[Kokonoe]

Tons of posts from those who didn't watch the video still keep occurring when this thread is about the video itself.

Exactly why it isn't a fighting game. I'm sorry. Holding A and a direction to ring out people after their health hits 200% isn't a fighter. Add in the randomity of items and it's basically a party game.

Does Holding A and ringing someone out in Soul Calibur mean it's not a fighting game either? You can turn items off, and the video shows how "Fighters" have their own spin on lifebars. Not every fighter uses the lifebar in the same way as Street Fighter.

[plufim]

Most every "fighter" has a banned list of characters. So that's a knock against them being a fighting game, since you have to invent rules? Hell, there's "no infinities" rules, which isn't something you can fix on a toggle in the menu, you have to stop the match when someone "plays wrong".

[DoctorWho]

Sure.

As long as something like the WWE games are also fighting games.

[Metal B]

I'm trying to understand the "Smash is a competitive platformer"-argument. Because navigating the stage is important, it's more like a platformer?

Its a stupid argument, because an platformer is a game mainly about reaching a goal through a parkour. An competitive platformer can only work, if you have different kind of difficult stages, in which the ultimate outcome is to play as long as someone gets to the goal and the other one not. Everything else about reaching a better time or getting to an goal before everybody else through a parkour would be a racing game.

And about the "random stuff"-argument:

Random elements only declares how seriously people take a game. The less the more serious player will tried it.

[Kontergurke]

Sure. As long as something like the WWE games are also fighting games.

I could absolutely see the argument for including wrestling games, UFC, Fight Night and the like to the fighting game genre.

However, I think it is fair to say that many of those games belong to the Sports genre because they are trying to simulate the sport without that much regard to player balance. All of those games have ratings for their characters, and many characters are just way too overpowered compared to others. But in those games, it doesn't matter, because they try to imitate reality (to varying degrees, I know there are more "arcadey" sports games).

On that note, I wonder how the online modes in these games are being played. Are they balanced or is everyone just using the guy with the highest rating?

Regardless, to answer the genre question: I think wrestling games belong to the sports genre, fighting sub-genre.
Fighters belong to the beat-em-up-genre, fighting sub-genre. Or maybe just the fighting genre, idk lol. Of course, there is bound to be some overlap.

[Zissou]

No different from having to create multiple character tiers in 99% of fighters due to the developer's inability to properly balance the roster.

Tiers are just players' opinions of different characters- they don't matter. Character bans are also quite rare (I believe the same is true of smash, no?)

[SamVimes]

Most every "fighter" has a banned list of characters. So that's a knock against them being a fighting game, since you have to invent rules? Hell, there's "no infinities" rules, which isn't something you can fix on a toggle in the menu, you have to stop the match when someone "plays wrong".

The bolded is just not true. Also in some game infinites are allowed.

[BosSin]

Doesn't "compartmentalise" mean to make a bong out of something? :P

Lol

[Raide]

I have always thought of "Beat em ups" as stuff like Streets of Rage or Double Dragon. Sideways scrolling stuff where you beat things up with fists or weapons.

Fighting games tend to be 2+ character(s) on a single plane (Be it 2D or 3D) and combat is focused around the other character(s) over a restricted time limit.

[Metal B]

Tiers are just players' opinions of different characters- they don't matter. Character bans are also quite rare (I believe the same is true of smash, no?)

They only ever ban Meta Knight, because Brawl Tournament became much more Meta Knight & Friends Events and therefore boring.

I have always thought of "Beat em ups" as stuff like Streets of Rage or Double Dragon. Sideways scrolling stuff where you beat things up with fists or weapons. Fighting games tend to be 2+ character(s) on a single plane (Be it 2D or 3D) and combat is focused around the other character(s) over a restricted time limit.

To quote myself:
"Fighting games are an sub-genre of Beat n'Up (which is also an sub-genre of Action games). The goal of an Beat n'Up is do defeat enemies with mainly close combat fighting skills. The actual difference, which also declares the fighting genre, is one thing: Fairness. "

[Holy Order Sol]

They're both intended for quick pick-up-and-play button mashing elements of five minute sessions.

