take the money and run, but that doesn't appear to be the case yet.

[coldvein]

I agree... Absolutely love the concept. Donate for a game you would love to see get made. If it doesn't- no harm no foul. If it does- You'll be getting a copy of a game that you helped fund.

if it doesn't, at least there's black ops 2!

[GrandHarrier]

When companies are PIECES OF SHIT which don't want to try anything DIFFERENT.

Making games using old concepts is different?

[SovanJedi]

Oh my God, how do some of you not understand that this isn't aimed at Kickstarter as a whole? Hell, they did a comic before where they praised the site! It's just making fun of the overblown proposals that stink of scamming, like Your World. It's not rocket science.

what are they really saying? that there is a possibility that ridiculous kickstarter projects exist? that's it? what's next, penny arcade telling me the sky is blue?

Because... it's... funny? And that's what observational comedy is about?

What is it with Kickstarter threads lately attracting the boneheaded, hate-filled stupidity? Why is it so bad that some of us want the games here to come into existence when before there was no chance for it to happen? I don't need your scaremongering to be reminded that some people on the internet might be scumbags that will run away with the money, I decide on that when I decide not to pledge to a project with my hard-earned cash.

Gach... This is making my blood boil. I need a time out.

[Alextended]

Just curious for all you guys defending KS, how much swag and games from donating to KS have you guys gotten? Just curious.

Just curious for you one guy attacking KS, how much money from donating to KS have you guy lost? Just curious.

See, bullshit work both ways and all you have said is, omg, some shit could go down, and all people need to say is, omg, some shit could also not go down in response. You're not any more right with your negative opinion based on nothing but "what ifs" than the people who have a positive opinion based on similar "what ifs" (and maybe an educated guess of some people's integrity when it comes to projects started by people whose backgrounds can be somewhat known to us).

And who the fuck are you to tell others where they should(n't) give their money, that they also worked for? Nobody said you should give money to anyone, if you're content with just the games that are released outside Kickstarter, fine, other people clearly aren't as content and thus wanted to help some of these KS projects get off the ground, fully aware of the risks involved. What's it to you? Are someone's rights violated, did someone force you to donate, or what is going on here exactly, you're being pretty damn fierce about this whole thing, all condescending like as if you know more than other people do or something, what is that about?

Also, while Kickstarter itself can't and shouldn't check on the legality of every project (though when it comes to their attention they most definitely should shut some down, like they've done at least once) that doesn't mean pledgers cannot take legal action if someone takes the money and runs, though there's been no precedent on how a trial over such an issue would go down.

[coldvein]

Oh my God, how do some of you not understand that this isn't aimed at Kickstarter as a whole? Hell, they did a comic before where they praised the site! It's just making fun of the overblown proposals that stink of scamming, like Your World. It's not rocket science.

totally with you.

Because... it's... funny?

okay, you lost me.

[Machine]

I found it interesting that PA points to the Ogre boardgame as a successful Kickstarter. Steve Jackson is a well-known and successful boardgame designer and Ogre is one of his more successful games. The Kickstarter was to get funding to update the game and release a new edition since the game has been out of print for a long time. No risk and high upside, right? The problem is that you had to pledge $100 to get a copy of the game. I was interested until I saw that figure. I'll be able to walk into a shop and buy a copy of this new edition for half that amount once it comes out, why would I pitch in an extra $50 to the Kickstarter when all I get in addition to the game is some pretty weak swag? Obviously a lot of people disagree with me on this since they exceeded their goal but I just don't get it. I think they knew the demand was there and they planned to make a new edition, this just feels like a way for them to fleece the over-eager enthusiasts of a little extra cash.

[-COOLIO-]

I like PA but when they are wrong, they are really fucking wrong.

theyre not against kickstarters

it's a joke about what could happen

because among other things they run a web comic

that has jokes

[Bolt Vanderhuge]

That comic's not shitting on Kickstarter as a whole. Just making fun of the super shady ones crazy people put up.

[ScreenSplitter]

Can't say I agree with Kickstarter as a whole, but as soon as they put a Timesplitters kickstarter, frymoney.jpg.

[mclem]

Whoever changed the thread title: thank you.

[Servizio]

You know, I expected a backlash against Kickstarter, but I figured it would come with a successfully funded scam, or when someone who works at a AAA publishing house poo-poo'd the model after an unprecedented success. Surprised to see so much push back so soon.

