[kinggroin]

I'm not sure you'd get much learning done in a school where everybody wore their political opinions on the front of their shirts. I'm in favour of standardised school uniforms.

Agreed. Its the best compromise.

[Kinitari]

This doesn't seem even mildly shocking in Canada, I think again this is an issue with a lot of people in the states because of how big of a deal freedom of speech is there.

First of all, on school grounds what constitutes uniform is almost entirely up to a school. With situations like this? If a shirt is intended to offend people, or insult people - then it will not be allowed. This is in the same vein as calling out any other group of people - if it were a shirt that something like "Asians are going to hell" - you better BELIEVE he would be asked to remove it, or be suspended for it.

Being intenionally incendiary is not tolerated, simple as that. And that judgement call is made across the country every day. My highschool had uniforms, but we also had dress down days. One of those days a student wore a shirt that said "Fuck you" - he was asked to change it.

[vitaminwateryum]

This thread is kind of odd to read. Do people really think they can say whatever they want at a school just because of freedom of speech? If you were at a restaurant and started throwing out racial slurs, do you really think they're not going to throw you out because of freedom of speech?

[dude]

This thread is kind of odd to read. Do people really think they can say whatever they want at a school just because of freedom of speech? If you were at a restaurant and started throwing out racial slurs, do you really think they're not going to throw you out because of freedom of speech?

A restaurant is (usually) a privately-owned place and is under no obligation to tolerate anyone's bullshit. A school is more often than not public, on the other hand. There are a lot of laws that give schools a lot of power over children, basically a school can infringe almost any right it want for it's student, so legally it might be moot, but that's the sentiment people are expressing here.
This is not to mention that verbally assaulting people is not protected under any sort of freedom of speech.

And I personally am for a democratic school system, so I'm very much opposed to the idea of a school uniform... There are better ways to deal with a problematic student than beating him with good ol' discipline.
Freedom of speech is a big deal, one of the biggest deals, and I don't think it's right to teach children from an early age their opinion don't matter and that they shouldn't express them.

[Volimar]

I don't have a problem with him wearing the shirt. I don't care for proselytizing to a captive audience though.

[Narcosis]

So, between wearing the shirt and antagonizing other students with threats of damnation, it seems odd to me that the reason stated in both articles in the OP that the school chose to suspend him was over the shirt, which is quite harmless by itself.

It seems to me the shirt is nothing but be upset about, but they should have instead demanded the guy tone down his harassment of other students. Because of this error I think the school administration is entirely responsible for making this into an international news story.

[Gaborn]

This thread is kind of odd to read. Do people really think they can say whatever they want at a school just because of freedom of speech? If you were at a restaurant and started throwing out racial slurs, do you really think they're not going to throw you out because of freedom of speech?

Freedom of speech is generally understood to follow the idea that your right to free speech ends when your speech drowns out others rights to not be assaulted with explicitly vulgar language. Even the US doesn't just allow you to scream obscenities. School speech is further restrained but not as much that a shirt like this would be very problematic.

[lunarworks]

This doesn't seem even mildly shocking in Canada, I think again this is an issue with a lot of people in the states because of how big of a deal freedom of speech is there. First of all, on school grounds what constitutes uniform is almost entirely up to a school. With situations like this? If a shirt is intended to offend people, or insult people - then it will not be allowed. This is in the same vein as calling out any other group of people - if it were a shirt that something like "Asians are going to hell" - you better BELIEVE he would be asked to remove it, or be suspended for it. Being intenionally incendiary is not tolerated, simple as that. And that judgement call is made across the country every day. My highschool had uniforms, but we also had dress down days. One of those days a student wore a shirt that said "Fuck you" - he was asked to change it.

One time in high school the principal came into my class, and told this burnout with an offensive shirt to turn it inside out right away and then to go home at lunch and change into a different shirt. The student was a prick, but he didn't argue one bit. He just did it.


Anyway, it seems lately the crazy religious base in Canada has been getting antsy and is testing the limits of public acceptance. Our local transit system has come under fire recently for accepting and putting up religious propaganda in the form of advertisements. It's kind of awkward when you walk into the subway, a public space, and see an ad that declares "There Is No God But Allah". Then there's the Christian ads that give "advice" to troubled kids in the form of "suck it up and pray".

[tiff]

If he's proselytizing that might be one thing, but that shirt is no worse than anything an atheist might wear.

[Sho_Nuff82]

All these kids could be reading a book right now.

