[OmnipotentO]

I prefer to think of the game as the makers developed it a "party brawler". Cannot turn a blind eye to developer intent. That's what it's meant to be: a sort of party brawler with full on items and a timer and wacky levels. That is the REAL Smash. The popular "fighter" mode the community is centered around is more of a "mod". That part of Smash is the game within the game, not the game itself. Not the game as it was intended. That's how I think of it at least... nothing more than a sort of pseudo mod. Which is fine. You can have a competitive community based around almost anything and that doesn't make the experiences and the games and the hype any less valuable.

So I really think we're talking about two different things here: the game as a whole vs the game within the game or what I like to call the "fighter" mode. The game as a whole is intended to be wacky and random and Sakurai's stated he wants to make it for casual gamers. Sort of an extension to Mario Karts and the Mario Parties so on.

[KevinCow]

They had me until the Brawl whine-fest at the end. Ugh, give it a rest, it's a significantly better game.

Gotta love Melee whiners.

They scream and cry and bitch and argue about how the fighting game community is a bunch of jerks and Melee is totally a competitive fighting game.

Then they turn around and try to discredit Brawl with the same arguments and complaints the fighting game community used against Melee.

[MNC]

This thread reminds me of a buncha kids arguing over which band fits into which obscure Rock n Roll subgenre. NO BRO, ITS TOTALLY AMBIENT DOOMGAZE. NO YOU'RE WRONG, ITS DEFINITELY AMBIENT THRASH-CORE WITH SUBTLE DUB-STEP INFLUENCES. I myself think we should have very broad genres and a few sub-genres underneath those and leave it at that. Keep it simple. A genre should give you a basic description of how the game plays. Forget all the details. So in that case Brawl is a Fighting Game. If you want a distinct genre call it a 2D Arena Fighter. Party Fighter is fucking stupid though. What does that EVEN MEAN?

Ambient doomgaze is a fucking subgenre? Are you kidding me?

[Emitan]

I prefer to think of the game as the makers developed it a "party brawler". Cannot turn a blind eye to developer intent. That's what it's meant to be: a sort of party brawler with full on items and a timer and wacky levels. That is the REAL Smash. The popular "fighter" mode the community is centered around is more of a "mod". That part of Smash is the game within the game, not the game itself. Not the game as it was intended. That's how I think of it at least... nothing more than a sort of pseudo mod. Which is fine. You can have a competitive community based around almost anything and that doesn't make the experiences and the games and the hype any less valuable. So I really think we're talking about two different things here: the game as a whole vs the game within the game or what I like to call the "fighter" mode. The game as a whole is intended to be wacky and random and Sakurai's stated he wants to make it for casual gamers. Sort of an extension to Mario Karts and the Mario Parties so on.

Fiddling with the options menu is a mod? Seriously?

[CoffeeJanitor]

This thread reminds me of a buncha kids arguing over which band fits into which obscure Rock n Roll subgenre. NO BRO, ITS TOTALLY AMBIENT DOOMGAZE. NO YOU'RE WRONG, ITS DEFINITELY AMBIENT THRASH-CORE WITH SUBTLE DUB-STEP INFLUENCES. I myself think we should have very broad genres and a few sub-genres underneath those and leave it at that. Keep it simple. A genre should give you a basic description of how the game plays. Forget all the details. So in that case Brawl is a Fighting Game. If you want a distinct genre call it a 2D Arena Fighter. Party Fighter is fucking stupid though. What does that EVEN MEAN?

Thats a great example. At some point you're mature enough to just say 'who cares? Its fun.'

[Criminal Upper]

Kage is actually a really nice guy, even if he looks funny bald. And if you couldn't tell, the ending was obviously a lighthearted joke. They highlighted plenty of Brawl players throughout the vid (see: Ally, Mikehaze) so I'd say the message was pretty inclusive as a whole.

Yeah, that's what we were going for. Thanks for noticing!

Shame there's a number of people who are calling us WHINERS on either side, Brawl or Melee. Jeez, some take Smash WAY too seriously. lol

[darkpaladinmfc]

Gotta love Melee whiners. They scream and cry and bitch and argue about how the fighting game community is a bunch of jerks and Melee is totally a competitive fighting game. Then they turn around and try to discredit Brawl with the same arguments and complaints the fighting game community used against Melee.

Anyone who thinks Melee is a fighting game would say Brawl is one as well... It's just not as good of a fighting game.

[OmnipotentO]

Fiddling with the options menu is a mod? Seriously?

