[Corto]

No it's not.

Where do you watch your porn?

[squidyj]

Making a player feel an emotion and having a message is not noteworthy. Every game does it.

wat

actually after reading further your opinions about Heavy Rain and your incessant need to extrapolate that to this thread are laughable in all respects. I'm done.

[ZAK]

actually, thats pretty much exactly what it equals.

So, for example, Wii owners in North America weren't interested in Xenoblade until NOA finally decided to publish it.

[jaypah]

MS took a huge financial gamble with Rare that didn't pay off. All of the Rare games published by MS were commercial failures one way or another. Now Rare is just a shadow of its former glory, happy to work on avatars and Kinect sports games. Five years ago MS was at least taking a few risks, but the current management team is playing it very, VERY safe. Halo, Forza, Fable, Kinect. And let's not forget that Viva Pinata was co-developed as an animated cartoon show order to broaden the Xbox 360's appeal to young children. VP was a deep, beautiful looking game, but there was a commercial ploy behind it.

I already said the games failed and probably won't get sequels...what more do you want from me? I also agree that Viva Piñata was done all for the nookie. Also MS takes no risks. Though betting the bank on completely controllerless depth cameras seems risky but I guess not.

Again, It doesn't affect me, i own everything current except a Vita (which i plan to purchase). I just find people trying so hard to prove that one company is the art Mecca and the other is casuaggle dudebro both stupid and funny.

[EGM1966]

In terms of consoles he could be right - but I'd need to see a lot more concrete demographic sales info before I'll take this as anything more than a general impression he has.

[MuseManMike]

I was playing Contra: Hard Corps earlier on my genesis and I have concluded that it objectively has a higher quantity of high art per square inch than any of the games mentioned in the OP.

I know you're being somewhat facetious, but I love how hard you try in every thread related to "art." It's enjoyable for me as an observer as you are someone who admittedly does not read literature, listen to music, or care for fine arts. Keep at it and I'm sure one day your disinterest will be accepted.

[staticneuron]

Calling a game "artsy" (or for that matter "artistic") was kind of funny at first, but now it has become empowering, which poisons the discussion. There is no good reason to create a barrier between these games and "non-artsy" games. It is mostly done in an arbitrary manner which is most based off how pretentious the noise around the game is and the size of the frames on the glasses the "indie" dev wears. EDIT: This Linger in Shadows game seems to be a cheesy movie (with cool music) which stops often and forces you to solve a nonsensical puzzle.

They are trying to create their own highbrow niche in gaming, which when you think about it, is just hilarious. It's just a (dumb) search for some legitimacy and/or maybe status, but it seems more to me that some devs are trying just to will 'art' into existence sometimes even disregarding the strengths of a medium like videogames. Edit: I don't really care about the PS3 discussion, more about the general tone coming from people who make these games.

Games are medium. It's strength is how flexible it is in comparison o other mediums. There is no right or wrong way to make a "game" we just tend to judge how far off a final product is from its intended target.

Some gamers tend to play games with a high emphasis on gameplay (interactive aspects) alone. Some prefer lore and story as a stronger aspects. Some claim that games are their best when social elements are involved (multiplayer) and more than a few don't consider a game to be the best unless it combines as many elements as it can in a smooth performing package.

As much as one would think that the difference between artistic games and mainstream games are readily apparent it seems as if some don't understand.


Artistic games are more interested in pushing abstract/complicated themes and ideas that may not be easy to pull of in any other medium. Gameplay, graphics, story (if there is even one) may not be the best or unique but the at is acceptable because it isn't the point.

What makes games special is that unlike a movie, song, or a novel, the element of interaction helps the gamer to form his own perspective on what is being shown without everything being handed to him.

[east of eastside]

I consider most of the exclusive "artsy" content on PSN pretentiously artistic shelled casual games sold to PS3 fans who think it's special.

Art is what Microsoft and Sony eventually drove out of gaming.

[TUROK]

So the company that makes artistic games exclusively for Sony is saying that PS3 players like artistic games better?

