[El-Suave]

I'm glad the gaming public doesn't seem to support their logic of where the money is to be made.
All those KOTOR sequels they could have sold to me. :-(

[Zinga]

Nothing wrong with these MMO numbers imo, in fact they are quite healthy! losing subs after a launch has happened to every major mmo except for WoW in the past 10 years, but if SWTOR can improve their PvE and PvP content significantly at end game, I see no reason why it can't maintain 1 million subscribers for its lifetime. Once they launch in China/Korea and other asian countries like WoW did I am sure that they will gain a few hundred thousand subscribers.

[Lime]

I like it when creatively bankrupt massive blockbuster games do not perform as what their huge budget demands. Gives a pretty good incitement for developers to actually make something worthwhile and innovative on a smaller budget.

[Tellaerin]

That's a weird way of saying it was better than 1 in every way. It just didn't have the OMG PLOT TWIST!! that 1 had.

Um, no. KotOR2 fell apart at the end thanks to its rushed development cycle - the endgame truly sucked. (On a more personal, completely subjective note, I also felt it didn't capture the atmosphere and charm of the original SW movie trilogy as well as KotOR did. The tone skewed further toward the grim and gritty, which I know some people loved, but it just didn't feel as Star Wars-y to me.)

Don't want to derail this too much, but I wanted to get that out there.

[Zefah]

Eh Tera came out, and lot of players have been jumping into Betas of other games. We had a bunch of Guildies leave to play in betas for MoP (which has almost a million players), D3, Tera, Firefall, and now Secret World. Competition is crazy and D3 full release is going to eat up people

Tera just came out. It's also not going to be a huge MMORPG--probably smaller than even Aion.

Diablo 3, Guild Wars 2, Secret World, and Mists of Pandaria will all be out between now and the time this game hits its first anniversary. It's fucked. It's already bleeding subs and that's only going to accelerate as more persistent online games come out.

I do believe there hasn't been a single MMORPG in history to reverse a downward trend in subscriptions. I highly doubt SWTOR will be the first to do so.

[BigDug13]

Tell me how much EQ took to develop and then we can compare that number with how much TOR cost. I'm not saying that TOR won't be profitable, but you are comparing two very different products.

Not sure, but isn't TOR asking for $15 per month? EQ asked for $10. Didn't TOR sell nearly 2 million copies of the game for $50 a pop? That's 100 million in sales alone.

How much did this game cost to make exactly?

[sillymonkey321]

I like it when creatively bankrupt massive blockbuster games do not perform as what their huge budget demands. Gives a pretty good incitement for developers to actually make something worthwhile and innovative on a smaller budget.

Too many used gamer accounts, if we got rid of the used market, KOTOR MMO would thrive.

[BattleMonkey]

Not sure, but isn't TOR asking for $15 per month? EQ asked for $10. Didn't TOR sell nearly 2 million copies of the game for $50 a pop? That's 100 million in sales alone. How much did this game cost to make exactly?

Budget was 200 mil likely not accounting for marketing. It did over 2.2mil last we heard on sales, its probably sold more since and theres been sales too so who knows. But not all of it is profit either from boxed sales or subs, they got alot of other costs to cover and only get a portion of boxed sales

[FieryBalrog]

The sad thing is this number is presumably current, which means it's padded to hell by the free month they handed out to most of their current subscriber base.

[Zefah]

Not sure, but isn't TOR asking for $15 per month? EQ asked for $10. Didn't TOR sell nearly 2 million copies of the game for $50 a pop? That's 100 million in sales alone. How much did this game cost to make exactly?

$100 million in sales does not equal $100 in revenue to Bioware/EA.

EQ started at $10 per month, but they increased gradually over time, and I'm pretty sure SOE was charging $12 or $15 by the time the game peaked.

[sixteen-bit]

How does this compare to SWG?

[Cipherr]

400k is a large percentage of the 1.7m they had back in Feb, thats the problem.

And WoW is in the midst of a pure content drought. Guild Wars 2, Diablo 3, Mists of Pandaria along with this natural slimming of subs is going to reak havok on this games ability to grow this number from this point onward.

They may be able to find a way to stabilize amongst all these new games and expansions dropping, but growth? Shiiiiiiiiiiiit, thats not going to be easy at all.

[BigDug13]

Didn't help that my server, even though a medium one, felt like a fucking graveyard.

That's a huge problem with these games too. They make too many servers for the load of people, which leaves every server feeling a bit empty. City of Heroes was bad about this with only 2 servers really worth playing on and I think their list had like 10 servers, so 80% of the servers were ghost towns and they refused to consolidate due to the character name problems.

Planetside was the same way.

