[EatChildren]

I see only one "blanket dismissal" here, my friend, and it's not my post.

Reading through this thread, it seems more people were attracted to the themes, atmosphere and narrative style of both Max Payne games, versus, err, as you say, "elevating the story and characterizations from MP1 and MP2 to some unreachable olymp of videogame writing" (not entirely sure where you derived such hyperbole from). You then follow it up with a spiel about how the stories aren't actually very good at all, standards are higher, Rockstar is great, etc.

Not once did you address the concerns of thematic and style changes, which appears to me to be the major point of wariness from those not entirely on board the hype train.

So, I guess I'm asking, who are you talking to and what point are you trying to make? That Max Payne 3 will have a great AAA production and a good narrative? I don't think many people are doubting that.

[Sn4ke_911]

FUCK! I missed it. Hahaha.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost...postcount=1341

[angrybus]

Are there any reports about the PS3 version? I've got 360 ordered and I'm not incredibly fussed about multiple disks, but it would still be good to know..

[StevePharma]

Dunno if this was truly confirmed by Rockstar but dismemberment is in.

[JumpingTheGun]

Dunno if this was truly confirmed by Rockstar but dismemberment is in.

Yeah i figured as much after seeing that video of people getting squashed into pink mist and pieces by the bus in that auto shop.

edit: man, someone post a .gif of that please!

[Micerider]

Definetely counting on PC GAF to post performance reviews upon release.

I'm getting really stressed about it being crippled by either of my PC's (laptop is I7 but with a geforce 445m, -honest for most current games, but suffering on heavy things like Witcher 2- or My Desktop OCed E8400 with GTX 460 giga -Decent perf on games with not too harsh CPU requirement-).

I'm not willing to go the console route, but knowing Rock* past with PC versions....

[EatChildren]

Dunno if this was truly confirmed by Rockstar but dismemberment is in.

Glorious shotgun deaths await.

[Munin]

Reading through this thread, it seems more people were attracted to the themes, atmosphere and narrative style of both Max Payne games, versus, err, as you say, "elevating the story and characterizations from MP1 and MP2 to some unreachable olymp of videogame writing" (not entirely sure where you derived such hyperbole from). You then follow it up with a spiel about how the stories aren't actually very good at all, standards are higher, Rockstar is great, etc. Not once did you address the concerns of thematic and style changes, which appears to me to be the major point of wariness from those not entirely on board the hype train. So, I guess I'm asking, who are you talking to and what point are you trying to make? That Max Payne 3 will have a great AAA production and a good narrative? I don't think many people are doubting that.

It's comments like yours that make me think this way:

And Lake's distinct writing and narrative style along with Remedy's incredible game world craftsmanship is prevalent throughout, just like it was with Max Payne. Or, to put it simply, I don't have faith Rockstar can touch Lake and Remedy's vision of the Max Payne universe, because they've done nothing to convince me otherwise. Including every trailer released so far for Max Payne 3.

Lake and Remedy's "vision" consisted of a cartoon universe with exaggerated character archetypes appropriated from a wild variety of TV and movie tropes. As a "vision" it's about as sophisticated as your average Call of Duty plot, except people seem to think being knee-deep in ironic self-reference somehow automatically makes stuff extremely clever.

I'd like to ask you what kind of stylistic changes or redevelopment of the universe you would consider acceptable then? I am genuinely curious. Nothing that detractors like you have mentioned so far went beyond "I really just want a prettier but otherwise thematically identical version of the stuff I've played before".

[Pranay_]

Would love to kick some ign people ass in the mp.

Gaf should have a fued with ign

[rvy]

Gaf should have a fued with ign

Don't we already?

