[UncleSporky]

That's definitely not true. TMNT 2 Return to the Sewers had voice samples. I'm not saying the GB's sound isn't worse, just that it can play voice samples. Not sure what kind of trick it uses though.

I should have said it didn't have NES's DPCM channel but I didn't think most people would know what that meant. :P Basically it means the NES natively supports wav-style sound effects - PCM, actually, and they're still very crappy quality - while on GB they would've had to tediously program a sound driver to do the same thing at even worse quality.

Compare the quality of GB's voice samples with something like this.

[AndyMoogle]

I'm no techie, but based on what I've played, the 3DS is at least Gamecube-esque... Might be stronger in some areas (shaders), weaker in others (resolution), but even with 3D on, it gets the job done. Mario Kart 7 seems on par with Double Dash Resident Evil Revelations seems on par with RE4 Mario 3D Land is pretty Godly Zelda OOT isn't great but that's based off an N64 game SF IV looked alright but the static backgrounds hurt (no direct GC comparison though)

Double Dash looks better than MK7. Not even questionable.

RE: Revelations is nowhere near RE4 when it comes to amount of enemies on screen at once and the size of the areas. Sure, the models look decent thanks to way better shaders than GC was capable of; but, they clearly don't have as many polys as the RE4 models. Revelations also has plenty of frame drops, and the animations are not as good as in RE4.

Mario 3D Land is another game that isn't pushing many polygons at all. The areas are really simplistic. Super Mario Sunshine is definitely more impressive.

I'd say that it's very obvious that the 3DS isn't even close to pushing the same amount of polygons as GC.

[Medalion]

Right, but are we sure that's due to tech limitations than just game design choices to fit a small low-res screen?

[nincompoop]

* Capcom and Nintendo

Not really, Nintendo's games do a good job showing off the 3DS's shader capabilities, but are seriously lacking in detail when compared to similar games on the Wii and Gamecube. Also none of their 3DS games run at 60 fps except Mario Kart and a few simple-looking eshop games, while almost every major Nintendo release on the Wii runs at 60.

[Medalion]

Gaming isn't about code optimizing, it's about the player control experience duh

[OmegaZero]

Yep, wait 10 more years and you'll know as much about 3DS and Wii and Gamecube

Looks like it.

Haha, Sorry. :P Old hardware is so much more fun to talk about than newer hardware in retrospect. Maybe because of the technical limitations.

Not saying it's a bad thing. ;)
It's actually pretty cool, in fact.

I was hoping that by now, there'd be some definite answers, but it looks like nothing has really changed from the speculation topics and threads I read months ago.

Anyway, when I was playing MGS3D, I thought it was interesting how turning on 3D didn't affect the framerate at all. Not sure if that's saying anything about the portmake itself or the 3DS's power, but you never know.

[UncleSporky]

Anyway, when I was playing MGS3D, I thought it was interesting how turning on 3D didn't affect the framerate at all. Not sure if that's saying anything about the portmake itself or the 3DS's power, but you never know.

Turning off 3D will hardly ever do anything throughout the system's life, seriously. Basically only Capcom has supported slight improvements and they probably had to do some crazy optimizations to even do what they did.

It takes real work to improve games while 3D is off, they can't just flip a switch and whoa 2xAA and 60 FPS instantly.

[thestopsign]

Why is this a thing.

Edit: Just read the thread, it's a thing.

[Luigiv]

Turning off 3D will hardly ever do anything throughout the system's life, seriously. Basically only Capcom has supported slight improvements and they probably had to do some crazy optimizations to even do what they did. It takes real work to improve games while 3D is off, they can't just flip a switch and whoa 2xAA and 60 FPS instantly.

No they didn't and yes they can, figuratively. 2xAA is free and wholly trivial to implement. You're already rendering 2 views with adjustable camera offset, all you need to do to double the AA is stick the two cameras really close together and combine the colours. This is known as jitter sampling and is the exact technique Capcom uses.

Doubling the framerate is indeed another story, though, and does indeed require extra optimisation to achieve since 60fps in 2D is more hardware intensive than 30fps in 3D. That being said, there are more ways "improving the framerate" can be interpretted. There's no reason devs can't at least smooth out an unstable framerate in 2D. All that would really require them to do is disable the second view and devote the freed resources to the remaining view. Unfortunately most games do not appear to this and when 3D is disabled they simply hide the second view/do reallocate unused resources.

