[Owensboro]

X) Kickstarter will get games made that couldn't have been made otherwise, thus fulfilling its goal. And that's the only one that really counts.

I completely agree. I'm so pumped for Wasteland 2 :)

[Sol..]

... i don't understand it

yuuuuuuuuuup

[Sullen]

People who shit on Kickstarter must live in some alternative dimension where games do not suck. Because, honestly, Kickstarter is one of the last things still making me care at all about video games.

I am giving you an internet high-five right now. 1.) Because you are absolutely right and I feel the same about the state of video games 2.) Because Nobilis is badass; so your avatar is automatically awesome, which means you are too.

[IrishNinja]

who are these youthful characters with heads full of hair? dem sideburns!

hey, welcome back coldvein!

ps ace of base was great, fuck ya life

[Conciliator]

The blog post for this one isn't up yet, yeah? I don't think they're shitting on kickstarter in general, I just bet they've found some particularly shady projects and are poking fun that. I've never donated to a kickstarter project and only been on the website a couple times, but I could tell you that there's going to be videogame-related hoaxes on there right now without even looking at, because people go where the money is, and all of the sudden there's a bunch of money for videogames in KS.

[Brainiac 8]

Haha, I love Penny Arcade.

You can online with friends...or enemies!

[Sefirosu]

Its far too early to even try and judge the effect that KS is having on the industry, whilst it does sound like every backer is taking a much larger risk than they would be if they simply bought a retail game the benefits of this have the potential to be huge, some of these games would have never been funded if not for KS after all, however there is always the chance that these games could either suck or simply never see completion, in which case every backer has lost out.

Due the relative new-ness of KS we have to see how the first major projects funded on KS deliver, because if they let the backers down then KS will see a major hit in how willing people are to back new projects.

KS has honestly made things interesting lately to say the least.

[Corto]

This comic needs a follow up.

"Thank you pledgers! As we surpassed our initial goal we now have a new goal post of 100.000.000 dollars. If we reach this goal we will add more RPGs, more depth, additional quests and weapons, and more RPGs. We are also in the editing stage of the behind the scenes documentary first chapter starring myself and the whole team (my brother in-law and my friend Eddie) snorting blow and heavy partying with some prostitutes. Keep this thing rolling!"

[Gez]

Just curious for all you guys defending KS, how much swag and games from donating to KS have you guys gotten? Just curious.

I have got my signed Angry Video Game Nerd picture framed on my wall, I regret nothing!

[Pociask]

Does that sound like the writings of someone who thinks that everything on Kickstarter is a massive scam?

They've been giving a spot light to several projects such as these. Comic is clearly not aimed at all Kickstarter projects, just scams.

[abasm]

What I find more worrisome is the fact that almost any game that succeeds on Kickstarter is either

A) A sequel.
B) Being made by someone famous. (Within the right circles.)

Nearly every proposal occupies a genre/series that already exists, effectively allowing people to buy more of the same. Now, this isn't a bad thing--the best games are often remakes and sequels. It's just that the Kickstarter model isn't equipped to encourage the growth of the medium, as nobody is truly willing to bet money on something they can't connect to on some level. Your game has to HAVE an audience, however small, or it won't get made, and this limits the breadth of what can be funded.

[mclem]

Nearly every proposal occupies a genre/series that already exists, effectively allowing people to buy more of the same. Now, this isn't a bad thing--the best games are often remakes and sequels. It's just that the Kickstarter model isn't equipped to encourage the growth of the medium, as nobody is truly willing to bet money on something they can't connect to on some level. Your game has to HAVE an audience, however small, or it won't get made, and this limits the breadth of what can be funded.

I'd be willing to donate to something entirely new if it's successfully pitched to me, but the successful pitch is difficult when it can't be couched in terms I can relate to concepts I understand.

Of course, the existing publisher model has exactly the same issue; indeed, moreso, because *they* need to be confident that they can turn a profit, whereas a kickstarter project just has to stay within budget.

Certainly, delving into new areas can only really be accomplished by people not immediately motivated by profit, or companies brave enough to take a significant risk (See: Wii Sports. Sure, in hindsight, it's massive, but that was a monumental risk at the time. Offset by the Wii's reduced power, but still a risk.). That said, I think that it could be argued that resurrecting 'dead' genres is, arguably, a form of growing the medium - and those who remember and liked those genres when they were successful *will* be able to connect to the project.