[iNvid02]

Definetely counting on PC GAF to post performance reviews upon release. I'm getting really stressed about it being crippled by either of my PC's (laptop is I7 but with a geforce 445m, -honest for most current games, but suffering on heavy things like Witcher 2- or My Desktop OCed E8400 with GTX 460 giga -Decent perf on games with not too harsh CPU requirement-). I'm not willing to go the console route, but knowing Rock* past with PC versions....

from what they've said its ticked pretty much all the right boxes, and they recently confirmed it does not do gfwl which is even better

the optimization for up to 16gb ram could be marketing bs though, who knows

[JumpingTheGun]

Don't we already?

lol haha. hell yes I'm totally down for starting a major gangwar with them.

Is anyone in NeoGang planning to join in on the R* inaugural online event next Friday & Saturday?

[EatChildren]

I'd like to ask you what kind of stylistic changes or redevelopment of the universe you would consider acceptable then? I am genuinely curious. Nothing that detractors like you have mentioned so far went beyond "I really just want a prettier but otherwise thematically identical version of the stuff I've played before".

I've been openly positive of Rockstar's changes and advancements of Max, the character. Unlike some others, I have no problem with bald, dishevelled, alcoholic Max trying to shoot his way out of the gutter. I've always felt that Max Payne + Max Payne 2 is, thematically, a pretty nicely contained story and character arc that doesn't need explicit continuation. Rockstar has stated this is a new chapter for Max and I'm okay with that.

But your criticisms of the 'vision' are exactly what I liked about it. Max's cartoon, cliche cut-out universe is what attracted me in the first place (aside from the shoot outs), and given that prior to MP3 there are only two Max Payne games, and both adopt this style, it is understandably the style I associate with the series. You're again making absurd assumptions with stuff like "nee-deep in ironic self-reference somehow automatically makes stuff extremely clever". You're putting my enjoyment and appreciation of Remedy's vision on imaginary pedestal that I never constructed.

From the videos I've seen, Max Payne 3 is a dramatic tonal and presentation shift, distancing the series from its origins of cheese and silliness. I like the cheese. I like the silliness. I like Lake's often eye rolling convoluted metaphors and dumb, cliché dialogue.

Your argument boils down to basically the exact opposite of mine. You don't like or care for Remedy's vision. You see nothing of value there, and don't give a shit that Rockstar is changing that. I, on the other hand, liked it, and strongly identify the series with it. Given Rockstar is changing that, this is the root of my concerns.

[Sn4ke_911]

Yeah i figured as much after seeing that video of people getting squashed into pink mist and pieces by the bus in that auto shop. edit: man, someone post a .gif of that please!

[JumpingTheGun]

Pink Mist.

[Munin]

I've been openly positive of Rockstar's changes and advancements of Max, the character. Unlike some others, I have no problem with bald, dishevelled, alcoholic Max trying to shoot his way out of the gutter. I've always felt that Max Payne + Max Payne 2 is, thematically, a pretty nicely contained story and character arc that doesn't need explicit continuation. Rockstar has stated this is a new chapter for Max and I'm okay with that. But your criticisms of the 'vision' are exactly what I liked about it. Max's cartoon, cliche cut-out universe is what attracted me in the first place (aside from the shoot outs), and given that prior to MP3 there are only two Max Payne games, and both adopt this style, it is understandably the style I associate with the series. You're again making absurd assumptions with stuff like "nee-deep in ironic self-reference somehow automatically makes stuff extremely clever". You're putting my enjoyment and appreciation of Remedy's vision on imaginary pedestal that I never constructed. From the videos I've seen, Max Payne 3 is a dramatic tonal and presentation shift, distancing the series from its origins of cheese and silliness. I like the cheese. I like the silliness. I like Lake's often eye rolling convoluted metaphors and dumb, cliché dialogue. Your argument boils down to basically the exact opposite of mine. You don't like or care for Remedy's vision. You see nothing of value there, and don't give a shit that Rockstar is changing that. I, on the other hand, liked it, and strongly identify the series with it. Given Rockstar is changing that, this is the root of my concerns.

Fair enough, liking the cheese for what it is is fine of course. Personally, after 2 games like that I am happy to see a different take on the whole thing.

