[JGS]

The only one that can't be underpowered is Superman. Personally, I like individual movies so I never longed for a JLA. Dark Knight & Superman movies would never mix. Avengers appears to be an exception. I have to wait to see it until later this week unfortunately.

[Khezu]

Superman, batman, Wonder Woman(with pants), Cyborg(always call him vic though), and Martian Manhunter.

Don't use GL or flash, GL had a shit movie and his powers would be a huge budget drain, flash because super speed would never work in live action, it always looks stupid. It kinda worked in avengers, but it only lasted for like a second so you didn't realize how shitty the effect was.

[HK-47]

This. Not sure I understand complaining about overpowered characters either, a common plot point across the DCAU was how the heroes could relate to the average person while floating in their giant super space station with a mega death laser pointed straight at Earth. A good writer could make it work. A good writer could also make them "relateable". The characters aren't the problem, the problem DC has had the past decade is the writing and portrayal of these characters. The Hulk had two mediocre movies and now suddenly he's back at the forefront. The Batman franchise was basically on life support on the big screen until Nolan stepped in.

I think the long form medium of tv animation is better suited to take these characters and make them human than the short medium of film can. It requires a lot of set up.

[akira28]

Why do people hate the (Nolan) Batman movies for having themes beyond "lol this is cool because he's Batman"?

Heath Ledger's psychotic anarchist terrorist was the first time they got the Joker's version of chaotic mindfuckery mayhem correct. He wasn't just some supercriminal with a nefarious plot, he was insane and malignantly so. His plans were like rotten wood, infested with worms of crazy, and he did all of it just to fuck with the Batman.

Now if they could do something like that for the Batman character himself, to get to the nut of the character, instead of just dark broody billionaire with cool toys, martial arts training, and a gravelly voice (which is basically what they reduced him to), and have matching stories with his stable of characters and potential plots, then that movie would truly be something. Instead, it's a good movie for the popcorn. The movies are good, but they could be great. And they aren't at all. They're just a lot better than when someone tried to be campy and gave Batman nipples.

I don't dislike him for doing 'more', as I think you're saying. I dislike him for not doing more than he did with the character. All the lost love hand wringing, and the whole 'masked vigilante' question. Batman doesn't give a crap if he's on the wrong side of the law. He's a haunted man, a guilt driven, obsessed animal. Not some rich kid who turned his gap year into a crimefighting career.

[remnant]

He's right. DC's most recognizable characters are all way too overpowered.

Way to miss the fucking point. It has nothing to do with power.

[WillyFive]

The problem wasn't that the GL was unbelievable it's that the movie was written like shit.

This goes for any DC superhero.

Other than Batman, DC has completely dropped the ball on their cinematic universe. They couldn't make the sequel to Superman Returns, their Wonder Woman TV show didn't launch, Green Lantern was terrible, and without those things a Justice League movie is out of the question. To add to that, Nolan's Batman universe might end with TDKR, making it closed of from the rest of the series.

Marvel beat them to the punch, and DC has no one to blame but themselves.

[Ezduo]

How do you make GL and The Flash believable, but more importantly badass instead of ridiculous? The person who figures out how to do that but at the same time not nerf the characters to unrecognizability will become a rich dude.

This is how you do the Flash.

[BertramCooper]

There is Whedon hate? People thought he was unproven?

In my eyes, he was.

Considering he's been writing like a college undergrad for two decades, it's nice to see him grow up just a little bit.

[HK-47]

Heath Ledger's psychotic anarchist terrorist was the first time they got the Joker's version of chaotic mindfuckery mayhem correct. He wasn't just some supercriminal with a nefarious plot, he was insane and malignantly so. His plans were like rotten wood, infested with worms of crazy, and he did all of it just to fuck with the Batman. Now if they could do something like that for the Batman character himself, to get to the nut of the character, instead of just dark broody billionaire with cool toys, martial arts training, and a gravelly voice (which is basically what they reduced him to), and have matching stories with his stable of characters and potential plots, then that movie would truly be something. Instead, it's a good movie for the popcorn. The movies are good, but they could be great. And they aren't at all. They're just a lot better than when someone tried to be campy and gave Batman nipples. I don't dislike him for doing 'more', as I think you're saying. I dislike him for not doing more than he did with the character. All the lost love hand wringing, and the whole 'masked vigilante' question. Batman doesn't give a crap if he's on the wrong side of the law. He's a haunted man, a guilt driven, obsessed animal. Not some rich kid who turned his gap year into a crimefighting career.