Hence the quotes in "mod". Obviously, it's not literally a mod since you're using the in-game options. My point is games with a high degree of variability/options will result in a variety of sub-games (like mods) and THOSE may be competitive. Think stuff like Little Big Planet, Starcraft/warcraft map editors, racing game race track editors, so on. Of course, to a way lesser degree in Smash but still, the options in Smash are quite extensive. So like I said we're talking about 2 different things here: the game vs the game within the game or what I call the "fighter mode".

[EmCeeGramr]

Sakurai has totally said that Smash 64 and Melee's depth were intentionally designed, and that he purposefully changed Brawl. The "Nintendo never wanted it to be more than a party game" idea is just projecting.

[Dacvak]

I don't care if you want to call it a fighting game or a party game, but at the highest competitive level, Smash (Melee) is a much more complicated and difficult game than any other Capcom fighter. Most Capcom fighting games at that level rely heavily on reaction speed and perfect input commands, whereas Smash heavily relies on mindgames. That's my opinion at least.

I think it's silly to discount Smash as a fighting game. What's Power Stone considered?

[crimzonflame]

I don't care if you want to call it a fighting game or a party game, but at the highest competitive level, Smash (Melee) is a much more complicated and difficult game than any other Capcom fighter. Most Capcom fighting games at that level rely heavily on reaction speed and perfect input commands, whereas Smash heavily relies on mindgames. That's my opinion at least. I think it's silly to discount Smash as a fighting game. What's Power Stone considered?

High level play is nothing but mind games. Reaction and inputs are barriers to entries.

[udivision]

I do like fighting the other player more than fighting the controls.

[Interficium]

I don't care if you want to call it a fighting game or a party game, but at the highest competitive level, Smash (Melee) is a much more complicated and difficult game than any other Capcom fighter. Most Capcom fighting games at that level rely heavily on reaction speed and perfect input commands, whereas Smash heavily relies on mindgames. That's my opinion at least. I think it's silly to discount Smash as a fighting game. What's Power Stone considered?

By this logic the most complicated and difficult fighting game is Jeopardy!

Trust me when I tell you "high level" players at Capcom fighting games really aren't relying on their reaction speed and input commands any more. That's a concern for novices.

[KevinCow]

Anyone who thinks Melee is a fighting game would say Brawl is one as well... It's just not as good of a fighting game.

And yet, that contradicts nothing that I said.

FGC on Melee: "It can't be a competitive fighting game because it's too much of a party game!"

Melee whiners on Brawl: "It can't be a competitive fighting game because it's too much of a party game!"

[Byronic Hero]

When the next title is released, I really wonder if the SSB fanbase will be split again.

It's a game, it's only as important as you make it. Don't complain or make arguments, either play it or don't. That's my philosophy anyway.

[SamVimes]

I don't care if you want to call it a fighting game or a party game, but at the highest competitive level, Smash (Melee) is a much more complicated and difficult game than any other Capcom fighter. Most Capcom fighting games at that level rely heavily on reaction speed and perfect input commands, whereas Smash heavily relies on mindgames. That's my opinion at least.

Oh, so that's how a wrong opinion look.
Watch an high level SF IV match and tell me it's just about execution and reaction.

[Crewnh]

People find party fighter insulting? Really? I thought it was good way to describe the blend of craziness that happens beyond player control and the skill that comes with it being a fighter. But okay, fine, it's just a fighting game. I hope that makes you enjoy it more now I guess?

[Justin Timberlake]

I prefer to think of the game as the makers developed it a "party brawler". Cannot turn a blind eye to developer intent. That's what it's meant to be: a sort of party brawler with full on items and a timer and wacky levels. That is the REAL Smash. The popular "fighter" mode the community is centered around is more of a "mod". That part of Smash is the game within the game, not the game itself. Not the game as it was intended. That's how I think of it at least... nothing more than a sort of pseudo mod. Which is fine. You can have a competitive community based around almost anything and that doesn't make the experiences and the games and the hype any less valuable. So I really think we're talking about two different things here: the game as a whole vs the game within the game or what I like to call the "fighter" mode. The game as a whole is intended to be wacky and random and Sakurai's stated he wants to make it for casual gamers. Sort of an extension to Mario Karts and the Mario Parties so on.

Common misconception. ->

-there are 4 different versions of Melee. 1.0, 1.1, 1.2, and PAL. The differences between PAL and the rest is significant; major balance changes include buffs to the low tiers (Kirby run speed, Yoshi's everything, etc) and nerfs to the top tiers (Fox weaker usmash, Falco/Marth down-airs no longer spike, Sheik down-throw combos are worse, etc). PAL came after NTSC so it is commonly thought that the developers made these changes between releases.

-the developers' debug mode (accessible with action replay) is very revealing. Certain game mechanics, like L-cancelling and wavedashing, are given special markers and indicators when their animation starts. Very specific things, like a characters hurtboxes, hitboxes, ledgegrab boxes, invulnerability frames, and more are accurately depicted. The debug mode, which is now used as a sandbox by advanced players to test game mechanics, was presumably used by the devs to modify game mechanics.

