[inky]

Calling a game "artsy" (or for that matter "artistic") was kind of funny at first, but now it has become empowering, which poisons the discussion. There is no good reason to create a barrier between these games and "non-artsy" games. It is mostly done in an arbitrary manner which is most based of how pretentious the noise around the game is and the size of the frames on the glasses the "indie" dev wears..

They are trying to create their own highbrow niche in gaming, which when you think about it, is just hilarious. It's just a (dumb) search for some legitimacy and/or maybe status, but it seems more to me that some devs are trying just to will 'art' into existence sometimes even disregarding the strengths of a medium like videogames.

Edit: I don't really care about the PS3 discussion, more about the general tone coming from people who make these games.

[test_account]

EDIT: Nevermind, missread something.

[Freezie KO]

There's more art in Super Mario Galaxy's opening level than the entirety of Heavy Rain. It's time to redefine what "art" actually is when it comes to gaming, instead of trying to ape standards from other media.

[Sir_Crocodile]

I don't think that's what he meant at all; just that the audience on PS3 is more interested in games that are a little different.

Whether or not that's what he meant, it's what it's going to come across as. And personally it's what I interpret it as.

And what you interpret it as is offensive enough to be honest.

[squidyj]

And I go to McDonald's for haute cuisine.

PS3 owners more likely to be interested in bad games

LOL, games he says.

So 360/Wii owners prefer proper games. PC has all arty games beat though.

Hmmmmmm, I think he might be right. Jenova Chen, that is.

[HoodWinked]

so no study, no actual evidence. just something jenova declared. k.

[Ledsen]

Ah, yes, Heavy Rain. The thinking mans game... wait, what the fuck is he talking about?

Also butter_stick threads should be a banned meme.

[Jo Shishido's Cheeks]

Right about Sony, yes. Jumping from there and assuming that the PS3 actually has more people interested in these titles than the 360, when they'e only released on the PS3/PSN to begin with, however... Not so much, precisely because those games aren't on the 360/XBL and so we have no way of knowing how well they would have actually done on it, especially when on top of that we don't actually know how well (in terms of numbers) Journey actually did (or in other words, how healthy PSN is right now/what it takes to top the charts on it).

But why do these type of games only appear on PSN rather than XBL?
Is it by chance?
Or are you perhaps discounting the huge amount of time and resources Sony and Microsoft have dedicated to identifying their respective audiences?
Sony don't tell their audience what they should want to buy, instead they give them what they actually do want to buy. There's a huge difference.
If there was a big, untapped 'arty' audience starved of content then Microsoft would have recognised and catered toward it. 100%.
The fact they haven't and such software does only appear on Playstation proves Jenova's point.

[SmokyDave]

It is very strange and something I see constantly on GAF.

I'd suggest that points strongly to organisational issues on the Xbox Live Marketplace.

I love XBLA but I'm struggling to figure out which games you two are alluding to.

[Not a Jellyfish]

I don't agree with that general statement but I would assume he is speaking based on his experience, ThatGameCompany has yet to test the waters of other markets.

Just a weird thing to claim when you have not released an artsy game on another platform.

[Riposte]

There's more art in Super Mario Galaxy's opening level than the entirety of Heavy Rain. It's time to redefine what "art" actually is when it comes to gaming, instead of trying to ape standards from other media.

No reason to limit it to games. Art is bullshit through all the mediums. At least modern art is.

[Lion Heart]

Absolutely agreed. Within consoles anyway.

[xbhaskarx]

If Fez, limbo and braid are artistic games. I guess every game with unique art is "artistic"

They're no Heavy Rain, that's for sure......

[Petrichor]

But why do these type of games only appear on PSN rather than XBL? Is it by chance? Or are you perhaps discounting the huge amount of time and resources Sony and Microsoft have dedicated to identifying their respective audiences? Sony don't tell their audience what they should want to buy, instead they give them what they actually do want to buy. There's a huge difference. If there was a big, untapped 'arty' audience starved of content then Microsoft would have recognised and catered toward it. 100%. The fact they haven't and such software does only appear on Playstation proves Jenova's point.

Because they've all been made by one developer who signed an exclusive deal with Sony.

....

[Fixed1979]

Ah, yes, Heavy Rain. The thinking mans game... wait, what the fuck is he talking about?