[Azih]

What I find more worrisome is the fact that almost any game that succeeds on Kickstarter is either A) A sequel. B) Being made by someone famous. (Within the right circles.) Nearly every proposal occupies a genre/series that already exists, effectively allowing people to buy more of the same. Now, this isn't a bad thing--the best games are often remakes and sequels. It's just that the Kickstarter model isn't equipped to encourage the growth of the medium, as nobody is truly willing to bet money on something they can't connect to on some level. Your game has to HAVE an audience, however small, or it won't get made, and this limits the breadth of what can be funded.

Well in order to get people to give you their money you have to be able to display some level of trustworthiness or a track record to convince them that you can actually deliver what you are promising.

And just because it's made by someone famous doesn't mean that it can't grow the medium. Take a look at The Banner Saga. It seems to be a very unique idea and definitely not a sequel to anything thematically or mechanically even though it gets its credibility from the involvement of 'famous' ex Bioware employees.

[Haunted]

The PA guys are hugely supportive of Kickstarter. Like most other people on GAF who see huge potential in Kickstarter to provide a solid alternative to the existing poisonous publishing model, really.

Doesn't mean that scammers (which do exist on KS, denying that means you're blind) aren't a good opportunity to poke fun at in a comic. We were all laughing at the "Your World" pitch, and rightfully so.

[scy]

Kickstarter threads seem to collectively lower everyone's IQ by about 23 points :|

[Alextended]

What I find more worrisome is the fact that almost any game that succeeds on Kickstarter is either A) A sequel. B) Being made by someone famous. (Within the right circles.) Nearly every proposal occupies a genre/series that already exists, effectively allowing people to buy more of the same. Now, this isn't a bad thing--the best games are often remakes and sequels. It's just that the Kickstarter model isn't equipped to encourage the growth of the medium, as nobody is truly willing to bet money on something they can't connect to on some level. Your game has to HAVE an audience, however small, or it won't get made, and this limits the breadth of what can be funded.

I don't think this is true on any level. Maybe if you think only the handful recent high profile projects exist, but, again, that's not true, there are plenty more that get successfully funded for a few tens of thousands or less. Someone even posted a list of like a dozen successfully funded iOS games when people argued iOS games don't get funded in the Republique thread (which doesn't mean Republique's issue wasn't the platform of course, considering the gap in the required amount, but that's for another topic).

And well, existing genres? Come on, that's not at all similar to being part of an existing series, anything one makes will match an established genre, from interactive fiction to strategy to puzzle to music to adventure to a vague action, rpg, horror, survival or whatever other description. If it's interactive, you can assign it to an existing video game genre, it's as simple as that. That doesn't mean it's more of the same. If it was, people wouldn't care to pledge and just get what's already out there. The fact FTL can fit as some kind of roguelike or strategy genre doesn't mean there's anything like it that I can go and buy right now from some big or small publisher. Or that if something vaguely similar exists I can't actually hate it yet like this take on it.

Your game has to HAVE an audience, however small, or it won't get made, and this limits the breadth of what can be funded.

How is that worrisome? This was never meant to be a charity, giving someone money to realise their own dreams, if they don't happen to align with the dreams of at least a few other people who are willing to support it... If you can sell people, even on a new concept, they could pledge, if you can't convince them you can make it and they'd enjoy it then why would/should they feel obliged? This still gives someone a hell of a lot better chances than trying to pitch this supposed wholly new concept to a publisher.

Take a look at The Banner Saga.

That's not by someone famous and works against his point on that level alone. Having worked on The Old Republic which is pretty much all I know of them and only because they mentioned it doesn't mean they're famous. Any other indie could have at some point been part of a larger company too, it's not exactly rare for people to have jobs before trying to be independent.

[Azih]

The great thing about Kickstarter from my point of view is that it breaks the hold of publishers and their marketing departments as the sole arbiters of what games people are willing to buy and provides an avenue for actual gamers to have a direct say.