[Dude Abides]

Students said William Swinimer has been preaching and making them feel uncomfortable, and the shirt was the last straw so they complained. Anyone actually reading the article? Clearly his father is a major wacko and the behaviour will continue. Christians loves feeling like victims anyway

I read the article. That's why I said what I said, you big silly.

[obijkenobi]

If he's proselytizing that might be one thing, but that shirt is no worse than anything an atheist might wear.

Sounds like the kid was trolling other kids (who are there to learn, not be trolled), and that the shirt was part of said trolling. I could this being ok if that was the thinking.

I mean it's one thing if a classmate asks you about religion once and you decline to talk about it. But if he keeps coming at you about it day after day in the same clothes, that would be really annoying and not the learning environment I'd want to be in.

[Dyno]

It's a dick message that only a religous nut would wear all the while claiming to be a good person. It's needlessly divisive.

Not enough to simply wear an "I Love Jesus" T-shirt eh? No, you need to condemn people and set them apart from you.

My Canada has started to suck up some of the bullshit culture war from the States. It really sucks.

[BeesEight]

This doesn't seem even mildly shocking in Canada, I think again this is an issue with a lot of people in the states because of how big of a deal freedom of speech is there.

Yeah, aside from Christian's looking for a fight, I can't see this story making any real impact in Canadian news.

Anyway, it seems lately the crazy religious base in Canada has been getting antsy and is testing the limits of public acceptance. Our local transit system has come under fire recently for accepting and putting up religious propaganda in the form of advertisements. It's kind of awkward when you walk into the subway, a public space, and see an ad that declares "There Is No God But Allah". Then there's the Christian ads that give "advice" to troubled kids in the form of "suck it up and pray".

Where is this? I vaguely remember being in Toronto during an atheist ad push. In my town, we used to have this really obnoxious anti-abortion ads on our buses as well but haven't seen them for awhile.

[lunarworks]

Where is this? I vaguely remember being in Toronto during an atheist ad push. In my town, we used to have this really obnoxious anti-abortion ads on our buses as well but haven't seen them for awhile.

Yup. Toronto.

The atheist ad campaign, controversial as it was, said "there is probably no god", which is not a definitive statement. But in any case, it was a bit provocative.

[Kinitari]

Yeah, aside from Christian's looking for a fight, I can't see this story making any real impact in Canadian news. Where is this? I vaguely remember being in Toronto during an atheist ad push. In my town, we used to have this really obnoxious anti-abortion ads on our buses as well but haven't seen them for awhile.

It's in Toronto. The Muslim one is new (some Hindu organization got upset about that if I remember correct) but the Christian ones have been around for a while. Mostly like "Bible verse of the day! Remember, no matter how fucked up shit gets, pray".

[BeesEight]

It's in Toronto. The Muslim one is new (some Hindu organization got upset about that if I remember correct) but the Christian ones have been around for a while. Mostly like "Bible verse of the day! Remember, no matter how fucked up shit gets, pray".

You'd think there would be better things for them to spend their money on. I really can't see these ads accomplishing anything.

[Goya]

Would that be acceptable though? Can a preacher just go into a school during recess and preach? At my uni this is forbidden. Though with his behaviour I don't think the kind of activity really matters, if he's harassing people.

I ask because the article isn't clear what "preaching" means. Was he harassing random students in the hallway? Was he standing on a cafeteria table preaching fire and brimstone to the whole student body? Or did he make his religious views his main topic of conversation with other students? Because that could be construed as "preaching." I'm not sure if I'd discipline a student just because they can't shut up about their religion (or political views) outside of class, even if he'll undoubtedly annoy almost everyone by doing so.

[Kinitari]

You'd think there would be better things for them to spend their money on. I really can't see these ads accomplishing anything.

I don't think they'll do anything really - the Muslim one caught my eye the first few times because it's like in big bold letters "There is no God but Allah!" and then some small inconsequential stuff underneath - but even that is just something my eyes glaze over now.

I ask because the article isn't clear what "preaching" means. Was he harassing random students in the hallway? Was he standing on a cafeteria table preaching fire and brimstone to the whole student body? Or did he make his religious views his main topic of conversation with other students? Because that could be construed as "preaching." I'm not sure if I'd discipline a student just because they can't shut up about their religion (or political views) outside of class.