They shouldnt have used up Two Face. It would have been a perfect foil to the batman/bruce wayne dual identity.

[rollingstart]

I think it would be hilarious if they treated the Justice League as gods in a modern age; completely detached from ordinary life, a shaky relationship with the people they're trying to protect, opposed by the likes of Waller and Luthor. It's a stupid idea, but a Justice League movie just got boxed in. It'll be the John Carter to Avenger's Avatar if they go with New Frontier as a jumping off point.

Sad thing is Green Lantern had some connection to a Justice League movie with Waller, but that movie was a catastrophe. DC is probably better off with a stand alone Justice League.

[Nesotenso]

This goes for any DC superhero. Other than Batman, DC has completely dropped the ball on their cinematic universe. They couldn't make the sequel to Superman Returns, their Wonder Woman TV show didn't launch, Green Lantern was terrible, and without those things a Justice League movie is out of the question. To add to that, Nolan's Batman universe might end with TDKR, making it closed of from the rest of the series. Marvel beat them to the punch, and DC has no one to blame but themselves.

WB should just concentrate on Man of Steel, the Bat reboot and WW. JL right now should be an afterthought.

[Scullibundo]

Heath Ledger's psychotic anarchist terrorist was the first time they got the Joker's version of chaotic mindfuckery mayhem correct. He wasn't just some supercriminal with a nefarious plot, he was insane and malignantly so. His plans were like rotten wood, infested with worms of crazy, and he did all of it just to fuck with the Batman. Now if they could do something like that for the Batman character himself, to get to the nut of the character, instead of just dark broody billionaire with cool toys, martial arts training, and a gravelly voice (which is basically what they reduced him to), and have matching stories with his stable of characters and potential plots, then that movie would truly be something. Instead, it's a good movie for the popcorn. The movies are good, but they could be great. And they aren't at all. They're just a lot better than when someone tried to be campy and gave Batman nipples. I don't dislike him for doing 'more', as I think you're saying. I dislike him for not doing more than he did with the character. All the lost love hand wringing, and the whole 'masked vigilante' question. Batman doesn't give a crap if he's on the wrong side of the law. He's a haunted man, a guilt driven, obsessed animal. Not some rich kid who turned his gap year into a crimefighting career.

That is what I actually want most out of this movie. I want Nolan to give Bale a scene to really fucking own and go ballistic on screen. This kind of shit has to do a number on Bruce psychologically speaking.

I would actually love to see a scene where Bruce is forced to take somebody down - only he's acting as if he's still got the costume on. He becomes Batman through and through and actually loses himself to the persona.

[Solo]

Heath Ledger's psychotic anarchist terrorist was the first time they got the Joker's version of chaotic mindfuckery mayhem correct. He wasn't just some supercriminal with a nefarious plot, he was insane and malignantly so. His plans were like rotten wood, infested with worms of crazy, and he did all of it just to fuck with the Batman. .

Uh he was exactly that. He can spout on about chaos all he wants, but his schemes were 100% the work of a criminal genius and not a mad dog.

Joker in TDK is completely full of shit.

[Tookay]

Uh he was exactly that. He can spout on about chaos all he wants, but his schemes were 100% the work of a criminal genius and not a mad dog. Joker in TDK is completely full of shit.

Yeah, it's amazing how many people miss the point of those scenes. Joker was a schemer, just like everybody else. He was lying to Dent, selling his myth, as he had throughout the film.