[FLAguy954]

A quote from grans on Gamefaqs:

Simply put, some developers put effort into their work, some don't. Konami looked like they were going to put some effort into their game when they teased the Naked Sample as potential for the system (and even said the demo was rushed and not nearly using the full power of the 3DS). But then the **** hit the fan when it turned out the next year that Snake Eater 3D had been downgraded into a poor port. And little improvement was even made to the game since E3. It's pretty clear that they just didn't want to put the effort into it. The only noteworthy graphical addition were some slightly better reflection effects and normal mapping on a couple of characters. Unfortunately the game runs like molasses consistently, and has numerous other downgrades in geometry and draw distance. So the visual additions are almost moot. Naked Sample, a real time demo rushed out in only a couple of months and not using the system's full potential (outsourced too apparently), looks much better than the retail game. Ubisoft pulled this nonsense too, just look at Rayman 3D, a buggy untested mess of a Rayman 2 port with a choppy framerate and removed lighting (what a disgrace, especially for a system with such impressive lighting capabilities). Or their port of Splinter Cell Chaos Theory to 3DS as well, heck any of their launch titles. The simple fact that there exists games such as RE:Revelations, Nano Assault, Kid Icarus Uprising, etc that DO look as good or better than Wii games should clue you in that some developers aren't putting any effort into their games. And that some are. Just look at Monster Hunter Tri G, Capcom ported a graphically top quality Wii game to the 3DS not only visually intact but also visually enhanced (new lighting and shadow effects). And running at twice the framerate of the original even in 3D. Monster Hunter 4 in the meantime looks like it surpasses Tri G visually. And you wouldn't judge the Wii's visual power for instance by scraping the bottom of the barrel and using a game like say, Ninjabread Man, would you? There are always going to be those developers who put no effort into their games for ANY system. When the GBA got downgraded ports of SNES or Genesis games, many people claimed the GBA wasn't as powerful as the originals and couldn't play them (despite a large amount of other games far more technically advanced than anything on SNES or Genesis). Developers can create 3DS games without 3D. I think i recall there actually being one or two. But it's not eating much power anyways. You already pretty much get all the benefits of having 2D only by simply turning off the 3D slider for some games. This may either improve the framerate slightly and/or apply anti aliasing. From: STN79 | #003 Anybody thinking the 3DS is more powerfull than Wii is only kidding themselves. It might be slightly better than PS2 but not by much. 3DS is basically a handheld Gamecube. It's not just a thought, it's a fact. The ARM11 CPU in the 3DS outperforms the Wii's specific PowerPC CPU clock for clock, it can even beat it at low clock speeds. The 3DS also has more ram than Wii, which also happens to be speedier. And the GPU is more flexible than Wii's, able to outperform the Gamecube in polygon power as well as pushing better and more advanced shader effects than any last gen console. Besides the technical aspects, multiple respected developers have confirmed by words and proven in game form that the 3DS is more powerful than Wii. This includes High Voltage, makers of Conduit (widely considered the greatest technical achievement on the Wii). They even ported the Conduit 2 engine to the 3DS intact and claimed it was more capable than Wii. Not to mention Capcom with all the magic they're pulling off with their MT Framework Mobile, as well as Shin'en with Nano Assault.

And also his post addressing emulation and porting:

The 3DS certainly cannot emulate a Wii or Gamecube, i don't know why anyone would think it could. It can however run visually improved ports of remakes of Wii/GC games. A system can easily be more powerful than another, but that doesn't mean it's able to emulate it. Monster Hunter Tri G for example is a visually improved port of the Wii version. However, if you put the original unaltered Tri ripped strait from the Wii disk on the 3DS and attempted to run it under emulation, the 3DS wouldn't be able to do it. Tri G was ported to Capcom's mobile MT Framework engine and coded specifically for the 3DS' hardware. As such, it looks and runs much better than the original. Using Mario 3D Land is a horrible example for the 3DS' capabilities, you're ignoring all the many games that heavily surpass it graphically (cherry picking and rigging the argument). With the exception of some reflection effects on a tower near the end of the game, the game would likely have been possible on Dreamcast or PSP. The game wasn't designed to push the system and it's very clear compared to other games that it isn't (even some of the system's launch games look superior visually). Kid Icarus Uprising and Nano Assault for example look miles above the visuals in Mario 3D Land. Nano Assault specifically is a good game to compare to Galaxy in terms of graphical power.

[Andrex]

Monster Hunter 4 in the meantime looks like it surpasses Tri G visually.

Agreed with him until this. I don't know how anyone can say this unless more updated media has been released since the trailer that I haven't seen.

This includes High Voltage, makers of Conduit (widely considered the greatest technical achievement on the Wii).

