[Minion101]

WoW is starting to run its course at this point but having a hit MMO is like having a hit Social network. Like dethroning facebook something.

[bjb]

Dat Warhammer.

Both games had Mythic's golden touch...

Coincidence?

[iSurvivedTheOutage]

f2p incoming

lol

[chickdigger802]

Did they ever get around to implement all the 'missing' companion quests?

It is quite odd that shit just 'fades to black' for a bunch of them.

[Silly.Mikey]

should have just made KOTOR 3

I agree. But i guess those 15$ a month was just too hard to pass up for them. Theres something about MMOs to me that just aren't as fun as regular sp RPGs.

[commish]

Holy shit. On top of the extremely negative publicity, today there's player-crafted items vanishing from thin air. Largely due to new patch that was deployed last night. http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=448263 I swear to god this game is turning into a comedy of errors. Just completely embarrassing for anyone attached to this project.

Ha, let's not be overly dramatic about things.

[kittens]

Ouch, that's a lot of subs. The MMO market ain't a friendly one.

[Mr. Enigma]

Lmao. Age of Conan. How could I ever forget?

[Hawk269]

I played for the first 3 months, but it was a pain in the ass because of all the issues. Alot of performance issues...just broken stuff. I really did enjoy alot that the game offered, but did not feel paying $15.00 for what to me seemed like a "rushed out product". I am still waiting for them to fix some stuff and I will play it again, but not until they fix more things. 1.2 update was a big improvement, but still not enough for me.

With them losing that many sub's should say something to them about providing a better quality product and hopefully this will motivate them to really focus on some of the ouotstanding issues.

[FieryBalrog]

The only that really surprises me there is AION. I was under the impression that it crashed pretty hard soon after launch.

It did in the West. That's probably the Asian numbers. Aion was huge in the East and to a lesser extent still is.

[Zefah]

Ouch, that's a lot of subs. The MMO market ain't a friendly one.

Definitely not. Due to the nature of the gameplay, it's very much a "there can be only one" kind of market. You're encouraged to form communities and play every single day. MMORPGs become your main game. Put a subscription fee on top of that, and asking people to play multiple MMORPGs becomes a very difficult proposition.

You've got to be the ideal game for a large amount of people if you want to do well. That doesn't mean you need to beat WoW--it just means you need to carve out your own niche and budget realistically.

[bjb]

It's hard to enjoy anything in Swtor, regardless of the quality - when 90% of the servers are dead.

[kuroshiki]

It did in the West. That's probably the Asian numbers. Aion was huge in the East and to a lesser extent still is.

You mean Korea. I don't think Japan and China play Aion that much.

[BattleMonkey]

Did they ever get around to implement all the 'missing' companion quests? It is quite odd that shit just 'fades to black' for a bunch of them.

They aren't missing, they just never had quests. The only companions that have actual quests are the first companions you unlock for all classes, all other companions just have dialogue quests.

Holy shit. On top of the extremely negative publicity, today there's player-crafted items vanishing from thin air. Largely due to new patch that was deployed last night. http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=448263 I swear to god this game is turning into a comedy of errors. Just completely embarrassing for anyone attached to this project.

And they are fixing it already tomorrow.

[passthatish]

I agree. But i guess those 15$ a month was just too hard to pass up for them. Theres something about MMOs to me that just aren't as fun as regular sp RPGs.

You just nailed it man.

[bigtroyjon]

Riccitiello just said that the loss of subscribers doesn't really matter because this game isn't all that important in the first place. Oh and that 1.7 million number from the last earnings wasn't a good representation but "they had a duty to report the number" so the loss isn't as bad as it looks.

Guy is a total clown and I have no idea what I was thinking buying some EA options a few months ago.

[fluffydelusions]

Riccitiello just said that the loss of subscribers doesn't really matter because this game isn't all that important in the first place.

Why I'd never put much faith into EA for a decent MMO. Servers will be closed in less than 2 years.

[SatelliteOfLove]

MMOs aren't dying, but they are incredibly stagnant. The market is ripe for somebody to come in and make a truly different experience; look at the excitement and hype that surrounded the ES MMO. Then it was outed as another me-too WoW clone, and that was the end of it. People are sick to death of that formula.

You'd be surprised how many different takes with their own solar systems of clones exist right now! Thing is, the rest tend to be intimidating in one way or another, or just not have that zesty zeitgeist EQ or WoW had.

These are the three biggest, IMO. It's amazing how even games imitating WoW have a hard time getting the mechanics anywhere near the same league.