Whether you enjoyed it or not Heavy Rain was an "outside the box" game or niche title. When I hear "artsy" I usually think of smaller budget niche games that don't follow the same gaming principles that the vast majority of games do. Shit on HR all you want but at least it was a different experience than SMG (which I loved).

[Rad-]

So Heavy Rain counts but not games like Fez or Limbo?

[butter_stick]

There's more art in Super Mario Galaxy's opening level than the entirety of Heavy Rain. It's time to redefine what "art" actually is when it comes to gaming, instead of trying to ape standards from other media.

Depends on what art means. Technically, all video games are art in the sense they're constructed visual products. So when people are talking about art games, I guess what they're really talking about is the author trying to embed a message or emotion in the product. Say what you will about Heavy Rain (I actually kinda liked the game for what it is), but it is obviously trying to make you feel some kind of emotion during itself story. Most the time that emotion is unintentional humour, but hey.

[Fixed1979]

So Heavy Rain counts but not games like Fez or Limbo?

Who said they didn't count?

[Jo Shishido's Cheeks]

Because they've all been made by one developer who signed an exclusive deal with Sony. ....

Thatgamecompany have made Heavy Rain, Afrika, LittleBigPlanet, detuned, Linger in Shadows, The Last Guardian and more all in the past six years?
Wow they've been very busy! Hope they don't burn themselves out.....

[Riposte]

Whether you enjoyed it or not Heavy Rain was an "outside the box" game or niche title. When I hear "artsy" I usually think of smaller budget niche games that don't follow the same gaming principles that the vast majority of games do. Shit on HR all you want but at least it was a different experience than SMG (which I loved).

To what end? Thinking "outside the box" is worthless alone. Being different isn't being special.

Heavy Rain tried to be a game about QTEs as a follow up to the also terrible Indigo Prophecy.

[Sho_Nuff82]

But why do these type of games only appear on PSN rather than XBL? Is it by chance? Or are you perhaps discounting the huge amount of time and resources Sony and Microsoft have dedicated to identifying their respective audiences? Sony don't tell their audience what they should want to buy, instead they give them what they actually do want to buy. There's a huge difference. If there was a big, untapped 'arty' audience starved of content then Microsoft would have recognised and catered toward it. 100%. The fact they haven't and such software does only appear on Playstation proves Jenova's point.

Have you ever heard the story behind The Dishwasher?

Do you even know what Dream Build Play is? XNA?

Do you realize how pedestrian the top 10 selling indy game list on PSN was last year?

I'd suggest that points strongly to organisational issues on the Xbox Live Marketplace. I love XBLA but I'm struggling to figure out which games you two are alluding to.

I'm struggling to see how anyone could argue that MS hasn't been as open, if not more aggressive, in promoting independent game development as Sony.

Dust: An Elysian Tale is dripping with "art".

[Fixed1979]

To what end? Being outside the box is worthless alone. Being different isn't being special.

It's special to me, I actually my enjoyed HR play-through, every time I get a chance to have a different gaming experience it has value to me whether that's HR, Limbo, Audiosurf, or Journey.

Do you realize how pedestrian the top 10 selling indy game list on PSN was last year?

Can't see the list from here, any chance you can post it?

[bj00rn_]

[injurai]

But if i get of my high horse i might get hurt...

[test_account]

PS3 owners more likely to be interested in bad games

The games are great. It is possible to appreciate a game for what it is even if one doesnt have any interest in playing it.

[Riposte]

Depends on what art means. Technically, all video games are art in the sense they're constructed visual products. So when people are talking about art games, I guess what they're really talking about is the author trying to embed a message or emotion in the product. Say what you will about Heavy Rain (I actually kinda liked the game for what it is), but it is obviously trying to make you feel some kind of emotion during itself story. Most the time that emotion is unintentional humour, but hey.

Making a player feel an emotion and having a message is not noteworthy. Every game does it.

[Criminal Upper]

Way to lose my respect, thatgamescompany.

Saying "Group X is different than group Y because of Z" when it comes to video games is an automatic fail.

[Petrichor]

Depends on what art means. Technically, all video games are art in the sense they're constructed visual products. So when people are talking about art games, I guess what they're really talking about is the author trying to embed a message or emotion in the product. Say what you will about Heavy Rain (I actually kinda liked the game for what it is), but it is obviously trying to make you feel some kind of emotion during itself story. Most the time that emotion is unintentional humour, but hey.