It seems like it's worth waiting a month or two to let a couple necessary patches to be released and to figure out which servers are rocking the player community.

[Thoraxes]

How does this compare to SWG?

One was an MMO the other is a single-player game with an online community.

[Zefah]

That's a huge problem with these games too. They make too many servers for the load of people, which leaves every server feeling a bit empty. City of Heroes was bad about this with only 2 servers really worth playing on and I think their list had like 10 servers, so 80% of the servers were ghost towns and they refused to consolidate due to the character name problems. Planetside was the same way. It seems like it's worth waiting a month or two to let a couple necessary patches to be released and to figure out which servers are rocking the player community.

It's especially a problem in SWTOR because they made needlessly massive areas (I assume to support large numbers of players), and then set up their instancing so no more than 100 people or so are ever in the same instance of a zone.

[Lime]

Too many used gamer accounts, if we got rid of the used market, KOTOR MMO would thrive.

I know, right?! Better put some more DRM on that game, before all the used gamers kill the entire industry (i.e. EA)! While we're at it, add some online passes on it and remove 30% of the original content to be Day-1 on-disc DLC. And if the game is still in the red, close the DRM servers, and make them buy next year's rushed entry. And just send every customer this video with John Ricitello giving a thumbs up to the camera while saying:

On May 8th, THE OLD REPUBLIC will no longer be playable on any device. Thanks for rocking out with us!

[.la1n]

[kevm3]

Seems like all these developers thought 'subscription model' gaming was the way to go, but looking at how a lot of these MMORPGs can lose such a large chunk of users, they may have to reconsider.

[StudioTan]

The sad thing is this number is presumably current, which means it's padded to hell by the free month they handed out to most of their current subscriber base.

No, the number is from March 31st so it doesn't include the free month.

They also just launched the game in 30+ new countries in the past couple of weeks and those numbers are not included.

[Myomoto]

KOTOR 2 was shit.

I want to fight you.

[Schweinehund]

Class story was fantastics, but after that was over I saw little reason to play. The combat system wasn't as fleshed out as wow and I already got most of the good gear through pvp.

I'm sure I'll resub when they do an expansion or expand the class story more.

Also alignment being near meaningless didn't help my experience either. Wanted black robes on my jedi shadow.

[mysteriousmage09]

One was an MMO the other is a single-player game with an online community.

Perfect.

[PatzCU]

I would say this will probably be the last of the WoW clones we see for a long time, but we're going to have to watch the Elder Scrolls MMO crash and burn first.

[antonz]

No, the number is from March 31st so it doesn't include the free month. They also just launched the game in 30+ new countries in the past couple of weeks and those numbers are not included.

Indeed. I doesnt include any resubs from 1.2, new region launches etc. That said They have work to do but its no where near the doom and gloom people are saying

[StudioTan]

How does this compare to SWG?

SWG never had more than 500k subs. That was before the NGE which basically killed the game.

Indeed. I doesnt include any resubs from 1.2, new region launches etc. That said They have work to do but its no where near the doom and gloom people are saying

There are only 2 western MMOs that have had over 1 million subs. WoW and SWTOR.

[Jason's Ultimatum]

I want to fight you.

It wasn't shit by any means, but the first game is still superior. The OST, atmosphere, and levels are far superior than the sequel.

[mysteriousmage09]

SWG never had more than 500k subs. That was before the NGE which basically killed the game. There are only 2 western MMOs that have had over 1 millions. WoW and SWTOR.

The MMO market sure as shit wasn't anywhere near as big as it was a decade ago either.

[StudioTan]

The MMO market sure as shit wasn't anywhere near as big as it was a decade ago either.

There was much less competition. SWG wasn't competing with WoW or EQ2 when it launched.

[Jomjom]

It's especially a problem in SWTOR because they made needlessly massive areas (I assume to support large numbers of players), and then set up their instancing so no more than 100 people or so are ever in the same instance of a zone.

The zones are designed horribly. I've literally fallen asleep about 10 times while travelling on my speeder through any of the zones after you get a speeder. When I wake up, most of the time I've died as a result of falling a thousand feet off a cliff or running into some trash mob.

[Lebron]

Give it another year before F2P, that's when I'll pounce.

[BigDug13]

Budget was 200 mil likely not accounting for marketing. It did over 2.2mil last we heard on sales, its probably sold more since and theres been sales too so who knows. But not all of it is profit either from boxed sales or subs, they got alot of other costs to cover and only get a portion of boxed sales

Really? 200 million? Is this game that vast? Did the actors from The Avengers do all the voice acting?

[antonz]

The MMO market sure as shit wasn't anywhere near as big as it was a decade ago either.

The western MMO market hasnt grown that much. At this point SWTOR is 1/3- almost 1/2 WoWs western Numbers. And its those western numbers where blizzard makes the majority of their money.

