[coldvein]

Because it is proven to be detrimental?

to what? the greater good?

[Mumei]

to what? the greater good?

It is detrimental to many individuals (both male and female are affected in negative ways by what she's talking about), but in aggregate, yes, it is also detrimental to the greater good.

[coldvein]

It is detrimental to many individuals (both male and female are affected in negative ways by what she's talking about), but in aggregate, yes, it is also detrimental to the greater good.

i see.

[Vic]

His character.

[The Lamp]

secondary sex traits and male genitalia.

[Professor Beef]

I'm a digiman.

[squidyj]

And this is why I've never liked the phrase. Also because every time someone wants me to be a man or grow up their concept of being an adult male is fucking horrifying.

[Lionheart1337]

Having balls and an attraction to the opposite sex.

Bullshit ban #123235478535

[buy teh haloz]

No? Well, yes, but no more so than any other definition. If you are stereotypical western male, in order to 'BE A MAN', then you move to... India say, you will no longer be a man by the local standard (well, you might, but it is not a given). So what definition is more important than your internal one?

I think if you define something internally, it doesn't really hold much meaning. You need to base it off something, even if in this case it's a somewhat nebulous concept.

[akira28]

coldvein: if someone's values system hurts others, then it's not a good one. People should respect the values of others, when they're not harmful. If part of that value system means harming someone either physically or emotionally, or even socially, then those values don't really deserve respect.

[squidyj]

I think if you define something internally, it doesn't really hold much meaning. You need to base it off something, even if in this case it's a somewhat nebulous concept.

Yeah, you need to internalize external pressures in order to have value and meaning in your life. Otherwise you would be all like "I'm pretty okay" when you were not, in fact, pretty okay.

[Devolution]

Yeah, you need to internalize external pressures in order to have value and meaning in your life.

That sounds like something someone who isn't a real man would say.

[squidyj]

That sounds like something someone who isn't a real man would say.

I plead the fifth. Actually, I'm Canadian, can I even do that?

[Dead Man]

I think if you define something internally, it doesn't really hold much meaning. You need to base it off something, even if in this case it's a somewhat nebulous concept.

Yeah, you are basing it off how you feel. It's not basing it off nothing. What other definition is more meaningful? They are all cultural and so what works in one place may not work in another. That is more meaningful? Or are you only a man if you conform to societal expectations?

[Devolution]

I plead the fifth. Actually, I'm Canadian, can I even do that?

Canadian?

Not a real man confirmed.

[coldvein]

coldvein: if someone's values system hurts others, then it's not a good one. People should respect the values of others, when they're not harmful. If part of that value system means harming someone either physically or emotionally, or even socially, then those values don't really deserve respect.

i understand what you're saying. thank you for putting it into one concise and easy to read post, i appreciate that. i don't necessarily think you're right, but i appreciate it anyway.

[[Clark Gable]]

As if you would catch me in this villainous plan of yours to get me banned from GAF for being too opinionated. Not today sir, not today. So I will take my leave, and only say, being a man is eating honey nut cheerios with orange juice because you forgot to buy milk the previous day.

[Professor Beef]

Canadian? Not a real man confirmed.

It takes a real man to admit that they enjoy bagged milk. I mean...you pretty much HAVE to be.

As if you would catch me in this villainous plan of yours, too get me banned from GAF for being too opinionated. Not today sir, not today. So I will take my leave, and only say, being a man is eating honey nut cheerios with orange juice because you forgot to buy milk the previous day.

Disgusting!

[coldvein]

As if you would catch me in this villainous plan of yours, too get me banned from GAF for being too opinionated. Not today sir, not today. So I will take my leave, and only say, being a man is eating honey nut cheerios with orange juice because you forgot to buy milk the previous day.

smart fella here.

[Satch]

As if you would catch me in this villainous plan of yours, too get me banned from GAF for being too opinionated. Not today sir, not today. So I will take my leave, and only say, being a man is eating honey nut cheerios with orange juice because you forgot to buy milk the previous day.

:lol w/e

i've eaten frosted flakes with water

get at me

[Emitan]

It takes a real man to admit that they enjoy bagged milk. I mean...you pretty much HAVE to be.

Bagged milk? Sounds like boobs to me.

[Devolution]

:lol w/e i've eaten frosted flakes with water get at me

I've eaten that stuff without any sort of liquid to keep it from scratchin' up your mouth.

[Professor Beef]

Bagged milk? Sounds like boobs to me.

No, those are bags of sand.

[Emitan]

No, those are bags of sand.

What kind of women have you been seeing that lactate sand?!

[akira28]

i understand what you're saying. thank you for putting it into one concise and easy to read post, i appreciate that. i don't necessarily think you're right, but i appreciate it anyway.

Well, I'm willing to read your counter response. I can be wrong. Happens all the time. When do values that hurt other deserve respect?

Honey Smacks with water. And I liked it because I was young and didn't know any better.

[xbhaskarx]

Sure, that and a pair of testicles.

[squidyj]

Canadian? Not a real man confirmed.

You listen to me, I'm a lumberjack and I'm okay. I drink bagged milk on Canada Day*

*The preceding statements may or may not be true


In all seriousness though it's kind of funny because you try to define being Canadian and it doesn't really have much of a definition either. The closest you'll ever get to a consensus is "not American" "not a woman" beyond that it's all chaos and anarchy, definitely not American though.

[Professor Beef]

What kind of women have you been seeing that lactate sand?!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...IRHhPXMo#t=60s

[buy teh haloz]

Yeah, you are basing it off how you feel. It's not basing it off nothing. What other definition is more meaningful? They are all cultural and so what works in one place may not work in another. That is more meaningful? Or are you only a man if you conform to societal expectations?

Well, sort of. I think words are defined more by their common usage more than anything.