So what about the fable games? Molyneux is always banging on about that specific intention, and they sell pretty well on the 360.

[watership]

Do you notice that every butter_stick thread has a bunch of questions at the bottom of of his posts?
Do you wonder why, even when he presents a news story, he feels the need to do this?
Do you think this method is interesting or annoying?
Do you like eggs?
What are the chances he'll do this in every posts he makes?

[Sho_Nuff82]

Can't see the list from here, any chance you can post it?

Limbo (Playdead) Castle Crashers (The Behemoth) TestYourself Psychology (Creat Studios) Marvel Pinball (Zen Studios) Worms 2 Armageddon (Team 17) Dungeon Defenders (Trendy Entertainment) Armageddon Riders (Targem Games) Braid (Number None Inc.) UnderSiege (Seed Studios) Hamsterball (TikGames)

.

[SmokyDave]

I'm struggling to see how anyone could argue that MS hasn't been as open, if not more aggressive, in promoting independent game development as Sony. Dust: An Elysian Tale is dripping with "art".

Because the fruits of their labours are not evident. I thought you were going to point me to a treasure trove of arty XBLA titles that I'd missed, not just one (unreleased) title.

As I say, I love XBLA. On the whole, there are more XBLA games I enjoy than PSN games. I just don't see the type of games that I assume Jenova is talking about when I look at XBLA.

This topic has reminded me how miserable I am that .detuned hasn't been ported to the Vita. It's not even a real game, but I love it.

[Jo Shishido's Cheeks]

Have you ever heard the story behind The Dishwasher? Do you even know what Dream Build Play is? XNA? Do you realize how pedestrian the top 10 selling indy game list on PSN was last year?

So Sony's ethos can be distilled down to what sold on their digital distribution platform in one single year alone?
As impressive as the development story behind The Dishwasher is, it's not dissimilar to what Sony themselves did with Everyday Shooter and besides, helping developers and catering toward artistically inclined consumers aren't one and the same...

Do you think the Dream-Build-Play initiative was formulated on the idea of making 'artistic' works?

[timetokill]

So when people are talking about art games, I guess what they're really talking about is the author trying to embed a message or emotion in the product.

Pretty sure that the Super Mario Galaxy team was trying to embed the emotion of Joy in the product, at which they damn well succeeded.

This whole thing is pointless. Jenova is partaking in some puffery, Sony is joining suit, and we're just arguing about a bullshit meaningless "art games" definition again.

[KalBalboa]

Making a player feel an emotion and having a message is not noteworthy. Every game does it.

I certainly don't agree with you there. Even in a certain light, a lot of entertainment experiences don't aim to convey much aside from broad conventions of fun (and there's nothing wrong with that).

Gears of War and Heavy Rain have completely different priorities when it comes to their goals for the end user, plain and simple.

[Blizzard]

Who said they didn't count?

Someone earlier in the thread suggested that they were just indie games with a unique art style, a dime a dozen now, and apparently not worthy of being thought of as artistic.

Thatgamecompany have made Heavy Rain, Afrika, LittleBigPlanet, detuned, Linger in Shadows, The Last Guardian and more all in the past six years? Wow they've been very busy! Hope they don't burn themselves out.....

The Last Guardian isn't out yet. Rhino Studios has apparently only made one game, so I'm not sure if they're Sony-exclusive.

detuned and Linger in Shadows are apparently demoscene games, which as far as I understand means they were developed focusing specifically on the PS3 hardware, which might make porting them difficult.

In general, I thought that companies that make the Sony-exclusive games mentioned in this thread (Heavy Rain, Journey, etc.) make games almost exclusively for Sony, but perhaps I am wrong. The article sounds a bit to me like saying "Journey is only available on the PS3, and not the 360, therefore the 360 audience wouldn't like it". :P I think if Journey were on the 360, people would play it, and some valid comparison data might be gained.

Now whether Microsoft has bad practices regarding XBLA/360 developers is another story, maybe Microsoft is to blame.

[SuperSonic1305]

I feel bad for any snails that wander into this thread.

[theBishop]

Well I think he's entirely correct. When thinking of Heavy Rain, Afrika, LittleBigPlanet, Flower, Linger in Shadows, The Last Guardian... etc, then it's pretty apparent that Sony are catering to, if not a more adult audience, then perhaps a more sophisticated one than the average publisher/developer aims for.