[ArjanN]

First post wins this round. Though to be fair, selling 2 million copies at full price and then slowly bleeding subscribers probably still makes them more money than selling 3-4 million of a hypothetical KOTOR 3.

Don't forget eventually going free to play and then selling a shitton of items for real money!

Yeah, I think most of the MMOs that are considered failures here probably still made a lot of money. Otherwise why would they keep making them?

[wienke]

The good news for people who still play TOR is that the development costs are a sunk cost so EA isn't going to shut down TOR because they can't recapture their investment. They'll only shut it down if they can use those resources more efficiently elsewhere or it's not actively making money.

I'm expecting dramatic knee-jerk game changes from EA. I'm hoping for controlled Blizzard-like improvements to bring a new MMO up to par with WoW.

I think we all know which one we're more likely to get.

[Rokal]

No, the number is from March 31st so it doesn't include the free month.

It's not clear if this is the case. The last number they gave us (1.7 million) was on March 9th. The Q4 earnings call only describes there being "1.3 million active subscriptions". It sounds like the 1.3 million number is current, not from March 31st. If that's true, the number is padded by the promotion.

[BattleMonkey]

It's especially a problem in SWTOR because they made needlessly massive areas (I assume to support large numbers of players), and then set up their instancing so no more than 100 people or so are ever in the same instance of a zone.

Even at launch on full servers instances rarely reached 100 or did we see multiple planet instances outside of the starting planet, which had a lower than 100 threshold. The instance limits really had no effect on the game since they almost never were reached even at peak usage of the game at launch. It's more of just how they set up the planets and leveling that hurt the game.

The good news for people who still play TOR is that the development costs are a sunk cost so EA isn't going to shut down TOR because they can't recapture their investment. They'll only shut it down if they can use those resources more efficiently elsewhere or it's not actively making money. I'm expecting dramatic knee-jerk game changes from EA. I'm hoping for controlled Blizzard-like improvements to bring a new MMO up to par with WoW. I think we all know which one we're more likely to get.

With the massive investment, they wont drop the game any time soon, they will do whatever they have to to keep money coming in, even if it means eventual going f2p or some kind of content model

[ZombieSupaStar]

Wait, wtf. I didn't know the restoration mod was actually released. I'm ashamed.

what is even more hilarious is it wasnt even Team Gizka (that did a whole lot of nothing it seems over the years) but another mod team that came along and did it.

[Myomoto]

It's not clear if this is the case. The last number they gave us (1.7 million) was on March 9th. The Q4 earnings call only describes there being "1.3 million active subscriptions". It sounds like the 1.3 million number is current, not from March 31st. If that's true, the number is padded by the promotion.

Didn't you have to buy a month of subscription to actually receive the free month, though?

[dLMN8R]

The MMO market sure as shit wasn't anywhere near as big as it was a decade ago either.

How do you define that "the MMO market wasn't as big"?

It seems like in this case, "the MMO market" means just World of Warcraft, right? Since if SWTOR is the 2nd-biggest MMO ever, yet it's not big enough to align with "the MMO market", that seems a little backwards, does it not?


Much like how a single outlier - Call of Duty - has warped everyone's perceptions of what a shooter must be to be considered successful, it also seems like World of Warcraft has warped everyone's perceptions of what an MMO must be to be successful.

[Zefah]

Even at launch on full servers instances rarely reached 100 or did we see multiple planet instances outside of the starting planet, which had a lower than 100 threshold. The instance limits really had no effect on the game since they almost never were reached even at peak usage of the game at launch. It's more of just how they set up the planets and leveling that hurt the game.

I just remember my experience at launch where the tutorial planet + capital planet would have 4 or 5 instances at prime time on my server, each one of them a ghost town because of how massive the environments were.

There are only 2 western MMOs that have had over 1 million subs. WoW and SWTOR.

Paying subscriptions? Sure. I think Conan had more than 1 million accounts during its first month, though.

[krameriffic]

I quit after renewing for one month and getting a couple of characters into their 20s. My original server was having a bad population drop and now apparently my newer server which very high at the time is at the same level my original server was when I left it. I'm surprised they only lost 400k to be honest.

Yes. I gauge games by their popularity on Twitch.tv/Justin.tv. And where SWTOR used to have tons of popular streamers showing it and thousands of viewers, they've all but disappeared. It's just depressing when Towelliee jumps into it. The Crucible Pits, which had about a thousand people on Republic in Ruin Gaming alone and a similar number in Dara Mactire on Empire, is all but dead. It was one of the top 5 servers not 3 months ago. And this is post-1.2.