[bryanee]

Just go the Timm and Dini way. Whilst the characters are powerful they dont seem to be as powerful as in the comics, Superman especially. The team is constantly challenged in various ways from the physical and mental.

Hell maybe they could get Timm involved in some way to help bring the world together. Hes been doing it in the animated world for so long why not in live action?

[HP_Wuvcraft]

I think the long form medium of tv animation is better suited to take these characters and make them human than the short medium of film can. It requires a lot of set up.

This, exactly.

Plus, it's animated. Your suspension of disbelief is already prepped.

Considering he's been writing like a college undergrad for two decades, it's nice to see him grow up just a little bit.

This, as well.

Whedon's works have always gradually matured, show after show. Buffy was the worst (well, it was a high school show written for high schoolers), Angel was only marginally better, Firefly was when he was learning how to be an "adult" writer, Dollhouse was a great concept flawed by the fact that Whedon thought he could write two years of pre-seasons, and Cabin was... fantastic.

I really am interested in seeing what his new show on FX is, if it is still alive.

[Ezduo]

Yeah, it's amazing how many people miss the point of those scenes. Joker was a schemer, just like everybody else. He was lying to Dent, selling his myth, as he had throughout the film.

What exactly was his scheme?

[Solo]

Yeah, it's amazing how many people miss the point of those scenes. Joker was a schemer, just like everybody else. He was lying to Dent, selling his myth, as he had throughout the film.

Not only is he a schemer, he's THE schemer. His actions throughout the film completely betray the mantra he promotes.

[HK-47]

Uh he was exactly that. He can spout on about chaos all he wants, but his schemes were 100% the work of a criminal genius and not a mad dog. Joker in TDK is completely full of shit.

Joker is always full of shit. Thats what is so good.

[Solo]

Joker is always full of shit. Thats what is so good.

Definitely. Not saying its a bad thing. Just saying that he was as far away from being "an agent of chaos" in TDK as he could possibly be.

[akira28]

WB should just concentrate on Man of Steel, the Bat reboot and WW. JL right now should be an afterthought.

Right. Forget trying to keep up with Disney. Concentrate on making a really really kick ass Wonder Woman movie. (She'll have to be tall. Athletic. And very pretty. With acting skills. So obviously an unknown, since that doesn't currently exist within Hollywood.) Make sure Supermang doesn't suck(ha), then maybe well talk, once they can prove they can refrain from fucking up the principals.

[shadyspace]

Nobody can even make a kickass Wonder Woman comic.

[Tookay]

What exactly was his scheme?

Too many to count.

-Break Batman at first by killing others and pressure him to reveal his identity out of guilt.
-Break Batman later by making him kill and compromise his morals.
-Prove to Batman that everyone has the potential to be as cruel and depraved as he is (ie the ferry, which would have required a significant amount of planning to get explosives on the boat and the fact that the only reason why people got on boats in the first place was because he warned them not to get of Gotham through the tunnels and bridges).
-Turn Harvey Dent by taking advantage of his injury and grief.
-Use the mob to effectuate his own schemes.
-Killing Commissioner Leob, the judge, and attempt on the mayor to destabilize Gotham.

You don't think any of these involved scheming and planning? The guy was a mastermind. He's no agent of chaos, striking randomly and arbitrarily. That's just the lie he sells, like the one he tells about his scars.

[HP_Wuvcraft]

Joker is always full of shit. Thats what is so good.

I always liked that about TAS' Joker.

He wore clown makeup and laughed and shit and was irreverent with his humor, and because of all that on top of its an animated show, you honestly overlook that he's just another career criminal.

[Crewnh]

I'm not a Super Fanboy, I couldn't begin to tell you. I was referencing a very specific instance where DC shot down the idea that Marvel was beating them due to characterization, and instead interpreted it to mean that they needed to go dark. But, you know, if you want to completely ignore the point I was trying to make in favor of making me sound like a 40-year old manchild that can't handle "his company" being critiqued, that's fine, too.