-numerous interviews with Sakurai indicate that he had a very hands-on and deliberate approach to game balance. He remarks that he worked tirelessly (all night, and into the weekend) making small changes here and there in the games mechanics and for every character.

-simply playing the game at a high level will tell you that there is a guiding hand at work. Everything from ledgegrab regrab times, respawn invincibility frames, tech roll/getup lengths and invulnerabilities, walltech and walljump mechanics...everything is done perfectly. If one frame was off for any one of these things, many cheap and broken strategies could have been developed.

Melee was made with competitive play in mind. To what extent, it is hard to say, but it is definitely there. You can't just make a game like Melee completely on accident. Now, I think that they wanted a fun party game as well, but that was part of their philosophy: easy to pick up, very, very hard (impossible) to master.

I'm sure the developers couldn't envision what advanced Melee would look like, but they had a hand in the fundamentals. I think the majority of competitive games are like that though, so I'm not sure Melee is much of an exception.

[BGBW]

-there are 4 different versions of Melee. 1.0, 1.1, 1.2, and PAL. The differences between PAL and the rest is significant; major balance changes include buffs to the low tiers (Kirby run speed, Yoshi's everything, etc) and nerfs to the top tiers (Fox weaker usmash, Falco/Marth down-airs no longer spike, Sheik down-throw combos are worse, etc). PAL came after NTSC so it is commonly thought that the developers made these changes between releases.

This kind of annoyed me since tips like using Yoshi to get a good score in the homerun contest didn't work as well in the PAL version.

Never did get the Paper Mario trophy. :(

[Anth0ny]

And yet, that contradicts nothing that I said. FGC on Melee: "It can't be a competitive fighting game because it's too much of a party game!" Melee whiners on Brawl: "It can't be a competitive fighting game because it's too much of a party game!"

Wrong.

It has nothing to do with being a party game. Brawl is not a party game. It just sucks.

If Melee is Street Fighter IV, Brawl is Street Fighter x Tekken. The same way the FGC thinks that game is boring, full of time outs, and unbalanced is the way the Melee community feels about Brawl.

I'll say it again: no one thinks Brawl is more of a "party game" than Melee. It just lacks depth.

[Brobzoid]

fighting game is a lie

[BGBW]

So Smash is an action game. Pack your bags folks. We're done.

[Hot Coldman]

yeah well what do pc gamers know

[Emitan]

So Smash is an action game. Pack your bags folks. We're done.

almost every game is an action game!

yeah well what do pc gamers know

We know how to build robots. It's like a computer but with lasers.

[synt4x]

This thread is giving me a headache...

Edit: Wait. Brawl "sucks"? Wow.

[ihearthawthats]

Melee was made with competitive play in mind. To what extent, it is hard to say, but it is definitely there. You can't just make a game like Melee completely on accident. Now, I think that they wanted a fun party game as well, but that was part of their philosophy: easy to pick up, very, very hard (impossible) to master.

by accident... and the game that practically created and defined the fighting game genre as we know it, street fighter 2, had many "accidents" in it according to quite a few people.

[Metal B]

Melee was made with competitive play in mind. To what extent, it is hard to say, but it is definitely there. You can't just make a game like Melee completely on accident. Now, I think that they wanted a fun party game as well, but that was part of their philosophy: easy to pick up, very, very hard (impossible) to master.

To support your point. Sakurai is a big fan of fighting games and he developed Smash Brothers especially to change the fighting game forumlar, because he didn't like the combo concept:

2. Disassembly and Reassembly
http://www.nintendo.co.uk/NOE/en_GB/...49150.html#top

[ihearthawthats]

To support your point. Sakurai is a big fan of fighting games and he developed Smash Brothers especially to change the fighting game forumlar, because he didn't like the combo concept:

if you change a game too much though, should it still be considered a fighting game? if the changes are significant enough, should it not be called something else?

[Justin Timberlake]

by accident... and the game that practically created and defined the fighting game genre as we know it, street fighter 2, had many "accidents" in it according to quite a few people.

I'm sure some of it was by accident. Maybe they didn't know you could jump cancel grabs, stickywalk, shield stop, etc.

But the mechanics, balance, and fluidity of the game were clearly tested, measured, and tweaked during development. Not only have the developers clearly said that, but we have access to the debug mode which they used to do so.

[Gravijah]

if you change a game too much though, should it still be considered a fighting game? if the changes are significant enough, should it not be called something else?

but they didn't fundamentally change it into something else. it wasn't changed into a racing game, an rpg or something like that, it's still a fighting game.