And also this. :lol

[Luigiv]

Agreed with him until this. I don't know how anyone can say this unless more updated media has been released since the trailer that I haven't seen. And also this. :lol

He also says this, which is incredibly dubious.

The ARM11 CPU in the 3DS outperforms the Wii's specific PowerPC CPU clock for clock, it can even beat it at low clock speeds. The 3DS also has more ram than Wii, which also happens to be speedier.

Whilst I couldn't really say for sure, I imagine the parts in bold are actually completely backwards. I'd need to do some actual research first, though.

[BurntPork]

He also says this, which is incredibly dubious. Whilst I couldn't really say for sure, I imagine this is actually completely backwards. I'd need to do some actual research first, though.

The RAM part is true. Wii only has 91MB of RAM total.

[Luigiv]

The RAM part is true. Wii only has 91MB of RAM total.

Yeah, that's true, I meant the speedier part though. Should have double checked the quote before posting.

[FLAguy954]

Yeah, I meant the speedier part. Should have double checked the quote.

The 3ds' FCRAM is much speedier than the Wii's RAM. It is also more speedier than the Vita's run-of-the-mill ram, it just has less of it.

[cw_sasuke]

There is nothing on 3DS looking as good as Rogue Leader or Star Fox Adventures.

[FLAguy954]

There is nothing on 3DS looking as good as Rogue Leader or Star Fox Adventures.

Kid Icarus: Uprising looks better than both of those games. And it also pushes more polys.

[Medalion]

There is nothing on 3DS looking as good as Rogue Leader or Star Fox Adventures.

Well... if those same developers were developing on 3DS, who knows

[Mihael Mello Keehl]

Kid Icarus: Uprising looks better than both of those games. And it also pushes more polys.

You are crazy dude.

[DonMigs85]

I don't think the Game Boy could actually handle full voice samples, in Pokemon Yellow's case they had to string together a series of short clips or something. I'm still trying to find the interview done with the programmer about that.

[Instro]

And also this. :lol

Purely from a technical standpoint, The Conduit is impressive for a Wii game. Of course the game still looks like ass, which is what happens when you have terrible art and environment design.

Whilst I couldn't really say for sure, I imagine the parts in bold are actually completely backwards. I'd need to do some actual research first, though.

3DS's RAM is faster iirc, and certainly far more efficient.

[MrCunningham]

3DS's RAM is faster iirc, and certainly far more efficient.

How much RAM do developers actually have to work with on the 3DS? I know the specs say that the system has 128MB's of FCRAM, but didn't Nintendo lock away 32MB's for the operating system, giving developers like 96MB's or something?

[Luigiv]

The 3ds' FCRAM is much speedier than the Wii's RAM. It is also more speedier than the Vita's run-of-the-mill ram, it just has less of it.

Yeah I'm really going to by that without legitimate evidence. Yes Mobile FCRAM is faster than regular LPDDR2 but faster than the Wii's 1T-SRAM and GDDR3? I'm going to need to see some hard numbers first, because there's noway this will be a clean cut comparison.

[EatChildren]

Kid Icarus: Uprising looks better than both of those games. And it also pushes more polys.

Prove it.

[DonMigs85]

Yeah I'm really going to by that without legitimate evidence. Yes Mobile FCRAM is faster than regular LPDDR2 but faster than the Wii's 1T-SRAM and GDDR3? I'm going to need to see some hard numbers first, because there's noway this will be a clean cut comparison.

I know the iPhone 4S gets 6.4GB/sec, I assume Vita is similar so that's already faster than any pool of memory in the GameCube/Wii other than the 3MB of 1T-SRAM embedded in the GPU.

[Luigiv]

How much RAM do developers actually have to work with on the 3DS? I know the specs say that the system has 128MB's of FCRAM, but didn't Nintendo lock away 32MB's for the operating system, giving developers like 96MB's or something?

We don't really know for sure but 96MB available, 32MB for the OS seems to be the most likely scenario all things considered and is generally accepted as fact. If it were wrong a developer probably would have leaked that fact by now.

[Instro]

How much RAM do developers actually have to work with on the 3DS? I know the specs say that the system has 128MB's of FCRAM, but didn't Nintendo lock away 32MB's for the operating system, giving developers like 96MB's or something?

I believe somewhere between 16MB and 32MB was initially locked to the OS, but portions of it have slowly been opened up for game use as the OS has been optimized over the last year. The 2nd core of the cpu was unlocked for the same reason.

[FLAguy954]

You are crazy dude.