Why is that even supposed to be relevant? Developer's intent doesn't mean shit and even if Smash wasn't a fighting game (which I don't even agree with), I'd say that the scene made it one.

[OnPoint]

I have always thought of "Beat em ups" as stuff like Streets of Rage or Double Dragon. Sideways scrolling stuff where you beat things up with fists or weapons. Fighting games tend to be 2+ character(s) on a single plane (Be it 2D or 3D) and combat is focused around the other character(s) over a restricted time limit.

You have basically said what I came here to say. I can't stand when people call fighting games beat em ups. Drives me up the wall.

[Seraphinianus]

They only ever ban Meta Knight, because Brawl Tournament became much more Meta Knight & Friends Events and therefore boring.

That was the reason? no wonder people don't take the game seriously on a competitive level

[Holy Order Sol]

That was the reason? no wonder people don't take the game seriously on a competitive level

Wasn't Hilde banned for similar reasons in SCIV?

Nothing wrong with taking measures to keep a scene alive when overall interest in the game is hurt to such an extent.

[Metal B]

That was the reason? no wonder people don't take the game seriously on a competitive level

Yes because he was such an dominating character with the best match-ups (God-Tier), that you have to use Meta Knight to have a chance against Meta Knight.

[Kokonoe]

That was the reason? no wonder people don't take the game seriously on a competitive level

Meta Knight is in his own tier.

[Pandaman]

No different from having to create multiple character tiers in 99% of fighters due to the developer's inability to properly balance the roster.

a tier list is a guideline for picking a character, you can freely ignore it 100% of the time.

[Seraphinianus]

Yes because he was such an dominating character with the best match-ups (God-Tier), that you have to use Meta Knight to have a chance against Meta Knight.

oh, the way you put it didn't sound like he was broken. carry on

[reggieandTFE]

The people saying its not a fighter need to get laid. Every single one of them.

[salpa]

People bringing up Vs. modes to displace SSB as a fighter are highly stretching.

Smash does not only have a Vs. mode, it has a fully functional arcade mode where you go through each round fighting single or multiple opponents at a time on a single stage. The side-scrolling parts are just some story mode they added on to a fighting game, the fighting parts are not just some fighting parts they added on to a side-scrolling action game.

[Holy Order Sol]

the fact that you need to invent rules like no items and ban stages is a big knock against the game as a fighter, its not a plus for it.

How is agreeing on rules and settings a knock against the game as a fighter?

That's hardly any different than agreeing on the timer/number of rounds. Players agreeing on a ruleset they think is suitable for competitive purposes isn't unheard of.

[MisterHero]

Not every fighter has to have the same rules as Street Fighter, and not every game has to be limited to such a narrow view in the way the fighting genre is viewed. It's a novel concept, but maybe it can be more than one genre too.

Wrestling games absolutely should count. It's just that because they're super-customizable they have terrible balance issues. :P

Many fighters have wrestlers. Are you going to tell Zangief that he isn't a fighter? :p

[Grampasso]

Just waiting for Cacpom VS Nintendo on WiiU!
Btw yes, it's obviously a fighting game...

[Divvy]

Smash is a franchise in which more than on player select characters from a roster and fight each other for the sole purpose of coming out on top in each round. It's clearly a fighter, why is this even a discussion?

[Gbraga]

It doesn't matter if it's a fighting game, if you like playing it, then play it.

I also don't get why some Smash fans get offended when people say it's not a fighting game. SF X Tekken is a fighting game and it's still garbage, being a fighting game doesn't make it better.

[Pathetic Basement Virgin]

Anyone arguing that it is not a fighting game are like the assholes who support Zimmerman.

How is this an argument when you look the facts?

[Infinite]

who cares. Call of Duty, Starcraft and Halo aren't fighting games but they are still played competitively.

[Brainiac 8]

Do you play characters....that fight....in various arenas...with specials....until everyone else is beaten?

I would say that constitutes a fighting game.