The publishers were of the opinion that people don't want a new Tim Schafer adventure game, a Wasteland 2, a Banner Saga, a new Shadowrun. People disagreed and now those games are being made. I hope all of them are roaring successes as well.

And for the really experimental stuff we've got small Flash games and mods to try out new concepts. I meant that's where tower defense, catapault, and MOBA games came from.

[sangreal]

I agree... Absolutely love the concept. Donate for a game you would love to see get made. If it doesn't- no harm no foul. If it does- You'll be getting a copy of a game that you helped fund.

Words you will find nowhere on kickstarter.com: donate

The creator has an obligation to either provide the reward or a refund (per the terms), so it is a pretty big deal 'if it doesn't [get made]'. This is why kickstarter has the all-or-nothing funding model which is designed to make sure you get everything you need and don't run into a 'partial funding' situation. Eventually someone will sue a creator that does not deliver. Backing a kickstarter project is a (pre) purchase, unless you specifically ask for 'No Reward'

Project Creators agree to make a good faith attempt to fulfill each reward by its Estimated Delivery Date. Project Creators are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill.

You might not care about the distinction for a $15 game, but for a $150 watch or $1000 bike you might change your tune

[Mzo]

They're usually pretty topical, so I think this is a joke playing on that one Kickstarter that was kind of shady where the dude just ducked out of the project.

I don't think this is meant as a general mockery of ALL of Kickstarter, and I think it's weird to assume that.

[Slayven]

I would only kickstart if I got part of profits.

[cametall]

I don't think they're shitting on Kickstarter as whole here. There was a news post on the PA site a few days ago about how some users uncovered a Kickstarter setup to just take money from people and not develop a game.

I'm guessing (haven't looked at the site today) that is what brought about this comic. A couple weeks ago Tycho posted links to some Kickstarter(s) he wanted to support, or wanted people to support. Granted it was for tabletop games I believe.

[Ignis Fatuus]

Penny Arcade loves Kickstarter and says as much in their news posts. They've promoted a ton of them.

[Haunted]

I'm pretty sure you guys are misinterpreting that comic pretty badly.

theyre not against kickstarters it's a joke about what could happen because among other things they run a web comic that has jokes

That comic's not shitting on Kickstarter as a whole. Just making fun of the super shady ones crazy people put up.

Exactly. Quoted out of concern that people aren't seeing this.

What I find more worrisome is the fact that almost any game that succeeds on Kickstarter is either A) A sequel. B) Being made by someone famous. (Within the right circles.)

That is factually incorrect. It's basically the other way around. Almost any game that succeeds on Kickstarter is either fresh or being made by unknown people.

If you've only heard of Kickstarter since the DFA news and been following the trend on related gaming sites but not Kickstarter itself, it's to be expected that you'd get such a warped perspective. These big projects that are reported on on different sites do hog the majority of media attention, but there's basically a constant stream of small gaming Kickstarters which get funded (and have been for years now), vastly outnumbering the handful of big budget propositions from Schafer, Fargo, Al Lowe and Jane Jensen.

[Takuan]

I liked the d20.

[Dead Man]

Then please, oh mighty kickstarter sage, enlighten me, please Kickstarter is still a crock of shit IMO. Maybe I'm "missing the point" but I don't see ANY point in giving someone money unless they give me a product in return. But hey, I work for the money I have. My point really is that it's just the newest thing that caters to people who have more money than sense. Pet rock? Snuggies? They might as well make Kickstarter ads AS SEEN ON TV!! It's basically the same shit, you're just "donating" 19.95 instead.

You seem really fucking angry about something that is simply a different funding model that may or may not succeed in the long term.

[Jintor]

Exactly. Quoted out of concern that people aren't seeing this.

People need to stop posting PA comics as if they're structured debates. Their news posts, maybe. Their comics are literally just the two of them in a room throwing ideas at each other until they think something is funny.

God I wish they still made podcasts of their writing process. That was the most fascinating shit.

[Gez]

Why do people always ignore Indiegogo when it comes to these pub funds? It's being around since 2008 just like KS, it offers international support which Kickstarter doesn't and it has Paypal as an option.

I already know the answer but its a shame it gets ignored just because the craze started on Kickstarter.