Have you seen the massive expanses that Kid Icarus pulls off on the air sections? They absolutely floor those games in draw distance, polygon count, you name it.

Yeah I'm really going to by that without legitimate evidence. Yes Mobile FCRAM is faster than regular LPDDR2 but faster than the Wii's 1T-SRAM and GDDR3? I'm going to need to see some hard numbers first, because there's noway this will be a clean cut comparison.

I'll just post an amusing link for you: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=425879.

I'll also post some information from the ram provider's (Fujitsu) source: http://www.fujitsu.com/us/services/e.../memory/fcram/

Prove it.

The air sections alone. It is already visibly apparent

[EatChildren]

The air sections alone. It is already visibly apparent

You seem to be confusing draw distance and on screen objects as an indicator of poly count. Kid Icarus is incredible economic in it's polygonal usage. Lots and lots of characters, props and objects are very low poly because it allows them to fill the screen with objects and draw large distances.

[ColtraineGF]

I don't think the Game Boy could actually handle full voice samples, in Pokemon Yellow's case they had to string together a series of short clips or something. I'm still trying to find the interview done with the programmer about that.

http://www.gamefreak.co.jp/blog/dir_english/?p=144

[FLAguy954]

You seem to be confusing draw distance and on screen objects as an indicator of poly count. Kid Icarus is incredible economic in it's polygonal usage. Lots and lots of characters, props and objects are very low poly because it allows them to fill the screen with objects and draw large distances.

Yeah, I did confuse them there.

[ScreenSplitter]

I'm no techie, but purely on an eye level...




The lighting is better, the character model (clothing/hair) is much more detailed. In Revelations there are also sections with multiple enemies/large enemies and wide open spaces (particularly Chris in the mountains).





Not a whole lot of use comparing these, as they try to do very different things. But again, with Mario's character model, there's a surprising amount of detail. Lighting/shading again is better thanks to the 3DS's advanced shaders.



Again not sure how fair this comparison is, due to DD having to process twice as many racers/cope with splitscreen.

Actually, does anyone remember the Gamecube looking a lot prettier than it did? Maybe it was the blurry benefit of CRTs...
Now, if Nintendo wants to settle this once and for all and release an enhanced port of Wind Waker, I won't complain... that game has held up beautifully.

[Luigiv]

I'll just post an amusing link for you: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=425879. I'll also post some information from the ram provider's (Fujitsu) source: http://www.fujitsu.com/us/services/e.../memory/fcram/

I know what I've posted in the past. That doesn't really prove anything because the 3.2GB/s figure I used in that OP was a quoted from the article which itself just pulled the figure straight from a Fujitsu fact sheet and doesn't neccessarilly apply to the 3DS's implementation itself.

The thing about FCRAM is that it comes in 2 flavours, consumer and mobile. I can't really figure out how those compare to each other. Is mobile slower? It's also worth mentioning that the actual implementation into the system will also affect the numbers. You can't discuss RAM speeds divorced of clockspeed and buswidth. That's why I want some hard number comparisons discussing real figures, not this press release bullshit.

[SuomiDude]

Actually, does anyone remember the Gamecube looking a lot prettier than it did? Maybe it was the blurry benefit of CRTs...

Actually in single player mode, Double Dash!! looks pretty damn good in my opinion. It multiplayer, even just co-op, the graphics take a dive, but it still look ok and it's still a smooth run.

[iamaustrian]

even gba couldnt run snes fully. The donkey kong country games looked like shit and dissapointed the fuck outta me :(

The GBA was closer to a NeoGeo in terms of power and absolutly destroys the SNES (except for the infamous SNES sound chip).
the GBAs scaling and rotation of sprites were impressive. I remember an interview in which a developer said the GBA hardware would make a great (and cheap) 2D arcade machine

[Shaheed79]

BTW, the 3DS also has a modern vertex shader so it can manipulate polygons better than the GC/Wii. If you look at the character's cape flapping in the 2 console Fire Emblem games and compare it to the recent Fire Emblem Awakening, you'll see it's much more natural in Awakening. Though MAYBE if IS got really good with the Wii/GC hardware, they could have done the same for the cape.

Cape technology the new measuring pole for hardware power and capabilities. Field grass and particle effects are now old shoe.

[DonMigs85]

The GBA was closer to a NeoGeo in terms of power and absolutly destroys the SNES (except for the infamous SNES sound chip). the GBAs scaling and rotation of sprites were impressive. I remember an interview in which a developer said the GBA hardware would make a great (and cheap) 2D arcade machine

If only the resolution was higher than just 240x160. At least 256x192 for GBA, then 320x240 for DS would have been great.