[EmCeeGramr]

a bee looks at a pterosaur looks at a bird looks at a bat looks at an airplane

"that's not real flight, that's self-powered gliding"

[Terareflection]

No different from having to create multiple character tiers in 99% of fighters due to the developer's inability to properly balance the roster.

That's a lot different actually. A tier list isn't created for banning characters.

[Seraphinianus]

anyway, i thought the real controversy was around its competitive scene and the whole "not a fighter" thing was just kind of a meme-ified troll.

[Zapperkhan]

As an outsider of smash, the lack of "Life Bar" seems like a weird thing to knock smash for, since it's fairly predictable when a player is at a certain % that it's easier to ring out people. Is it because it is not an absolute?

[Infinite]

anyway, i thought the real controversy was around its competitive scene and the whole "not a fighter" thing was just kind of a meme-ified troll.

what exactly about it's competitive community

[sixteen-bit]

I didn't know this debate was such a big deal.

[Seraphinianus]

what exactly about it's competitive community

I don't know. I don't see it anywhere, though I guess there was a melee tourney at civil war. I seem to remember some issues about rule sets, maybe some Evo drama?

Just seems weird that a fighting game that outsells all other fighters 10:1 has zero presence in the fighting game community.

[abstract alien]

Not that the video was bad or distasteful, but I just don't understand why it even exists. Seems in order to release and not have this type of reaction, a game has to deep throat either Street Fighter or Virtua Fighter mechanics and/or rule sets. I do love the "fighting game" community, but thank goodness they are a small niche that ultimately doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. It hurts to say that as a fan, but it's the truth. I understand categorization and labeling, but at some point you have to question if you are taking things in the appropriate manner.

[Holy Order Sol]

what exactly about it's competitive community

This has somewhat changed in recent years, but you'll usually find that Smash players don't play other fighting games much. I can understand that it's weird to seek recognition from other fighting game players when you have a significant part of your base not even knowing what other games are about or even badmouthing them for equally stupid reasons as the kind of shit Smash gets.

[danmaku]

I don't know. I don't see it anywhere, though I guess there was a melee tourney at civil war. I seem to remember some issues about rule sets, maybe some Evo drama? Just seems weird that a fighting game that outsells all other fighters 10:1 has zero presence in the fighting game community.

I was asking the same thing. I can see that the game is quite different from other FG, so the player base don't overlap as much as, say, Street Fighter and Marvel, but if Final Round (IIRC) can run a Catherine tournament, why not Smash?

[patapuf]

I don't know. I don't see it anywhere, though I guess there was a melee tourney at civil war. I seem to remember some issues about rule sets, maybe some Evo drama? Just seems weird that a fighting game that outsells all other fighters 10:1 has zero presence in the fighting game community.

much like mario kart, smash bros isn't a great competitive game (on a high level of play) because a lot of random crap happens and balance isn't good.

[Infinite]

I don't know. I don't see it anywhere, though I guess there was a melee tourney at civil war. I seem to remember some issues about rule sets, maybe some Evo drama? Just seems weird that a fighting game that outsells all other fighters 10:1 has zero presence in the fighting game community.

The only issues I remember with the smash community is the evo drama you brought up cause they didn't ban items and other things that happened with in its own community that were also mentioned in this thread. These things happened like after Brawl came out and the community was still trolled with "lol not a real fighter" before and after apparently. To be honest the only people who I noticed troll the game are the "capcom" players who would troll any other game for not being a capcom game, like calling Arcana Heart players paedophiles and such. This is a small minority though, no one cares every one just play their games really.

[Seraphinianus]

much like mario kart, smash bros isn't a great competitive game (on a high level of play) because a lot of random crap happens and balance isn't good.

i see

The only issues I remember with the smash community is the evo drama you brought up cause they didn't ban items and other things that happened with in its own community that were also mentioned in this thread. These things happened like after Brawl came out and the community was still trolled with "lol not a real fighter" before and after apparently. To be honest the only people who I noticed troll the game are the "capcom" players who would troll any other game for not being a capcom game, like calling Arcana Heart players paedophiles and such. This is a small minority though, no one cares every one just play their games really.

oh

[Holy Order Sol]

much like mario kart, smash bros isn't a great competitive game (on a high level of play) because a lot of random crap happens and balance isn't good.