[ReaperXL07]

People who shit on Kickstarter must live in some alternative dimension where games do not suck. Because, honestly, Kickstarter is one of the last things still making me care at all about video games.

I have personally played tons of games this gen, and every previous gen that do not suck. I swear there are alot of good things about Gaf, but seriously some of you are jaded as fuck if you think we don't get any good games anymore. This is a completely subjective thing though, all I can ask is if you hate games so much why even bother playing them anymore?

As for the Kickstarter stuff, I like the idea of it all, hell I even admitted that I would kickstart JRPG localization, but to say that this whole thing does not come with some really shady possibilities is alittle disingenuous, guys like Double fine I have little doubt will screw people, but i've seen quite a few Kickstarters that I really don't see it ending well for anyone, are we really pretending that there are people out there that wont take advantage of this whole thing to get some easy money? If someone is asking for kickstarter for a game, but has no reputation to begin with, I really don't they worried about losing it, or the "respect" of gamers.

[crazygambit]

Yup you are. Every kickstarter I've funded I'm getting a promise of the finished product in return for. maybe you should have read before rant incredible

Fixed. Subtle, but very important difference. Still I see Kickstarter as useful since it allows games that otherwise would never have been greenlit, to actually get made. However they could certainly do more to protect users from scammers.

[Javaman]

I'm glad other people are willing to front their money since I'm sure not going to. I'd rather pick up the finished products for a couple buck more once I see if it's worth it.

[mclem]

I'm glad other people are willing to front their money since I'm sure not going to. I'd rather pick up the finished products for a couple buck more once I see if it's worth it.

Being unwilling to take a risk is fine, but in any development process *someone* needs to take on a risk. If sufficient people aren't willing to then the only people willing to take on said risk will be the big publishers, with all the negatives (and, to be fair, positives) that that brings.

[abercrombie]

As far as PA comics are concerned I usually read them as I would Sci-Fi. That is I do not take what is written in the comic as a commentary on the present state of a situation but rather a plausible scenario pending our actions towards.

I pledged money to the Double Fine KS, I know they have employees, a reputation, and a functioning studio. Also, I like their other games so I doubt I will be disappointed with the final result. On the other hand, there are some KS's out there that I'm not so keen on. What happens when the final product falls short of expectations? I suspect these early, ideal, halcyon days of KS will suddenly hit raw reality for a lot of people; shit happens. Then there are the scammers/cons who get their jollies by screwing you out of your money.

Pledgers beware I suppose is the message to be learned here.

[Hellsing321]

Just curious for all you guys defending KS, how much swag and games from donating to KS have you guys gotten? Just curious.

Well for the Double Fine one, I've already gotten access to the first episode of the documentary and some neat bonus videos which they promised. So far so good!

[Hot Coldman]

Um I'm pretty sure this is just another "Gabe is a fucking dumbass" story

[MrPliskin]

Yeah those games are selling well also here's this new ace of base album dude i saw the sign!! Debatable. Good games are opinion based, but the stuff on KS can't really hold a candle to a huge team of people working on a game.

WTF is this shit? You say a "good game" is subjective, but then objectively state that there's no way this stuff will be as good as a big publisher game?

TROLLOLOLOL?

[ToxicAdam]

I can't believe the amount of over-reactions in this thread. Both ways.

I laughed at the comic.

[GungHo]

What I find more worrisome is the fact that almost any game that succeeds on Kickstarter is either A) A sequel. B) Being made by someone famous. (Within the right circles.)

Would you buy into a gold mine in Montana if the guy running the mine

1) Had no mining experience
2) Had no mining equipment
3) Couldn't demonstrate that gold was found anywhere in Montana
4) Couldn't demonstrate the gold, gold dust, or other geological survey that made him think that he'd even found a vein of gold

It's a business venture. They're asking people to speculate on entertainment by paying their salaries and fronting them on all their capital. Of course people are going to pay into the things that seem to have a more favorable risk/reward ratio.

Fixed. Subtle, but very important difference. Still I see Kickstarter as useful since it allows games that otherwise would never have been greenlit, to actually get made. However they could certainly do more to protect users from scammers.

You could ask for more oversight and general compliance, but that's just going to make costs soar. Who is going to run the Audit Kickstart?