[IrishNinja]

I would have preferred a handheld Gamecube to the 3DS.

it's not pretty.

it doesn't even look portable.

but i 'd buy one.

[Mihael Mello Keehl]

The GBA was closer to a NeoGeo in terms of power and absolutly destroys the SNES (except for the infamous SNES sound chip). the GBAs scaling and rotation of sprites were impressive. I remember an interview in which a developer said the GBA hardware would make a great (and cheap) 2D arcade machine

So is there any specific reason why the donkey kong country games looked so bad on it? That was the only thing that dissapointed me about the console was that those games were my childhood then growing up and playing them on gba I got all hyped until I seen how much better the snes versions were.

[ScreenSplitter]

it's not pretty. it doesn't even look portable. but i 'd buy one.

Plus the fact that... 3DS games are better looking.

[iamaustrian]

If only the resolution was higher than just 240x160. At least 256x192 for GBA, then 320x240 for DS would have been great.

yea, it's a pity.
but nevertheless 2D arcade titles like Double Dragon Advanced, Gekido and Final Fight One show what a great arcade hardware it would have made.

playing these on TV via the gamecube GB player is fabulous


edit:

So is there any specific reason why the donkey kong country games looked so bad on it? That was the only thing that dissapointed me about the console was that those games were my childhood then growing up and playing them on gba I got all hyped until I seen how much better the snes versions were.

well, I think the prerendered graphics from DKC suffer from the GBAs lower res and therefor look worse compared to tthe SNES

[Risk Breaker]

I would suggest the fact alone that the 3ds can run Metal Gear Solid 3 at a reasonable frame-rate proves it's capable enough machine to handle most gamecube games.

A drawing-distance downgraded version that runs at 20-15FPS is not what I would call MGS3 at a reasonable frame-rate.

[DonMigs85]

So is there any specific reason why the donkey kong country games looked so bad on it? That was the only thing that dissapointed me about the console was that those games were my childhood then growing up and playing them on gba I got all hyped until I seen how much better the snes versions were.

I think it's due to the lower resolution + they increased the contrast so it would look better on the unbacklit GBAs.

[mikeysteena]

[/QUOTE]

That's hideous

[dwu8991]

Kid icarus looks great on the 3DS. up to chapter 4. Man there's stuff that i thought was not possible on 3DS. Keeps surprising me all the time.

[EuropeOG]

but wait...

He offered to make it all one handheld unit but I wanted to wear the Gamecube on my belt like a Walkman and hold the controller with a screen. It was a little cheaper too

Kid icarus looks great on the 3DS. up to chapter 4. Man there's stuff that i thought was not possible on 3DS. Keeps surprising me all the time.

It's also seems to be one of the worst offenders when it comes to low polygons, from what I have seen anyway.

[nephilimdj]

Not a whole lot of use comparing these, as they try to do very different things. But again, with Mario's character model, there's a surprising amount of detail. Lighting/shading again is better thanks to the 3DS's advanced shaders. Again not sure how fair this comparison is, due to DD having to process twice as many racers/cope with splitscreen. Actually, does anyone remember the Gamecube looking a lot prettier than it did? Maybe it was the blurry benefit of CRTs... Now, if Nintendo wants to settle this once and for all and release an enhanced port of Wind Waker, I won't complain... that game has held up beautifully.

Your Double dash pic looks very jpg compressed, really does look alot better then that


Even baby park has more going on then alot of 7, roller coaster flying around around you, characters waving ect.

[Mr Swine]

A drawing-distance downgraded version that runs at 20-15FPS is not what I would call MGS3 at a reasonable frame-rate.

Well we can't complain when Konami thought that a straight PS2 port would work well on the 3DS when we all know that it needs a engine like Capcom to work well. Hell I believe that if Konami had the chance to use Capcoms 3DS engine that the game would look and run leaps and bounds better than it does now. But even then we all know that it's a lot easier to port gC/Wii games to the 3DS than PS2

[cvxfreak]

Someone should compare Mercenaries 3D to RE4. Mercs 3D had a lot of assets that were originally from RE4 and the gameplay is similar, so perhaps a comparison can be drawn there.

[Shion]

Could someone who actually knows about tech stuff do a simple analysis on the subject? Because, on paper, it looks like 3DS has more (and faster?) RAM, it supports shaders etc.

- So, where exactly is its weak point against GC/Wii, is it the CPU?
- What type of games would give 3DS a hard time compared to GC/Wii and what is the type of games that would benefit from the 3DS architecture?