"Random crap" is hardly an issue when items are off and with the usual stage lists enforced, which is how high level play generally works. You have Peach's turnips sure, but if you're gonna argue about those then Faust makes Guilty Gear not a fighting game.

I didn't follow the Smash at EVO debacle, but I was never told why items were allowed there in the first place. I would expect tourneys to take place according to the usual rules enforced in the games' respective scenes.

[Infinite]

"Random crap" is hardly an issue when items are off and with the usual stage lists enforced, which is how high level play generally works. You have Peach's turnips sure, but if you're gonna argue about those then Faust makes Guilty Gear not a fighting game. I didn't follow the Smash at EVO debacle, but I was never told why items were allowed there in the first place. I would expect tourneys to take place according to the usual rules enforced in the games' respective scenes.

Item spawning isn't entirely though when it's on; items spawn at rates and certain items spawn at specific parts of the stage. Plus there's Faust, Hsein-ko and Phoenix Wright; I guess UMVC3, Vampire Savior and Guilty Gear aren't high level competitive fighting games.

[Vinci]

So disallowing options invalidates something within a genre as 'competitive'? So... like... Magic the Gathering tournaments (based on my foggy memory) don't count as competitive because they had to make rules designating what is and is not allowed? And someone earlier brought up how becoming good at Smash Bros. doesn't better equip you for other games... GunValkyrie didn't either. Does that make it not a third-person shooter?

To be frank, I don't have a horse in this race; I just find the logic behind some of these comments intriguing.

[odd_morsel]

It's not a fighting game to me - just like Demon's Souls isn't a JRPG. It's a type of fighting game for sure, but it's deceptive to call it a "fighting game" and its fans may even feel its not being done justice by being labelled as something it clearly isn't.

[Boss Doggie]

Eh mostly blame it on people playing games from the same company assuming it is the only framework of the genre. I mean, you have people thinking less buttons = not a fighting game.

[Nils]

Coming up next: Is black a color?

[Houston3000]

Smash Bros. is a fighting game, there's really no argument to be had. The fact that you can play 4 players at a time doesn't disqualify it and the way the health percentage works doesn't disqualify it... it definitely doesn't move it into a separate genre.

The closest you can come to disqualifying it is the fact that a lot of the levels you fight on have platforms. Again though, that doesn't draw it into any other genre, it just adds a unique element to the fighting game formula.

It's in no way a beat 'em up, there are special MODES in the newer games that kind of resemble a beat 'em up game but, by that logic, Soul Calibur III is a role-playing strategy game because you move units around on a board-game grid and level up your custom character in 'Chronicle of the Sword' mode.

much like mario kart, smash bros isn't a great competitive game (on a high level of play) because a lot of random crap happens and balance isn't good.

I'm not going to argue it's merits as a competitive game too much. At least as far as it being something included in a contest like EVO... but an extraordinarily common way to play Smash Bros. (on "a high level of play") is by having players fight on a flat stage (like Final Destination) with items disabled. Besides Brawl's absolutely idiotic addition of "tripping" there's no randomness to be had. 80% of my time with SSBM was this way and it was very competitive among friends who I also played Tekken, SF3, and MvC2 with.

[Riposte]

Tournaments are nothing but highly structured parties.

It's not a fighting game to me - just like Demon's Souls isn't a JRPG. It's a type of fighting game for sure, but it's deceptive to call it a "fighting game" and its fans may even feel its not being done justice by being labelled as something it clearly isn't.

That's because Demon's Souls is a 3D action game. Smash fits in "fighting game" more than anything else, even if it is an unusual game.

[Nils]

The fact that you can play 4 players at a time doesn't disqualify it (something like MvC3 has 4-player for example) and the way the health percentage works doesn't disqualify it... it definitely doesn't move it into a separate genre.

I want to buy your version of MvC3.