Really though. Clunk-ass clunky healing models, rigid sluggish animation routines, unimaginative spells, skills and talents, the list goes on. That should always be the first thing crafted, but just like garish, lifeless worlds greeting the new player instead of zones with an omnipresent "sense of place", whoever's in charge insists upon approximating instead of getting something great working first, then flood in the cash. Must be nice having more money than one knows what to do with.

I'd agree with that. And I raided last night... unless you're in a guild, it seems like most people you encounter are passive aggressive douche bags. The way they play the game is the right way, the way everybody else does is wrong, etc. It's amazing to me how WoW went from a really social experience in gaming, to pretty much soloing shit unless you want to do dungeons with assholes.

I found in the last 4 years (6 months, 3 months off, 2 on, year off, 2 on, then never again), it isn't the asshole quotient going up any*, it's the apathy quotient. Sure, like Bisnic said, you can get them to talk, but getting one to befriend you has a lot of barriers in the way, and fewer and fewer incintives to encourage it. It is a game you go INTO with friends, not go into to MAKE more. I can imagine how it is for a game like Sweater that has so many channels.

*I think it's that assholes don't get themselves sorted right propah with blacklisting after showing their asses in groups, or the skilled ones tended to gravitate towards each other in mostly-asshole guilds. Now the pot is mixed more thoroughly.

Naw, it was a TBC clone with some quality of life changes and a dash of WotLK. Feature creep seemed to stop shortly after it was announced. It's as if everything past the first three months of WotLK was ignored.

Must be nice.

[Dapperk]

It's hard to enjoy anything in Swtor, regardless of the quality - when 90% of the servers are dead.

This is probably the biggest problem with the game. "High pop" server with only 30 people in a main hub area during peak time is ridiculous. There's usually 30 people just in the AH in Org at any given time.

In the end ToR was a second rate game played as a SP game and poor as an MMO.

[Lich_King]

Riccitiello just said that the loss of subscribers doesn't really matter because this game isn't all that important in the first place. Oh and that 1.7 million number from the last earnings wasn't a good representation but "they had a duty to report the number" so the loss isn't as bad as it looks. Guy is a total clown and I have no idea what I was thinking buying some EA options a few months ago.

Is 1.3 million a good representation now? I wonder.

Well, at least he sold his shares before all of this started.

[TheYanger]

Naw, it was a TBC clone with some quality of life changes and a dash of WotLK. Feature creep seemed to stop shortly after it was announced. It's as if everything past the first three months of WotLK was ignored.

We WISH it had wotlk in it. or even BC. Some of the design stuff is Wrath level (like copying wow's exact badge system and pvp systems of that era), but then the basic shit like quest design and combat flow are pure vanilla. Even BC had more quest variety (Bombing runs, pet control like that event in blade's edge, etc).

[neoemonk]

I liked the game well enough. But I don't want to pay a monthly fee for it. I'll be online on day one if it goes free to play.

[Draxal]

We WISH it had wotlk in it. or even BC. Some of the design stuff is Wrath level (like copying wow's exact badge system and pvp systems of that era), but then the basic shit like quest design and combat flow are pure vanilla. Even BC had more quest variety (Bombing runs, pet control like that event in blade's edge, etc).

Let's be real here, bombing runs and pet control quests are horrible, in BC, Wrath, and Cata. They tried to vary the molten front dailies, but they all pretty much suck, it's a grind that everybody hates doing. The problem is that end game TOR is (if you're not in a guild that does anything) boring dailies is pretty much all you can if you don't pvp, which is not fun for casuals and casuals are the ones quitting in droves here.

Flashpoint Design is incredibly outdated, boring trash fests that take forever to complete.

[BannedEpisode]

I cancelled my sub for the second time. I have two months of playtime because of the free month. I had activated again recently to do some PvP with my roommate but our guild broke up over some drama and the server has been dipping in population for months now.

The game was fun though. My Bounty Hunter had a cool story line and I actually liked the companions I gathered. The problem was the opposite of seemless world and lack of motivation to do anything at end game. I also kinda hate the mod system for equipment.

[TheYanger]

Let's be real here, bombing runs and pet control quests are horrible, in BC, Wrath, and Cata. They tried to vary the molten front dailies, but they all pretty much suck, it's a grind that everybody hates doing. The problem is that end game TOR is (if you're not in a guild that does anything) boring dailies is pretty much all you can if you don't pvp, which is not fun for casuals and casuals are the ones quitting in droves here. Flashpoint Design is incredibly outdated, boring trash fests that take forever to complete.