In any case I hope we'll all be able to agree that the gameplay will be outstanding, so far it looks like that at least.

[Vire]

I've been openly positive of Rockstar's changes and advancements of Max, the character. Unlike some others, I have no problem with bald, dishevelled, alcoholic Max trying to shoot his way out of the gutter. I've always felt that Max Payne + Max Payne 2 is, thematically, a pretty nicely contained story and character arc that doesn't need explicit continuation. Rockstar has stated this is a new chapter for Max and I'm okay with that. But your criticisms of the 'vision' are exactly what I liked about it. Max's cartoon, cliche cut-out universe is what attracted me in the first place (aside from the shoot outs), and given that prior to MP3 there are only two Max Payne games, and both adopt this style, it is understandably the style I associate with the series. You're again making absurd assumptions with stuff like "nee-deep in ironic self-reference somehow automatically makes stuff extremely clever". You're putting my enjoyment and appreciation of Remedy's vision on imaginary pedestal that I never constructed. From the videos I've seen, Max Payne 3 is a dramatic tonal and presentation shift, distancing the series from its origins of cheese and silliness. I like the cheese. I like the silliness. I like Lake's often eye rolling convoluted metaphors and dumb, cliché dialogue. Your argument boils down to basically the exact opposite of mine. You don't like or care for Remedy's vision. You see nothing of value there, and don't give a shit that Rockstar is changing that. I, on the other hand, liked it, and strongly identify the series with it. Given Rockstar is changing that, this is the root of my concerns.

I understand this a little bit, but that had it's heyday and it's time for video games to grow up and mature. I personally love the tone and direction this game has and I wish more games followed it's lead rather than most of the nonsensical drivel we get. Video games like Max Payne 3 (hopefully) help legitimize games as an art form. I hate that games are often generalized by the public as mindless crap and we are always confined to the kid's table when talking about entertainment. We need companies like Rockstar pushing the envelope and we should expect more from developers.

[Freewheelin']

Anyone have a link to the Max Payne replay thread? Re-playing through it at the moment, fantastic game

EDIT: Nvm, found it!

[keltickennedy]

If someone wanted to go and create text for this emblem that would be cool. I'm going to be out of town for the weekend, so I don't have time. I will publish it to my account "keltickennedy" so people can grab it.



I was thinking the text would read "NEOGAF" at the top, then "BELIEVE" at the bottom.

[EatChildren]

Fair enough, liking the cheese for what it is is fine of course. Personally, after 2 games like that I am happy to see a different take on the whole thing. In any case I hope we'll all be able to agree that the gameplay will be outstanding, so far it looks like that at least.

Even with Rockstar's history of shitful gunplay, I'm pretty confident Max Payne 3's modern tech advancements, production values and design polish will eclipse what Remedy accomplished in the first two games. Having played through both games again quite recently, I felt the original Max Payne has aged pretty poorly in many respects.

If Rockstar go back to cheap, insta-kill grenade ambushes I'll murder them.

I understand this a little bit, but that had it's heyday and it's time for video games to grow up and mature. I personally love the tone and direction this game has and I wish more games followed it's lead rather than most of the nonsensical drivel we get. Video games like Max Payne 3 (hopefully) help legitimize games as an art form. I hate that games are often generalized by the public as mindless crap and we are always confined to the kid's table when talking about entertainment. We need companies like Rockstar pushing the envelope and we should expect more from developers.

I disagree with absolutely every single word in this post. Few things in this industry and entertainment medium make my stomach churn more than the childish faux maturity battle to 'legitimise' gaming as an 'art form'. It's a long, wild debate for another thread, but growing up is, to me, getting over it.

[Enco]

Just Started MP1 thanks to the free Steam copy and damn it's good.

The graphics are much better than I expected. I was thinking it would be some Deus Ex 1 type of graphics but was pleasantly surprised.