[staticneuron]

It is all entertainment, if we are speaking "plain and simple". Heavy Rain is also an "entertainment experience", just as much Gears of War is an "artistic experience". If you really want to find the differences one should look in the methods, not "priorities" (garbage said after the fact). Heavy Rain means to entertain through a QTE system and overwritten storyline presented like a film (it hopes to capture interest through the novelty of this). That is unusual (which spurs people into calling it "artsy") because few popular games are so shallow.

You miss the point entirely. Yes it is all entertainment, but that is not to say that that the distinct purpose of the games are the same. Art, in the terms Jenova Chen is talking about is not in the Visual Design aspect (which I would admit that gears is up there) but more about the communication of specific idea's or emotions. The gameplay or method of interaction may not be as important depending on the title and certainly shouldn't be used to catch all description about what defines artistic games.

I would go as far as to claim that Heavy Rain people consider artistic is NOT because of the story but the journey the player has to go on to reach there and the firm consequences of your actions while playing the game. The game tries very hard to put you in the mind of the characters so when they present you certain choices and actions to complete it wouldn't be as clear cut as a typical mainstream game would be.

[maquiladora]

Besides, some of us prefer the beautiful audio art that opens up each game of Trials Evolution.

Haha, perfect.

[CadetMahoney]

So the company that makes artistic games exclusively for Sony is saying that PS3 players like artistic games better?

sounds like it.

[Lynn616]

If his company released the same games on all three systems then he would be in a position to make that statement. Since they do not I see no reason to put any trust in his word.

[Fezan]

I dont know why people are over reacting on this statement.

Avg age of Ps3 owner is higher compared to 360 so they may have different tastes.its simple as that

[GatorBait]

Do you value the opinion of Jenova Chen?

With a first name like Jenova, how can you not?

[Shiloa]

Surprised by the Chen hate. Seriously, read some interviews with him and tell me he's a guy swayed by brand loyalty and is doing this for the PR.

It's also a fact that Sony have targeted an older demographic with the PS3, and has also taken a lot more 'risks' with certain types of games.

How that translates into sales and preferences I don't know, but I'm sure there's some validity to Chen's statement. He only said "more likely" too.

[JordanLMiller]

I'm glad the playstation 3 offers so many mature games for mature gamers such as myself.

[jrDev]

I dont know why people are over reacting on this statement. Avg age of Ps3 owner is higher compared to 360 so they may have different tastes.its simple as that

So, the older you get, the more you like "artsy" (still don't know what that means unless its a painting game) and "mature" stuff?

[Carl]

So, the older you get, the more you like "artsy" (still don't know what that means unless its a painting game) and "mature" stuff?

"Artsy" as in "outside the box" doing something different to every other game out there, independently made, aimed at a niche audience.

[Degen]

We use our Dualshocks with one pinky out at all times

[jrDev]

"Artsy" as in "outside the box" doing something different to every other game out there, independently made, aimed at a niche audience.

Wait, so much qualifiers, so only indie devs can create "artsy" stuff?

[To Far Away Times]

"Press X to Jason" = high art.

[Fancy Corndog]

Wait, so much qualifiers, so only indie devs can create "artsy" stuff?

Are you using the ambiguity of art to try and prove that there's no such thing as a game that is more artistic than another? That's a bit disingenuous isn't it?

[Rahxephon91]

I have a PS3. I have no intrests in any of these artsy games. Hell I wish Sony would crack the whip on one of them regardless of whatever the fuck it's creator is trying to do. At least I can't accuse Sony of only doing them though.

[UrbanRats]

PC is the champion of adult gaming

I agree (if you mean like, Hentai and strip poker games).

[Raonak]

I'd say sony is more likely to publish riskier games.

plus average ps3 owner age is higher.

[Fezan]

So, the older you get, the more you like "artsy" (still don't know what that means unless its a painting game) and "mature" stuff?

Artsy in gaming for me is simply giving you gaming pleasure without resorting to shooting or slashing swords with good artwork music and atmosphere

[Arxisz]

"Press X to Jason" = high art.