They weren't horrible when they were new. They increased quest variety. That's the whole point, ToR only has like 2 types of quests. WoW has huge variety since vanilla, and the vehicle style quests introduced in Wrath and used liberally since have increased it incredibly. ToR still has the same busted ass quests we've always had.

[Draxal]

They weren't horrible when they were new. They increased quest variety. That's the whole point, ToR only has like 2 types of quests. WoW has huge variety since vanilla, and the vehicle style quests introduced in Wrath and used liberally since have increased it incredibly. ToR still has the same busted ass quests we've always had.

They didn't accomplish variety, because they were few and far and between and mindlessly simple. You seem to be enamored with them, but they really didn't add variety and they just added a new coat to the tedium of dailies/quests, because the most varied were in BC's rep grinds and everybody hated those with a passion as well (netherwing,ogrila/skyguard).

Old Republic is facing alot of problems, but this is nitpicking.

[FieryBalrog]

Let's be real here, bombing runs and pet control quests are horrible, in BC, Wrath, and Cata. They tried to vary the molten front dailies, but they all pretty much suck, it's a grind that everybody hates doing. The problem is that end game TOR is (if you're not in a guild that does anything) boring dailies is pretty much all you can if you don't pvp, which is not fun for casuals and casuals are the ones quitting in droves here. Flashpoint Design is incredibly outdated, boring trash fests that take forever to complete.

I had more fun doing Molten Front dailies x 20 times than all the actual quests (not the voiceover) combined in TOR, which were entirely Kill X, Click X. They are pretty varied and actually fun. Sorry if that offends you.

Hell, the Molten Front dailies show your actions having a greater impact on the world than pretty much all of TOR. All of your "impact" is confined to behind little green doors.

[Wallach]

Riccitiello just said that the loss of subscribers doesn't really matter because this game isn't all that important in the first place. Oh and that 1.7 million number from the last earnings wasn't a good representation but "they had a duty to report the number" so the loss isn't as bad as it looks.

...?

...??????????????????????????????????????????????

[TheYanger]

They didn't accomplish variety, because they were few and far and between and mindlessly simple. You seem to be enamored with them, but they really didn't add variety and they just added a new coat to the tedium of dailies/quests, because the most varied were in BC's rep grinds and everybody hated those with a passion as well (netherwing,ogrila/skyguard). Old Republic is facing alot of problems, but this is nitpicking.

Are you shitting me. You're arguing against quest variety. You're saying having more quests like THIS or THIS is bad?
Bombing runs got used a lot when they were the 'new' quest type sure. And then in Wrath vehicles came in and suddenly they could make all kinds of variety with just that one bit of tech.

The first quest I linked is 6 years old. The second one is 4 years old. Star Wars quest engine literally is incapable of either. It's incapable of even the simplest shit wow had ages ago.
You can say things like this don't matter, but the fact is when you're paying to play this game and want shit to do, having VARIETY is very important. Tor lacks it in quests, it has potential in flashpoints due to the storytelling but the 'unique' aspects (the storytelling) bring minimal newness once you've seen it a couple times. The fact that MOST of the flashpoints don't even deliver on that is pretty pathetic.

[Draxal]

Are you shitting me. You're arguing against quest variety. You're saying having more quests like THIS or THIS is bad? Bombing runs got used a lot when they were the 'new' quest type sure. And then in Wrath vehicles came in and suddenly they could make all kinds of variety with just that one bit of tech. The first quest I linked is 6 years old. The second one is 4 years old. Star Wars quest engine literally is incapable of either. It's incapable of even the simplest shit wow had ages ago. You can say things like this don't matter, but the fact is when you're paying to play this game and want shit to do, having VARIETY is very important. Tor lacks it in quests, it has potential in flashpoints due to the storytelling but the 'unique' aspects (the storytelling) bring minimal newness once you've seen it a couple times. The fact that MOST of the flashpoints don't even deliver on that is pretty pathetic.

Lol, I'm not arguing against quest variety, I'm just saying it's such a trivial part of Wow, that it barely worth complaining about.

Shartuul's was cool and probably the only good example you could pull from BC. But in all honestly, I did not care about the lich king quest you linked or the storm giant one in Zul Drak, vehicle quests were used so much and poorly in other situations (the pvp scenarios). Hell, even the best example that you didn't use (Battle of Undercity/Light's Hope) got so tedious after the first time doing, it that I skipped doing it on alts. I view it as superfluous filler akin to the space battles.