[Marleyman]

Even with Rockstar's history of shitful gunplay, I'm pretty confident Max Payne 3's modern tech advancements, production values and design polish will eclipse what Remedy accomplished in the first two games. Having played through both games again quite recently, I felt the original Max Payne has aged pretty poorly in many respects. If Rockstar go back to cheap, insta-kill grenade ambushes I'll murder them.

I agree up to GTA4. Since, and including GTA4, I really enjoy the gunplay.

[JumpingTheGun]

Just Started MP1 thanks to the free Steam copy and damn it's good. The graphics are much better than I expected. I was thinking it would be some Deus Ex 1 type of graphics but was pleasantly surprised.

Have you played MP2 before? You will be even more pleasantly surprised =p

[Vire]

Even with Rockstar's history of shitful gunplay, I'm pretty confident Max Payne 3's modern tech advancements, production values and design polish will eclipse what Remedy accomplished in the first two games. Having played through both games again quite recently, I felt the original Max Payne has aged pretty poorly in many respects. If Rockstar go back to cheap, insta-kill grenade ambushes I'll murder them. I disagree with absolutely every single word in this post. Few things in this industry and entertainment medium make my stomach churn more than the childish faux maturity battle to 'legitimise' gaming as an 'art form'. It's a long, wild debate for another thread, but growing up is, to me, getting over it.

I think there's plenty of room for games to exist in their current capacity. All I'm asking for is a little bit more to chew on. Much like cinema there are movies that challenge you to think and ask questions and there are the mindless summer blockbuster that are just plain fun. I'm not saying I want the simple games to be eradicated, I'm just saying there is room for both and I hope games grow in their story-telling capacity in the future. Is it so wrong to want a little something more from our video games? Don't get me wrong, I still love and enjoy games like Trials Evolution, where there is absolutely no story and the mere point is just to have fun, but I'm also looking for the other side of the spectrum.

Max Payne 3 won't be a literary masterpiece by any means, but it's likely the best we have at the moment in terms of narrative.

[Spayro]

If anyone, for some weird reason, hasn't played MP1/2, I'm more than willing to give away the free copies I got on steam. just PM me.

edit: gone with the wind.

[Grisby]

I was leery, and still kinda am, of Rockstar handling the gameplay. While I feel the shooting in Red Dead was the best that they have ever done it still didn't quite click with me. The guns and such still felt too weak.

Still, after watching some videos I'm definitely more on board (although I do hope some noir cheese is still present somewheres).

[JumpingTheGun]

If anyone, for some weird reason, hasn't played MP1/2, I'm more than willing to give away the free copies I got on steam. just PM me.

[EatChildren]

I think there's plenty of room for games to exist in their current capacity. All I'm asking for is a little bit more to chew on. Much like cinema there are movies that challenge you to think and ask questions and there are the mindless summer blockbuster that are just plain fun. I'm not saying I want the simple games to be eradicated, I'm just saying there is room for both and I hope games grow in their story-telling capacity in the future. Max Payne 3 won't be a literary masterpiece by any means, but it's the best we have at the moment in terms of narrative.

Max Payne 3 strikes me as a summer blockbuster, not a game that challenges you to think. But I've got no beef with better presentation and execution of narrative and story telling in games anyway, so I'm down with that. It's just that the 'games as art' argument is a sour and painful one for me, that always seems to fall back on a weird and frankly pathetic desperation for legitimisation of an entertainment medium that doesn't need it.

Sorry if I came off aggressive. It's just...yeah.

[dorn.]

For everybody who has seen the Youtube Walkthrough vid(spoiler for first couple minutes, so relatively safe):

the flashforward with Max and the shot-to-shit, partially burned and dismembered guy in the hangar has to be among the coolest scenes I have ever seen in a video game. Reminds me of Breaking Bad, not just Max's look but the whole flashforward thing.

"I couldn't tell right from wrong if one was helping the poor and the other was banging my sister."
And people feared this game wasn't "noir" enough.