JAAAAAAAASOOOOOOOON!

Seriously though but I think they intended for Heavy Rain to be more about emotion than art.

[airmangataosenai]

Artsy indie platformers Braid, Limbo, and Fez did pretty well.

Braid and Limbo for sure, but didn't Fez kind of underperform?

[Clear]

It never ceases to amaze (and dismay) me how some people will take offence at the slightest thing.

So, the older you get, the more you like "artsy" (still don't know what that means unless its a painting game) and "mature" stuff?

Some of us do, yes. I've been shooting stuff in games for the last 30 years of my life - and guess what? The novelty has long since worn off!

Not to suggest that I'm "over" a good blast, but stuff like Journey, or Flower, or Heavy Rain is welcome because its at least trying to give an experience pitched different emotionally.

[Ramblin]

Funny, the older I get the more I want to shoot things.

[Mxrz]

Yeah, he's right about Sony. But he should have stopped there. I'm sure many people who don't own PS3's enjoy beautiful looking games.

Yep. There's probably something to it, but most people will just treat the phrasing as console warrior stuff. I'm glad Sony does experiment more, and I think we're all better for it. I'd rather live in a world where Heavy Rain exists, then in one where it doesn't.

[Fezan]

Braid and Limbo for sure, but didn't Fez kind of underperform?

Braid and limbo are just your regular platformer with great artwork.but these are regular games.which journey and flower are not

[Rahxephon91]

Artsy in gaming for me is simply giving you gaming pleasure without resorting to shooting or slashing swords with good artwork music and atmosphere

And honestly in that case you tend to open yourself to higher criticisms. At least in my opinion.

I don't like Heavy Rain, because it's story is pretty awful. But yet thats what the game is pushing and it has nothing to fall back on. It wants to be a movie, so I'm going to treat it like one. In that comparison it's a very very poor mans Seven.

Something like Red Dead may be a poor mans honest imitation of better western movies, but the game has other things going on for it. And since the story is actually serviceable and works in conjection with a good game part, you have a game tha is fantastic. The story only adds to the game, it doesn't make the game.

Thats really the problem with these art games and why the bore me. They seem to forgo the actual game part in the name of some sort of high level experience. That in my opinion usually falls short and then has nothing to rest itself on.

[UrbanRats]

And honestly in that case you tend to open yourself to higher criticisms. At least in my opinion. I don't like Heavy Rain, because it's story is pretty awful. But yet thats what the game is pushing and it has nothing to fall back on. It wants to be a movie, so I'm going to treat it like one. In that comparison it's a very very poor mans Seven. Something like Red Dead may be a poor mans honest imitation of better western movies, but the game has other things going on for it. And since the story is actually serviceable and works in conjection with a good game part, you have a game tha is fantastic. The story only adds to the game, it doesn't make the game. Thats really the problem with these art games and why the bore me. They seem to forgo the actual game part in the name of some sort of high level experience. That in my opinion usually falls short and then has nothing to rest itself on.

A lot of games considered "artsy" barely have a story though.
Limbo, Journey, Flower, The Void, etc..
Though i agree with you on the principle.

[Riposte]

Artsy in gaming for me is simply giving you gaming pleasure without resorting to shooting or slashing swords with good artwork music and atmosphere

There is no logic to that.

Braid and limbo are just your regular platformer with great artwork.but these are regular games.which journey and flower are not

Flower and Journey are just stripped down versions of "regular" games.


Staticneuron my point is that there is no such thing as "artistic games" (and no such thing a lot of things connected to the word "art"). Another way to understand it would be that there is no such thing as "non-artistic games" if that makes it easier to grasp. Such a label is not based on the games themselves but the hipster clout they gather. If one could make any sort of connection between them it is that this label is applied most often to those who make dumb, shallow games which favor style over substance and most of know it and thus advertise this as a virtue (called "art").