Everything I hear point to virtually every server being a ghost town except for probably about 10-15 of them. I don't know a single friend of mine who still plays it. Sad, but not unexpected.

[TheSeks]

Save this thread and replace the title with Elder Scrolls Online when it's time. :p

/v/'s already named that atlanTES. Which goes with the whole under the sea motif.

Really, TES is asking for it with the Hero engine. They've seen TORtanic and should've asked themselves. "WTF ARE WE THINKING!?"

[Gez]

f2p incoming

I think EA would just pull an Anthony Anderson and burn this motha fucka down (points to you if you get the reference). You only have to look at Warhammer Online and All Points Bulletin.

[antonz]

Yes. I gauge games by their popularity on Twitch.tv/Justin.tv. And where SWTOR used to have tons of popular streamers showing it and thousands of viewers, they've all but disappeared. It's just depressing when Towelliee jumps into it. The Crucible Pits, which had about a thousand people on Republic in Ruin Gaming alone and a similar number in Dara Mactire on Empire, is all but dead. It was one of the top 5 servers not 3 months ago. And this is post-1.2. Everything I hear point to virtually every server being a ghost town except for probably about 10-15 of them. I don't know a single friend of mine who still plays it. Sad, but not unexpected.

Ruin left their server and mass emigrated to The Fatman

[Stallion Free]

Really, TES is asking for it with the Hero engine. They've seen TORtanic and should've asked themselves. "WTF ARE WE THINKING!?"

Yeah, the second I heard Hero engine when my friend was reading off the preview to a group of us, I lost any interest I could have had (which wasn't much).

[Rokal]

Didn't you have to buy a month of subscription to actually receive the free month, though?

No, if you were already a subscriber but met the requirements for the promotion you'd also receive a free month even if your subscription otherwise would have expired soon.

The free time given to existing subscribers and the temptation of buy one month, get one month free for previous subscribers is what inflates these numbers (unless they actually are from March 31st, which is doubtful given their last press release date).

[StudioTan]

How do you define that "the MMO market wasn't as big"? It seems like in this case, "the MMO market" means just World of Warcraft, right? Since if SWTOR is the 2nd-biggest MMO ever, yet it's not big enough to align with "the MMO market", that seems a little backwards, does it not? Much like how a single outlier - Call of Duty - has warped everyone's perceptions of what a shooter must be to be considered successful, it also seems like World of Warcraft has warped everyone's perceptions of what an MMO must be to be successful.

Just to clarify, it's the second biggest NA launched MMO. A few Asian MMOs have have had much bigger sub numbers. I think Aion was over 4 million subs at one point.

Paying subscriptions? Sure. I think Conan had more than 1 million accounts during its first month, though.

If you count the included 30 days, yes. I think they had over a million box sales in the first month. I played it at launch though and it was a mess.

Let's keep in mind that SWTOR launched with over 200 servers, and over 100 for NA alone. Conan currently has 4 NA servers.

[FieryBalrog]

No, the number is from March 31st so it doesn't include the free month. They also just launched the game in 30+ new countries in the past couple of weeks and those numbers are not included.

Yeah, countries like Afghanistan and Moldova. Incoming huge subscriber wave.

You can't make this shit up. We're launching in Afghanistan, guys!

[Lime]

How long did it take for EA to pull "proper" support of Warhammer: Online and downsize the servers? And how long did Mythic last before they were axed/merged into Bioware? Not saying it's going to happen to Bioware, just curious.

[krameriffic]

Much like how a single outlier - Call of Duty - has warped everyone's perceptions of what a shooter must be to be considered successful, it also seems like World of Warcraft has warped everyone's perceptions of what an MMO must be to be successful.

Most of those shooters don't have the budget, the IP, the time, the talent, the marketing or anything to make it even possible for them to challenge it. The Battlefield franchise is the only one close, and it's done quite well with its last few releases. It's popularity is also tied to a different type of market (consoles) and a different type of strategy with its yearly full game releases.

SWTOR, with the Bioware and Star Wars pedigree, huge development and marketing budget and ~5 years of development time was very clearly targeting WoW, and it missed for a number of reasons. The biggest one is a misunderstanding of the MMO market. Yeah, it's got fundamental gameplay issues, performance issues and design issues, but I don't think that's really what stopped it. Why would people who have invested thousands of hours into WoW, people who feel tied to that character, utterly obligated to keep playing it switch to SWTOR?

There is nothing about SWTOR to pull people away from WoW unless you really, REALLY like Star Wars or copious amounts of mediocre voice acting for some reason. It doesn't do anything BETTER than WoW. Most things, it actually does worse. And to strip people who feel such loyalty to WoW away from it, you need to have something really special to pull them away. SWTOR doesn't have it.