[jett]

How long is the campaign, anyone know?

I said it years ago, Euphoria need to be in EVERYTHING. Next gen better deliver.

Since the Natural Motion people work directly with the developers that's pretty much humanely impossible.

[Vire]

Max Payne 3 strikes me as a summer blockbuster, not a game that challenges you to think. But I've got no beef with better presentation and execution of narrative and story telling in games anyway, so I'm down with that. It's just that the 'games as art' argument is a sour and painful one for me, that always seems to fall back on a weird and frankly pathetic desperation for legitimisation of an entertainment medium that doesn't need it. Sorry if I came off aggressive. It's just...yeah.

Why is video games as art such a sour topic for you? Video games are a powerful medium because they can do something no entertainment medium is capable of doing; interacting with the person. When I go to a gallery, I want it to make me feel something rather than just leaving indifferent. Hopefully, games will get to that point. Sometimes mediums can be used for more emotions rather than just to "have fun".

I doubt Max Payne will be that game, but at least it's heading towards the direction I'm looking for.

My grandfather is a painter and it's been amazing to see his reaction to the evolution of games over time. He was absolutely dumbfounded by artistry of the landscapes in Red Dead Redemption.

[blitzcloud]

If someone wanted to go and create text for this emblem that would be cool. I'm going to be out of town for the weekend, so I don't have time. I will publish it to my account "keltickennedy" so people can grab it. I was thinking the text would read "NEOGAF" at the top, then "BELIEVE" at the bottom.

Liking the frame.

[willooi]

For everybody who has seen the Youtube Walkthrough vid(spoiler for first couple minutes, so relatively safe): the flashforward with Max and the shot-to-shit, partially burned and dismembered guy in the hangar has to be among the coolest scenes I have ever seen in a video game. Reminds me of Breaking Bad, not just Max's look but the whole flashforward thing. "I couldn't tell right from wrong if one was helping the poor and the other was banging my sister." And people feared this game wasn't "noir" enough.

One angry gringo, all right. Can't wait to find out how it gets to that point...footage was amazing.

[keltickennedy]

How long is the campaign, anyone know? Since the Natural Motion people work directly with the developers that's pretty much humanely impossible.

^Yeah, Rockstar has slowly implemented more features into their RAGE engine. It's not just something any developer can do.

[EatChildren]

Why is video games as art such a sour topic for you? Video games are a powerful medium because they can do something no entertainment medium is capable of doing; interacting with the person. When I go to a gallery, I want it to make me feel something rather than just leaving indifferent. Hopefully, games will get to that point.

I don't disagree with the idea of artistic merit and discussion in video games, or that video games can make you feel something. I'm also very much for exploring new ways to immerse players into experiences and convey feelings and emotions through the art of interactivity.

What I don't like is the arguments of legitimising games as art, for two branches of reasoning:

1) There is no concrete definition of art. 'Art' is an extremely vague term, with definitions that can differ drastically from person to person. Having no rules or definition is the very essence of art. So at what point can video games become art? There might be a point where you define them as art, but this is a personal definition, and not one that can be attributed to 'art' as a whole.

2) Who, exactly, are we 'legitimising' art to? Who is the authority of art? As above, if art has no true definition, then how can we grant authority to someone or a group or an idea of art? Why does it even matter? Why does there need to be an acceptance, or legitimisation, of videogames as art from an authority figure(s)?

What I think is more interesting and important is discussing the artistic merits and qualities of particular video games. It has to be discussed on a case by case basis. The analysis of individual titles and their artistic merit, and our personal arguments as to why this is in fact artistic merit at all.

But the idea of 'video games' being 'legitimised as art' is a war that doesn't need to be won. Nobody has the authority to bestow the title of 'art' upon an entire form of entertainment and expression, and the title itself has no factual or defined qualities. 'Video games' are no more or less 'art' than 'movies are/aren't art'. It's the individual works themselves that are most important.