There's alot more pressing issues that TOR is facing such as.

1. Shitty QA on patches, this is huge.
2. Speed of content development.
3. Lack of focus on features such as dungeon finder/dual spec especially with poor server balance.
4. Lack of anything innovative in pve (such as Rift's instant action)


Variety quests that I'd only do once are pretty low on the totem pole.

[FieryBalrog]

Some of the vehicle quests are in fact terrible like the Storm Giant one. But the variety is there if you want it.

Vashj'ir is a great example of good questing variety. The Nespirah quests, the Battlemaiden series, the other giant Ancient...

[timkunedo]

I'm really thinking about resubbing to this.

[FLEABttn]

Must be nice.

You won't find me agreeing. Cata was a step back. WotLK was my high point. TBC was only better than vanilla, and probably equal to the first 6 months of Cata, nothing more.

We WISH it had wotlk in it. or even BC. Some of the design stuff is Wrath level (like copying wow's exact badge system and pvp systems of that era), but then the basic shit like quest design and combat flow are pure vanilla. Even BC had more quest variety (Bombing runs, pet control like that event in blade's edge, etc).

To me, the dialoguing makes up for the questing variety, but I don't really disagree with that you're saying.

[Draxal]

Some of the vehicle quests are in fact terrible like the Storm Giant one. But the variety is there if you want it. Vashj'ir is a great example of good questing variety. The Nespirah quests, the Battlemaiden series, the other giant Ancient...

I actually think Vash'jir is a horrible example, pretty much everybody hates Vash'jir and does Hyjal instead, because it's hamstrung by a gimmick just like Oculus and to a lesser extent Malygos. Mind you I also despised a decent amount of quests in Wow that I find nothing comparable in Old Republic, I think the Harrison Jones in Uldum was horribly done, and I thought Thrall event with Firelands was such a stinker.

[Perfect Cha0s]

I'm probably in the minority here, but I far prefer the standard "Kill x" or "Gather y" quests to the "unique" vehicle and bombing quests. I like playing my character and using him in combat. Visual diversity is far more important, IMO. It doesn't matter what kind of quest I'm doing; if I'm looking at the same environment for drawn out periods of time, I'm gonna get bored.

I think it's for this reason that BC was my favorite. Aside from starting off rather drab with Hellfire Peninsula, the zone diversity was great. Cata has diversity as well, but Twilight Highlands, Deepholme, and Uldum (to a lesser extent; I'm just not big on desert zones), to me, have some of that drabness that HFP had.

I thought TOR was pretty nice, in that regard. I had fun leveling, but it didn't have the endgame to keep me there. Not that I expected it to right out of the gate. Provided it stays afloat and keeps cranking out content, I'll probably go back sometime in the future. Right now I'm looking forward to Mists since I adore the Asian-inspired art.

Time will tell, though.

[Berordn]

I actually think Vash'jir is a horrible example, pretty much everybody hates Vash'jir and does Hyjal instead, because it's hamstrung by a gimmick just like Oculus and to a lesser extent Malygos.

Only reason I go through Hyjal over Vash'jir is to gain access to Thrall's lame event and the Molten Front. If not for that, I'd be going Vash every time. It's got way more going on in one zone than the rest of the expansion had in its entirety. The water is a non-issue, since it's just "flying" through the zone like you were doing everywhere else anyway.

Hyjal is also a bit more streamlined, so that has something to do with it too, I'm sure.

[bjb]

I enjoyed Vash'jir a lot too.

Swtor doesn't have a single zone in the game that even compares to it. Every single planet feels static and dull.

I will say, however, I did enjoy the look of Nar Shadda I guess.

[timkunedo]

I really hope it does end up going free to play. I spend more money of FTP games than i do sub based games. :/

[Filth]

400,001

[∀ Narayan]

should have just made KOTOR 3

Yep. Would be amazing to see a KoTOR game with gameplay similar to KoTOR 1 and 2, but in the Ronin (Force Unleashed) engine.

[Draxal]

Only reason I go through Hyjal over Vash'jir is to gain access to Thrall's lame event and the Molten Front. If not for that, I'd be going Vash every time. It's got way more going on in one zone than the rest of the expansion had in its entirety. The water is a non-issue, since it's just "flying" through the zone like you were doing everywhere else anyway. Hyjal is also a bit more streamlined, so that has something to do with it too, I'm sure.