Well when you reference some interview and one eight year old story, generalizing all of the writers as to going with some faux dark iniative while making the outlandish claim that Whedon made the X-Men less ridiculous (break world, bringing cassandra nova back, turning Xavier into an evil piece of garbage with the danger room slavery, magic bullet, etc) , I'm not sure what to think.

[shadyspace]

Return of the Joker is better than either of Nolan's Bat movies.

[Solo]

I always liked that about TAS' Joker. He wore clown makeup and laughed and shit and was irreverent with his humor, and because of all that on top of its an animated show, you honestly overlook that he's just another career criminal.

That's what I always loved most about Joker - that he has so much charm, charisma and twisted humor that you forget, even if for just a moment, that he is a sadistic, murderous lunatic.

[TheOGB]

I had this conversation with my girlfriend after watching the Avengers yesterday (about if DC could pull off a Justice League movie, general Marvel/DC comparisons) and came away with the same conclusion.

And really, the only DC character I give a shit about at this point is Batman.

[Devolution]

Definitely. Not saying its a bad thing. Just saying that he was as far away from being "an agent of chaos" in TDK as he could possibly be.

Because of his agenda but he liked to think himself the element of chaos, that is randomly fucked up events that happen to people. Problem obviously being as someone doing it, it's not in fact random.

[WanderingWind]

I dunno. People said Avengers wasn't going to work, either.

[HP_Wuvcraft]

generalizing all of the writers as to going with some faux dark iniative

Didn't say that.

Did I also read about how people got sick drawing the rape scene? Yes.

while making the outlandish claim that Whedon made the X-Men less ridiculous (break world, bringing cassandra nova back, turning Xavier into an evil piece of garbage with the danger room slavery, magic bullet, etc)

Didn't say that either.

Whedon humanized the X-Men. He also made the power status among superhero groups clear, as well as make sense. And, um, people forgetting their morals... is kind of a human thing and nowhere near a ridiculous comic book idea.

It would be great if you didn't generalize what I wrote.

Too many to count. -Break Batman at first by killing others and pressure him to reveal his identity out of guilt. -Break Batman later by making him kill and compromise his morals. -Prove to Batman that everyone has the potential to be as cruel and depraved as he is (ie the ferry, which would have required a significant amount of planning to get explosives on the boat and the fact that the only reason why people got on boats in the first place was because he warned them not to get of Gotham through the tunnels and bridges). -Turn Harvey Dent by taking advantage of his injury and grief. -Use the mob to effectuate his own schemes. -Killing Commissioner Leob, the judge, and attempt on the mayor to destabilize Gotham. You don't think any of these involved scheming and planning? The guy was a mastermind. He's no agent of chaos, striking randomly and arbitrarily. That's just the lie he sells, like the one he tells about his scars.

He also goes through with the murder of Lao, which is a large, large part of what he is doing the entire movie.

If he were an Agent of Chaos, he wouldn't care about being hired to get Lao.

[Wickerbasket]

Again, if you craft a story that makes sense, then it won't be a problem. The issue is always trying to give Batman something to do. Because if you can take on Superman.. Batman would be no issue.

I've always felt that it was hard to imagine Batman in the same universe as the other DC heroes and villians.

Power wise, he's like a DC character stuck in the Marvel universe. Nolan's movies just drive the point home further, it's hard to imagine DC's other heroes entering that city.

[Vyer]

Eh, most superheroes are modeled after each other. Thor is practically Superman, CA and Iron Man even more 'superhuman' than Bats, etc...

Honestly, after watching Avengers, DC's biggest problem is they don't have a Hulk character. He translated to the movie really well.

[WanderingWind]

I've always felt that it was hard to imagine Batman in the same universe as the other DC heroes and villians. Power wise, he's like a DC character stuck in the Marvel universe. Nolan's movies just drive the point home further, it's hard to imagine DC's other heroes entering that city.

They make it work in the comics because of Prep Time and Detective Skills but they have almost completely ignored those aspects of him in the movies. So, yeah, I totally agree with you.