[throwawayname]

I want the MP bundle from steam but the first one is unavaiable in my country and the second one is cut :(

[Vire]

I don't disagree with the idea of artistic merit and discussion in video games, or that video games can make you feel something. I'm also very much for exploring new ways to immerse players into experiences and convey feelings and emotions through the art of interactivity. What I don't like is the arguments of legitimising games as art, for two branches of reasoning: 1) There is no concrete definition of art. 'Art' is an extremely vague term, with definitions that can differ drastically from person to person. Having no rules or definition is the very essence of art. So at what point can video games become art? There might be a point where you define them as art, but this is a personal definition, and not one that can be attributed to 'art' as a whole. 2) Who, exactly, are we 'legitimising' art to? Who is the authority of art? As above, if art has no true definition, then how can we grant authority to someone or a group or an idea of art? Why does it even matter? Why does there need to be an acceptance, or legitimisation, of videogames as art from an authority figure(s)? What I think is more interesting and important is discussing the artistic merits and qualities of particular video games. It has to be discussed on a case by case basis. The analysis of individual titles and their artistic merit, and our personal arguments as to why this is in fact artistic merit at all. But the idea of 'video games' being 'legitimised as art' is a war that doesn't need to be won. Nobody has the authority to bestow the title of 'art' upon an entire form of entertainment and expression, and the title itself has no factual or defined qualities. 'Video games' are no more or less 'art' than 'movies are/aren't art'. It's the individual works themselves that are most important.

I agree with nearly everything in this post. Art is something so incredibly subjective that is something defined by each individuals own standards. Even then, it is very difficult to "define" what makes something art versus what isn't. I guess for myself personally, as stated above is something that makes me feel something emotionally. Either being awed by something's beauty or enraged by something in disgust. This is just generally speaking and there are so many other factors but I guess that's the most important for myself.

As for the second point, why does it matter? It doesn't really matter, but it would be nice to finally get the acceptance from my elders and parents of one of my favorite passions and hobbies in life. A lot of times these people don't even realize how far we have come in terms of narrative and storytelling ability as they are so blissfully ignorant about the entire culture.

But whatcha gonna do?

The most important part is satisfying me personally rather than others of course.

[TxdoHawk]

Oh man, does my work shift feel infinitely longer all of a sudden...

[Exodus]

I can't stand waiting for this game! >_<

[Marleyman]

Oh man, does my work shift feel infinitely longer all of a sudden...

damn....where did you get it?

[TxdoHawk]

damn....where did you get it?

Local shady mom and pop in NJ.

[Marleyman]

Local shady mom and pop in NJ.

I had a good spot a few years ago; no such luck any longer.

[rvy]

Oh man, does my work shift feel infinitely longer all of a sudden...

I hate you.

[Sleepy Buddha]

Already pre-purchased on Steam as soon as that went up. But the temptation to double dip is killing me. Having to wait another 3 weeks while everyone else plays will be painful.

PS:

Oh man, does my work shift feel infinitely longer all of a sudden...

I hate you...

[Marleyman]

That chick on the front looks like a young Rosario Dawson.

[halogamer]

My friend got it somehow and I played it for a while. On the 360 there seemed to be a low framerate. I'm not sure if it was just me, but even in the cutscenes the framerate seemed like 20-25fps. I only got to play the first chapter. The shooting feels really good.

[TxdoHawk]

I know that feel GAF bros, so let's do this: I will answer any non-story-spoiler questions you may have. (Mods, if this is too iffy for your tastes, please let me know.)

[blitzcloud]

Believe!

[Vire]

My friend got it somehow and I played it for a while. On the 360 there seemed to be a low framerate. I'm not sure if it was just me, but even in the cutscenes the framerate seemed like 20-25fps. I only got to play the first chapter. The shooting feels really good.

How about during gameplay? The framerate dips there as well? Is it throughout every level?

[mudkyp]

Watching Hard Boiled for the first time today in preparation. My life has been so empty up until now.