Right now I'm strained to dissect a post which takes calling games "artistic games" on such arbitrary criteria for granted. You pretty much clouded your message with shit and to clarify it I would have to cover myself in it, ultimately making a very convoluted, messy conversation going in a hundred different directions.

But let me say this on defining "artistic games" (a pointless endeavor): I am sick of the platitudes people employ to make such a phrase sound intelligible.

Garbage like "it is an experience" as if you do not experiencing a videogame. Or "it is emotional" as if a videogame does not stimulate your mood (of which there is more than "slight melancholy"). Or "it has a message" as if you don't naturally create meaning from every little thing you see... as if having a message (like this sentence I'm typing right now!) is even fazing. "Makes you think!", "Makes you learn!", etc. What better example of pretentiousness is there if not people using universals like something special?

[TTP]

It never ceases to amaze (and dismay) me how some people will take offence at the slightest thing. Some of us do, yes. I've been shooting stuff in games for the last 30 years of my life - and guess what? The novelty has long since worn off! Not to suggest that I'm "over" a good blast, but stuff like Journey, or Flower, or Heavy Rain is welcome because its at least trying to give an experience pitched different emotionally.

Pretty much how I feel as well.

[theBishop]

I consider most of the exclusive "artsy" content on PSN pretentiously artistic shelled casual games sold to PS3 fans who think it's special. Art is what Microsoft and Sony eventually drove out of gaming.

Who had the art before they banned it?

[beast786]

So the company that makes artistic games exclusively for Sony is saying that PS3 players like artistic games better?

I guess ,next week we will hear from A company that makes artistic game exclusively for MS and will say that 360 players like artistic games better. I wonder which company would it be?

[PairOfFilthySocks]

Artsy in gaming for me is simply giving you gaming pleasure without resorting to shooting or slashing swords with good artwork music and atmosphere

Personally, my main issue is this dude's idea that stuff like Flower, Limbo, etc. are more "artistic" and "deep" than the average game.

[MTMBStudios]

I know you're being somewhat facetious, but I love how hard you try in every thread related to "art." It's enjoyable for me as an observer as you are someone who admittedly does not read literature, listen to music, or care for fine arts. Keep at it and I'm sure one day your disinterest will be accepted.

You are essentially the representation of what I enjoy making fun of. Reading your posts with a straight face is extremely hard. Also it is hard to care for fine arts when I don't really believe they objectively exist.

But no I wasn't really being facetious. Contra Hard: Corps has 10 times the craft of the three games mentioned in the OP combined. I guarantee it will inspire more emotion from you than any of those games - just maybe not the emotions you generally like to arbitrarily tag to "art". Down the road when people wonder why these three mediocre games were unfairly awarded praise, the Contra games (among others) will still be shining examples of what makes gaming great.

[Zabuza]

I loved Journey, does that make me artsy?

[jrDev]

Are you using the ambiguity of art to try and prove that there's no such thing as a game that is more artistic than another? That's a bit disingenuous isn't it?

No. See Riposte quote below...

[funkystudent]

I love that SCE will toss money at the crazy unproven developer with the weird ideas but I wised they would go after more conventional stuff for PSN as well.


PSN could use a good Metroidvania game for example.

[jrDev]

There is no logic to that. Flower and Journey are just stripped down versions of "regular" games. Staticneuron my point is that there is no such thing as "artistic games" (and no such thing a lot of things connected to the word "art"). Another way to understand it would be that there is no such thing as "non-artistic games" if that makes it easier to grasp. Such a label is not based on the games themselves but the hipster clout they gather. If one could make any sort of connection between them it is that this label is applied most often to those who make dumb, shallow games which favor style over substance and most of know it and thus advertise this as a virtue (called "art"). Right now I'm strained to dissect a post which takes calling games "artistic games" on such arbitrary criteria for granted. You pretty much clouded your message with shit and to clarify it I would have to cover myself in it, ultimately making a very convoluted, messy conversation going in a hundred different directions. But let me say this on defining "artistic games" (a pointless endeavor): I am sick of the platitudes people employ to make such a phrase sound intelligible. Garbage like "it is an experience" as if you do not experiencing a videogame. Or "it is emotional" as if a videogame does not stimulate your mood (of which there is more than "slight melancholy"). Or "it has a message" as if you don't naturally create meaning from every little thing you see... as if having a message (like this sentence I'm typing right now!) is even fazing. "Makes you think!", "Makes you learn!", etc. What better example of pretentiousness is there if not people using universals like something special?