[Roto13]

Amazing how people read this three-panel comic and think it's about every Kickstarter ever made.

Simply amazing.

[runningjoke]

God I wish they still made podcasts of their writing process. That was the most fascinating shit.

It's in video form now. http://penny-arcade.com/patv/show/pa-the-series the ones marked 4th panel.

[Alextended]

What happens when the final product falls short of expectations?

Same thing that happens when people pre-order or buy a game that wasn't Kickstarted yet still falls short. That is, nothing much, one just keeps trying to make informed decisions before giving money, I'm sure that works for most seasoned gamers more often than it doesn't. When it doesn't, nobody decides to stop buying games altogether so I don't think the majority will stop being willing to Kickstart projects altogether either, rather than simply continue to expect to be convinced by the developers, via past works, signs of investment on their part, ideas that appear to be desirable yet practical, etc.

Some projects will deliver, some won't, everyone is already aware of this, it's not some well kept secret people are oblivious to.

[Polk]

What I find more worrisome is the fact that almost any game that succeeds on Kickstarter is either A) A sequel. B) Being made by someone famous. (Within the right circles.)

If you are talking about spotlighted projects, sure.
But there are lot of smaller games developed by nobodys. Of course there's little chance for nobody to get 1M+ of founding through KS right now. But it will change when people will start to take advantage (in good way) of KS.
Right now there are four groups - small modest projects by nobodys, stupid ambitious projects by nobodys who know jack shit about managing projects that big, and medium projects by "famous" people, and scams.
I'm sure there will be decline in groups 2 and 4 (at least percentage wise) over time.

[KniveSmith]

Ok, this first page is ridiculous. Context people.

For the last week or two, Penny Arcade has been linking and pimping out a number of different Kickstarter campaigns. They're Kickstarter supporters, people. Just read through their last couple of posts.

Then this week, an actual Kickstarter scam comes out. So they make fun of it. Just that scam, and the type of people who unfortunately fall for them.

It's... painful to read GAF at times.

[oneils]

What is happening here? We have kickstarter fanboys now? Relax, people. Chill - it is all good.

[SatelliteOfLove]

I see the comic has the black 'n whiters out in force.

You can online with your friends

A new phrase enters my lexicon!

[BHZ Mayor]

Does anyone else see the "you can online with your friends" bit as sort of a throwback dig at "I wwebsite as on the internet"?

[Youta Mottenai]

Um I'm pretty sure this is just another "Gabe is a fucking dumbass" story

Exactly.
Guess what people, if they made a strip about a guy selling some "uses quantum properties and ki exotic fruit" juice, and Gabe bought it at $30 a bottle it doesn't mean they are against juice.

Scammers and "Gabe is a dumbass" are the key words here.

[Famassu]

Oh shit they finished the new Wasteland? I was under the impression that it wasn't even close to being started, but who knows I don't live in the future. I think PA hit the nail right on the head, KS is ridiculous. What's wrong with having game COMPANIES that are well established for making GOOD GAMES ALREADY make games? It's only been working well for the past FOREVER

Your post is stupid & full of BS.

Kickstarter is one of the best things to happen to gaming in the recent years, that's a fact, not an opinion. Yeah, maybe not every game will turn out TEH BEST EVER, but at least we get a CHANCE of getting the kind of games WE want, not the kind of games EAs focus testers want (i.e. shit like Mass Effect & Dragon Age 2).

The fact that Wasteland 2 only exists through Kickstarter is proof enough that you understand shit about this stuff. "It's" obviously NOT working well and hasn't been working well for a long time.

[Ferrio]

Has a single game came out from kickstarter yet? Like in actually released and you can buy it?

[EmCeeGramr]

Has a single game came out from kickstarter yet? Like in actually released and you can buy it?

Yes, I think several games have come out from it. Kickstarter has been around for years, it's just that Double Fine started the bandwagon.

[Seraphinianus]

Amazing how people read this three-panel comic and think it's about every Kickstarter ever made. Simply amazing.

I think a ridiculous number of people on this site construe things in the most negative way possible and are completely lost when it comes to subtlety/things not explicitly disclaimed in bold lettering.