Maybe with this degree of paranoia there won't be any blatant scams, but there will be disappointment with delivered games that could be been better but for mismanaged funds. Yes, that sounds more likely.

[V_Arnold]

You read it wrong. Wednesday's post doesn't have much to do with video games; board games are an entirely different business. It's about how niche ventures with very limited opportunities to connect with their fans' wallets en masse can now invite their audience to bring forth their dollars whenever they want.

Well, alright then. :)

[Corto]

Who would say no to a Lamborghini?

[akira28]

Ah, I didn't know that. That's a very valid concern. Even still, I'd rather KS not have to nuke the forest for a few bad apples.

nAH. If there was ever a take the money and run scenario, everyone involved would have their reputations ruined. The only kickstarters I supported were the Wasteland and Shadowrun ones. There was the instance where there was a game company that basically didn't exist had a Kickstarter, but they were found out, and there was no way for them to reach full funding, and they only raised a few thousand dollars. No money was lost because none of the pledges were collected. This Penny Arcade comic is for those few people who actually made pledges, sight unseen, to a no-name company with a hilariously generic game idea and nothing concrete to show for it.

I donated to people who were known in the industry, who had made successful games before, and who would be positively ruined and shunned if they somehow swindled many thousands of people. Hell, there's not even a guarantee that these KS games will be what we expect of them, but there is a reasonable expectation of a return. These people are putting their names on the line. With lesser known projects, it's more of a crapshoot, but even then, there would be consequences.

It was worth it to me to spend 30 bucks for something I might have never seen before, and had waited 20 years to play a sequel to. I'm not even worried about who I backed. But of course everyone should always do their research and spend their money wisely.

This was a throwaway comic with a subject lifted straight out of gaming news headlines.

[RPGCrazied]

I find it funny, that after Double Fine's kickstarter success everyone and their dog is trying to kickstart something. I don't mind, love to have a non publisher future.

[TheSeks]

I like PA but when they are wrong, they are really fucking wrong.

Okay, explain to us how they're wrong. You've got a millionare that can't type asking for more money to fund his MMO. You've got kids asking for funding for what basically amounts to an RPGMaker2000 game. You've got...

Sure, there's Double Fine and Wasteland success stories, but that's because those guys can be mostly trusted to bring a quality product out. "John Videogames" can't. Throwing money at them with no proof of concept or quality is pretty stupid. That's what PA is pointing out.

[Stumpokapow]

Whoever changed the thread title: thank you.

yw

[Durante]

Making games using old concepts is different?

When no one has used those concepts in a decade? Absolutely.

[udivision]

Who would say no to a Lamborghini?

It's too subtle in the middle of the day.
Batmobile for me.

[Corto]

It's too subtle in the middle of the day. Batmobile for me.

Too late... :(

[Owensboro]

Well this tread devolved into a bunch of people yelling at each other over something that hasn't been proven right or wrong yet. Can't we all just agree that the following are going to happen:

1) There will be a video game kickstarter scam that successfully takes people's money.
2) When the first major game is released (DFA, Wasteland 2, Shadowrun, etc.) a vocal amount of people will be angry because it's not exactly what they wanted. They will point out all faults.
3) When the first major game is realeased (DFA, Wasteland 2, Shadowrun, etc.) a vocal amount of people will love it because they have a game that wouldn't be made anymore. They will look past faults.
4) One major Kickstarter will bomb.
5) One major Kickstarter will be a success.

Anything else?

[udivision]

Too late... :(

;_;

[Durante]

Anything else?

X) Kickstarter will get games made that couldn't have been made otherwise, thus fulfilling its goal.

And that's the only one that really counts.

[reptilescorpio]

They are talking about this, and the fucking terrible Kickstarter pledge video that should have instantly brought up alarm bells. It was a direct parody of the video.

Kickstopped: The Strange Case of Mythic: Gods & Men

While this last month or so has littered the digital ground with the beautiful blossom of Kickstarter triumphs (and not just in games; dunno about you, but I am in MAXIMUM NERDJOY mode about a Pebble watch winging its way to me later this year) this week has shown the potentially seedy underbelly of rampant crowdsourcing. The strange, faintly disturbing tale of Mythic: The Story of Gods and Men was uncovered by Something Awful, picked up by our very own forum and from there sent on to Reddit, which in turn led to the project in question’s shutting down.