Yeah, that's about as far as I'd go. Xbox360 definitely had some "artistic" games, particularly on XBLA, but Microsoft never funded anything as big and unproven as Heavy Rain. It got compared to Alan Wake, but they were very different games.

[Zekes!]

"art games" is like my least favourite gaming term/niche in gaming right now. As long as it's quirky, or "unique", or even worse "innovative" and/or has a hand drawn art style, it apparently qualifies as "art" and some how above every other game.

[theBishop]

Way to lose my respect, thatgamescompany. Saying "Group X is different than group Y because of Z" when it comes to video games is an automatic fail.

Would he have lost your respect if he had said "Wii owners tend to prefer colorful all-ages mascot adventures while Xbox owners tend to prefer sci-fi space shooters"

?

[kruis]

The only real difference between the PS3 and the 360 are their exclusive games and it's absolutely true that Sony likes to push (and publish) games with an indie esthetic compared to Microsoft's safe approach that won't scare away dudebros and soccer moms.

Just look at the games Sony has published: LittleBigPlanet, Patapon, Flower, Journey, Datura, Echochrome, Loco Roco, PixelJunk Eden, Escape Plan, Fat Princess, .detuned, Linger in Shadows.. MS would never ever have financed and published these games, but it's par for the course for Sony.

[Riposte]

I certainly don't agree with you there. Even in a certain light, a lot of entertainment experiences don't aim to convey much aside from broad conventions of fun (and there's nothing wrong with that). Gears of War and Heavy Rain have completely different priorities when it comes to their goals for the end user, plain and simple.

It is all entertainment, if we are speaking "plain and simple". Heavy Rain is also an "entertainment experience", just as much Gears of War is an "artistic experience".

If you really want to find the differences one should look in the methods, not "priorities" (garbage said after the fact). Heavy Rain means to entertain through a QTE system and overwritten storyline presented like a film (it hopes to capture interest through the novelty of this). That is unusual (which spurs people into calling it "artsy") because few popular games are so shallow.

[MTMBStudios]

I was playing Contra: Hard Corps earlier on my genesis and I have concluded that it objectively has a higher quantity of high art per square inch than any of the games mentioned in the OP.

[Criminal Upper]

Would he have lost your respect if he had said "Wii owners tend to prefer colorful all-ages mascot adventures while Xbox owners tend to prefer sci-fi space shooters" ?

Yep.

[Fixed1979]

"art games" is like my least favourite gaming term/niche in gaming right now. As long as it's quirky, or "unique", or even worse "innovative" and/or has a hand drawn art style, it apparently qualifies as "art" and some how above every other game.

I think most people would agree it's a virtually meaningless adjective for games.

[Riposte]

I think most people would agree it's a virtually meaningless adjective for games.

Then why do most people use it?

[Atomski]

I honestly think the thatgamecompany will prove themselves wrong if they go multiplatform. Specially on PC.

[Nerfgun]

It just seems like Sony is more willing to take a risk on, well, riskier fare. And fund it (pub fund, dev deals).

I mean... what was the name of that game in development with the pub fund that had the little boy in the favelas with the big pink monster, that was a metaphor for a boy's abusive relationship with his dad?

Just not the kind of thing I could see MS going for, historically.

edit - Papo & Yo

[Fancy Corndog]

Are Xbox 360 and Wii owners uneducated idiots who don't understand art?

Well, that's the only reasonable conclusion.

But on a serious note, I'd imagine that the average age of PS3 owners is higher than that of 360 owners (and definitely Wii owners). I'm sure PC players are older and more mature, but he was also specifically talking about 360 and Wii in his comments.

[Fixed1979]

Then why do most people use it?

Laziness? No idea really...I'm supposing it narrows down the type of game their trying to describe. But it's pretty apparent that it has different connotations depending on a persons view so the term looses meaning as there's no clear definition.

Well, that's the only reasonable conclusion. But on a serious note, I'd imagine that the average age of PS3 owners is higher than that of 360 owners (and definitely Wii owners).

It'd be fun to know the answer, though I'm guessing you're right.

[Carl]

I'd say "arty" in this sense is more like an "art house film" - made independently and aimed at a rather niche market - than being actual art.