I do think the water's still an issue as it is a different type of combat than normal (only non underwater combat that was similiar was Kael'thas). But you are definitely right about the pacing, Hyjal's is alot faster then Vash.

[SatelliteOfLove]

Some of the vehicle quests are in fact terrible like the Storm Giant one. But the variety is there if you want it. Vashj'ir is a great example of good questing variety. The Nespirah quests, the Battlemaiden series, the other giant Ancient...

This is the one thing WoW has consistantly gotten better at the last 7 years: more and more interesting quest concepts. Vash'jir, however, is a terrifyingly long questchain that is only good doing once to make the old Horde Ony attunement feel short in comparison and show off how vain and up his own ass Chris Metzen has become.

[Jangocube]

It was just too much like WoW for me. I really liked it at first, but I just couldn't make it to max level. The grind was very boring. Very WoW-like.

[keltickennedy]

Yep. Would be amazing to see a KoTOR game with gameplay similar to KoTOR 1 and 2, but in the Ronin (Force Unleashed) engine.

I would like to see a new KOTOR game similar to Mass Effect. Of course the combat would be different.

[jaundicejuice]

It was my first MMO and I only lasted two months, I think, if even that. One of my biggest complaints was just trying to get a group with a proper class loadout to play through the flashpoints was a giant pain in the ass, nevermind the world boss fights. I started playing TOR with a group of friends, some lost interest, the rest simply couldn't all get on at roughly the same time. I just ended up solo'ing what I could, even flashpoints. It just sucked trying to do pick up groups, no one used the LFG list, they just spammed in chat. I think if there had been a better system in place, like one that let you queue for a group, while you solo'd, I'd still be playing.

Also the game felt incredibly front loaded with content, by the third or fourth world everything felt stretched out and thin. I rolled a couple of different characters, just to try different roles, classes and factions and always got bored once I hit Tatooine and the few worlds beyond. It was more fun starting a character and going through the first twenty or so levels.

[Salz01]

I thought it was time for me to quit, when I didn't want to be in the zones/ planets or whatever longer than two hours. Then when I got to the next one, I felt myself trying to get out and having no other option. The whole game feels like a chore.

[Pollux]

I would like to see a new KOTOR game similar to Mass Effect. Of course the combat would be different.

I'll take anything at this point...The ME3 ending was just as much of a cluster fuck as KOTOR 2's ending...so it's not like Bioware can do any worse.

[DTKT]

Dear god.

I would give anything for KOTOR 3.

:(

[FieryBalrog]

I actually think Vash'jir is a horrible example, pretty much everybody hates Vash'jir and does Hyjal instead

Yeah, some of my friends are like this. But frankly people who hate Vashj'ir and do Hyjal instead have no imagination and suck. Vashj'ir is breathtaking in scenery and imagination and it is also very easy to navigate and quest in. There were some problems at launch (I was there) but it smoothed out pretty fast.

because it's hamstrung by a gimmick just like Oculus and to a lesser extent Malygos. Mind you I also despised a decent amount of quests in Wow that I find nothing comparable in Old Republic, I think the Harrison Jones in Uldum was horribly done, and I thought Thrall event with Firelands was such a stinker.

Good for you.

I enjoyed Vash'jir a lot too. Swtor doesn't have a single zone in the game that even compares to it. Every single planet feels static and dull. I will say, however, I did enjoy the look of Nar Shadda I guess.

So much of SWTOR's zones are just fake background art that is not an actual structure in the world. Like Nar Shadda, or many others for that matter. It's a good looking zone but it doesn't feel like a real city, just like in other Bioware games it feels like you're in a few corridors with a fake city facade around you. They've never been good with that. KOTOR 1 was particularly terrible in that regard, at least Tatooine in this game is 1000x better than Tatooine in KOTOR 1.

[FieryBalrog]

This is the one thing WoW has consistantly gotten better at the last 7 years: more and more interesting quest concepts. Vash'jir, however, is a terrifyingly long questchain that is only good doing once to make the old Horde Ony attunement feel short in comparison and show off how vain and up his own ass Chris Metzen has become.

I have very little patience for most of WoW's bad-to-awful storytelling, but Vashj'ir was an exception (so was Ulduar/Storm Peaks) because the gameplay reflected and synched beautifully with the events that were occurring. The disconnect between the two is a common problem in games and even more so in MMOs. So even though the story in Vashj'ir is not that amazing, it's just told really well.