And as an aside, that moment being discussed with Dibny and Dr Light was probably the worst moment in DC history. So soulless, crass, unnecessary, cynical and just flat out stupid. I hate that moment more than anything I've ever read in comics. It kept me away from DC until Blackest Night.

[Vulcano's assistant]

Don't use GL or flash, GL had a shit movie and his powers would be a huge budget drain, flash because super speed would never work in live action, it always looks stupid. It kinda worked in avengers, but it only lasted for like a second so you didn't realize how shitty the effect was.

Is there any movie (or cartoon, etc) that has ever made a good portrayal of super speed. I mean, with relativistic effects like these?


http://www.spacetimetravel.org/inhalt.html

[Khezu]

Nobody can even make a kickass Wonder Woman comic.

I have heard great things about the Nu52 wonder woman comic.

Though some are a bit annoyed by the new origin, and by All the rape and child slavery

[Crewnh]

Didn't say that. Did I also read about how people got sick drawing the rape scene? Yes.

DC has been trying their fucking hardest to make their characters human and relatable That, in DC language, means rape.

I don't see how one story colours DC forever but hey, whatever. Morales probably did get sick, Identity Crisis was pretty terrible all around.

Whedon humanized the X-Men. He also made the power status among superhero groups clear, as well as make sense.

I don't doubt if this was one's first X-Book, Whedon might have been responsible for that.

[Penguin]

I have heard great things about the Nu52 wonder woman comic. Though some are a bit annoyed by the new origin, and by All the rape and child slavery

Huge fan of the story and the art

Would love to see the style adapted into a DTV

[G-Fex]

The dissapointing piece of garbage that was Green Lantern has broken my heart so much I can't really be hyped for another comic book movie much less a DC movie.

[HP_Wuvcraft]

I don't doubt if this was one's first X-Book, Whedon might have been responsible for that.

It's not, but whatever.

DC will never work with Whedon, since Disney basically owns him now.

[Ezalc]

I don't get it, the Avengers movie wasn't even that good.

[Dany M]

Do you go the avengers route and make a lot of shitty prequel movies to then make an "good" movie or do you go the x-men route and not tell the origin story?

[MechDX]

I don't get it, the Avengers movie wasn't even that good.

uummm....yeah

[Router]

This goes for any DC superhero. Other than Batman, DC has completely dropped the ball on their cinematic universe. They couldn't make the sequel to Superman Returns, their Wonder Woman TV show didn't launch, Green Lantern was terrible, and without those things a Justice League movie is out of the question. To add to that, Nolan's Batman universe might end with TDKR, making it closed of from the rest of the series. Marvel beat them to the punch, and DC has no one to blame but themselves.

It's a positive thing that Nolan's Batman series is ending. Because as long as that Batman is going then there is basically no chance of setting up a universe where all these characters can exist.

The thing with marvel is they got a team into position and just started working away at a goal.

With DC it's seems to be more like.. Oh someone wants to make a lobo movie? Ok! There is seemingly no goal try are working to no structure to any of their film decisions. They totally lucked out with Nolan.

[HP_Wuvcraft]

It's a positive thing that Nolan's Batman series is ending.

I really want to see what they do with Batman Reboot #2.

[Ezalc]

uummm....yeah

Biggest flaw with the movie are the antagonists, seriously overblown and just downright pathetic.

[Chichikov]

Still waiting on a live action The Dark Knight Returns. Directed by Paul Verhoeven.

If he gives Batman the Starship Troopers treatment it would indeed be the greatest thing in the history of everything.
But that would never ever happen.

[Dany M]

I really want to see what they do with Batman Reboot #2.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1877830/

[Banana Kid]

Dude currently working for Marvel talks some shit about DC.

Film at 11.

[MechDX]

Biggest flaw with the movie are the antagonists, seriously overblown and just downright pathetic.

The movie is a popcorn eating, face melting, kick you in the balls and scream for more summer action movie not On Golden Pond.

It doesnt mean it wasnt good. And Whedon's right, Marvel is just better than DC.