[dark_chris]

I remember discussing this with friends. One of them said, "You become a man when you settle down and have kids." and we all looked at each other and said to her, "What about people who just don't like the notion of getting married?" and she said, "Then they will always be kids who never grew up." We all promptly decided to kick her off the group after she mentioned more stupidity. lol.

For me, you become a man when you can rationally think well and know what the hell you can do for yourself and be completely independent

[KO Traveling Hobo]

Well, I'm willing to read your counter response. I can be wrong. Happens all the time. When do values that hurt other deserve respect? Honey Smacks with water. And I liked it because I was young and didn't know any better.

You have the right idea and this is probably just a matter of semantics or something silly like that, but it's impossible to have a values system that doesn't hurt others.

For me, you become a man when you can rationally think well and know what the hell you can do for yourself and be completely independent

While I'm at it: does this mean that girls who think rationally and can take care of themselves become men?

[GamerSoul]

:lol w/e i've eaten frosted flakes with water get at me

Man, that's a waste of frosted flakes.

[Poyunch]

A man is an adult male.

I try not to think too hard about these things.

[coldvein]

When do values that hurt other deserve respect?

that is a hugely loaded question that i don't have a specific answer to, only more questions. i'm not going to say that you're right or wrong, i dont really know.

value systems clash. i guess we're mostly talking about this relatively new (to most people) one where people are entitled to decide what sex they really are. i don't really care what people think they are. but there are plenty of people in the world who think that such a value system is harmful and destructive and is bringing down society, and is not a value system that helps the greater good. they feel slighted, they feel like the walls are caving in around them and that it's all going to go to shit because this new value system is being allowed to exist.

and plenty of people who ascribe to this new value system feel that these opposing people and their view points are shitty and shouldnt exist either.

seems like a tossup to me. either way somebody feels hurt or wronged. somebody feels like somebody has an inferior, unenlightened system of beliefs.

[BlueSteel]

My favorite quote regarding masculinity:

"Real masculinity is the confidence to not have to prove your manhood." - Clint Eastwood

[Satch]

Man, that's a waste of frosted flakes.

it was aight

[JokerOfSpades]

Let's get down to business - to defeat the Huns Did they send me daughters when I asked for sons? You're the saddest bunch I've ever met But you can bet before we're through Mister, I'll make a man out of you Tranquil as a forest But on fire within Once you find your center You are sure to win You're a spineless, pale pathetic lot And you haven't got a clue Somehow I'll make a man out of you I'm never gonna catch my breath Say goodbye to those who knew me Boy, was I a fool in school for cutting gym This guy's got 'em scared to death Hope he doesn't see right through me Now I really wish that I knew how to swim (Chorus:) Be a man We must be swift as the coursing river Be a man With all the force of a great typhoon Be a man With all the strength of a raging fire Mysterious as the dark side of the moon Time is racing toward us till the Huns arrive Heed my every order and you might survive You're unsuited for the rage of war So pack up, go home you're through How could I make a man out of you?

I love you.

[Emitan]

and plenty of people who ascribe to this new value system feel that these opposing people and their view points are shitty and shouldnt exist either.

If one type of thinking enourages close minded bigotry, why should it exist?

Just because someone has an opinion, it doesn't mean it's valid.

[JokerOfSpades]

It's not exactly on point, but it's sort of related, I love this quote by C. S. Lewis and I've used it on GAF before too: That's part of what bothers me about this whole topic. I am a man, and I don't feel the need to pass some sort of bizarre test to prove it.

That's one of my favorite quotes. :)

[coldvein]

Well if one type of thinking enourages close minded bigotry, why should it exist?

they're questioning your right to exist and you're questioning theirs. right? you're not special because you have some faith that your values are right and theirs aren't.

[Dead Man]

Well, sort of. I think words are defined more by their common usage more than anything.

Words can be defined by their common usage, yes. And if that is what you wish to use, so be it. 'A man is anything the dominant culture of an area deems it to be'. Done. Bit useless and deindividualising though, don't you think?

[TheKaeptain]

:lol w/e i've eaten frosted flakes with water get at me

I would but I don't believe I am man enough for you yet.

[The Technomancer]

they're questioning your right to exist and you're questioning theirs. right? you're not special because you have some faith that your values are right and theirs aren't.

All other things being equal its usually accepted that cultural values that promote egalitarianism and allow for individuals to behave as they wish without harming others are "better" then those that arbitrarily restrict opportunities and behavior.

[AShep]

Why are people in this thread equating clearly defined gender roles with bigotry and sexism as though those things cannot be separated from one another?

I don't understand why today's younger generations get so defensive and uppity about these arbitrary labels. In my experience it's out of fear that one doesn't being to the stereotypical definition of their gender as I've yet to come across a 'girly girl' or 'man's man' who had an issue being categorised as such.

These terms are essentially shorthand. If I refer to someone as being particularly manly I'll do so in a context that leaves little room for interpretation.

If someone uses these labels as a way to belittle or exclude another person, It's because they're an asshole, not because stereotypical gender roles exist.

[coldvein]

All other things being equal its usually accepted that cultural values that promote egalitarianism and allow for individuals to behave as they wish without harming others are "better" then those that arbitrarily restrict opportunities and behavior.

yeah?

[Tesseract]

experience, a big brain, and a good heart.

[The Technomancer]

yeah?

If you have an argument to the contrary I genuinely would like to hear it. But I've never heard one before. The specific part you have to argue against is the idea that there are reasons other then the harm caused to others for restricting a person's behavior.

[Emperor Bohe]

since my avatar is from the first Tekken as well, this gif makes me happy.

[Endo Punk]

It's a moving target, always out of reach.

[Angry Puppy]

A man is defined by having gorgeous hair