.

[Setero]

If he is talking about Sony the company, then yes I have to agree, Sony first party produced games tend to be more mature and artistic compared to Microsoft\Nintendo first party produced games.

[Fancy Corndog]

Flower is not more artistic than Wii Fit or Star Wars Kinect because you can't really prove it. The truth is, Flower is just a stripped down version of a regular game (Flower was originally intended to be a rails shooter with a 12 hour campaign). If you think otherwise, you are being pretentious and you're a hipster. Art is for hipsters.

[namDa65]

There is no logic to that. Flower and Journey are just stripped down versions of "regular" games. Staticneuron my point is that there is no such thing as "artistic games" (and no such thing a lot of things connected to the word "art"). Another way to understand it would be that there is no such thing as "non-artistic games" if that makes it easier to grasp. Such a label is not based on the games themselves but the hipster clout they gather. If one could make any sort of connection between them it is that this label is applied most often to those who make dumb, shallow games which favor style over substance and most of know it and thus advertise this as a virtue (called "art"). Right now I'm strained to dissect a post which takes calling games "artistic games" on such arbitrary criteria for granted. You pretty much clouded your message with shit and to clarify it I would have to cover myself in it, ultimately making a very convoluted, messy conversation going in a hundred different directions. But let me say this on defining "artistic games" (a pointless endeavor): I am sick of the platitudes people employ to make such a phrase sound intelligible. Garbage like "it is an experience" as if you do not experiencing a videogame. Or "it is emotional" as if a videogame does not stimulate your mood (of which there is more than "slight melancholy"). Or "it has a message" as if you don't naturally create meaning from every little thing you see... as if having a message (like this sentence I'm typing right now!) is even fazing. "Makes you think!", "Makes you learn!", etc. What better example of pretentiousness is there if not people using universals like something special?

I disagree with your statement. There is such thing as artistic games, such there is such thing as artistic movies.

If you have played Journey, you would have probably realized a couple of themes.

Here, think about this. People wonder about how vast outer space is, or how high and grand mountains are, but you never really wonder people. The people you see on a public bus, the woman whose glance you caught briefly but looked away, or the man playing football with a couple of his buddies out on the pitch.
There are beautiful themes you can accept and find if you take the time to complete journey.

Journey plays with anonymity, friendship, loneliness, and others.
Flower plays with empowerment, urbanization, and natural beauty.

Titles like Dear Esther tell such a beautiful backstory that I cannot help but listen in awe at the narrative the developers have crafted.

Sure books and movies have done themes, but video games are my preferred medium, and once people realize the artistic potential of this medium, I will be a happier man.

Is this not art? What is art to you?

There is such thing as artistic games, or maybe they should be called interactive art if you detest the term so much.

edit: On the subject of this thread, I would agree with Chen, however there is no statistical data to prove it. PC is number 1 though. Onceuponaspacetime <3

[theBishop]

Flower is not more artistic than Wii Fit or Star Wars Kinect because you can't really prove it. The truth is, Flower is just a stripped down version of a regular game (Flower was originally intended to be a rails shooter with a 12 hour campaign). If you think otherwise, you are being pretentious and you're a hipster. Art is for hipsters.

I made shitty observations before it was cool.

[Fancy Corndog]

I made shitty observations before it was cool.

I forgot to mention my main point after mathematically proving that art is for hipsters and that games like Flower and Journey are really just pretentious, stripped down versions of regular games like Tiger Woods PGA Golf 2006 and Deadliest Catch: Sea of Chaos.

I find it offensive that someone would say people who play video games on my console of choice are not as open to artistic games.