My guess? He was bothering people about this in one way or another a lot, and they got a lot of complaints - but as long as he isn't passing around flyers in the hallway, they can't really do much about it - or they'd avoid doing something about it because it could easily become a he said she said thing. A shirt? Uniform infraction, easy peasy.

The school even went out of it's way to have some voluntary seminars on how to discuss and share your personal beliefs in a non-offensive, respectful way - and THAT pissed him off too, he said something about "School should only be about math and english, not this... seminar bullshit! I aint coming back till it's gone!" mind you, I may have done a little ad libbing there.

[JGS]

The fictional Jesus guy did get in trouble so I'm not really sure what your point is.

I don't recall him getting in trouble beyond the principal being all "Son, I am disapoint".

As horrible as his Jesus outfit was effort wise, this guys T-shirt does nothing for the Christian cause either.

Our school didn't allow logos period and that was oddly the result of Spuds McKenzie. My kids can wear prettymuch whatever they want but their schools practically advertise an open environment. basically if you go to their schools, you accept the diversity of the school. It's been pretty cool.

[lunarworks]

You'd think there would be better things for them to spend their money on. I really can't see these ads accomplishing anything.

It's all about spreading a message. It's like that guy who stands on the corner of the busy intersection downtown all day, yelling about Jesus. If he converts just one person he can feel satisfied he "saved a soul" and scored brownie points with god.

[Suairyu]

Freedom of speech is generally understood to follow the idea that your right to free speech ends when your speech drowns out others rights to not be assaulted with explicitly vulgar language. Even the US doesn't just allow you to scream obscenities. School speech is further restrained but not as much that a shirt like this would be very problematic.

Then quite frankly, US school speech laws are antagonistic to the goal of creating a safe environment to learn in.

I was actually really disappointed in how you compared this shirt to anti-war protest shirts. Completely different intents and effects on the surrounding students.

[SoulPlaya]

I love GAF, lol. What this kid needs is a scholarship, damn it!

[Goya]

My guess? He was bothering people about this in one way or another a lot, and they got a lot of complaints - but as long as he isn't passing around flyers in the hallway, they can't really do much about it - or they'd avoid doing something about it because it could easily become a he said she said thing. A shirt? Uniform infraction, easy peasy. The school even went out of it's way to have some voluntary seminars on how to discuss and share your personal beliefs in a non-offensive, respectful way - and THAT pissed him off too, he said something about "School should only be about math and english, not this... seminar bullshit! I aint coming back till it's gone!" mind you, I may have done a little ad libbing there.

Makes sense. He's an annoying shithead to be sure, but I feel like wearing the shirt is the only thing the school can discipline him for. Even then, you could argue that not letting him wear the shirt is a restriction of free speech, but I don't know how it works in Canada.

[Orayn]

By itself, the shirt is obnoxious but not the worst thing a student could wear under most school dress codes.

In the context of the rest of this kid's behavior... Yeah.

[ihearthawthats]

I thought the shirt was taking a subtle jab at christianity, as in, you will be drunk and partying all the time if you are not a traditional christian. Hence wasted being in such large, extravagant letters.

yup, even though i'm not personally offended by it, i see the t-shirt less as an announcement of his own religion and more of a denouncement of other people's lack of/different religion.

[JGS]

Then quite frankly, US school speech laws are antagonistic to the goal of creating a safe environment to learn in. I was actually really disappointed in how you compared this shirt to anti-war protest shirts. Completely different intents and effects on the surrounding students.

The US is smart enough to know the shirt isn;t a danger to anyone. You would have to be looking straight at his chest to even read the thing.

Free speech is different per school though and the school system could block this even if the free speech allows it. That doesn't change the shirt itself being harmless. If words hurt someone as much or more than sticks and stones then you're kind of on the weakly side.

[polyh3dron]

So you can dress up as Jesus for "Come as a Fictional Character Day" and get an award (if I remember the story right), but if you wear a shirt without the mockery then you get in trouble?

stop.

[Gaborn]

Then quite frankly, US school speech laws are antagonistic to the goal of creating a safe environment to learn in. I was actually really disappointed in how you compared this shirt to anti-war protest shirts. Completely different intents and effects on the surrounding students.

I think this response indicates a CONTENT based restriction - That is, you don't like what the shirt says, therefore it shouldn't be allowed, as opposed to an anti-war protest which you may agree with and thus should be tolerated.

Now, there ARE certain content based messages that can be banned. For example, because schools promote anti-drug messages (and you know what I think about THAT I hope from my posting history) schools are permitted to restrict students from wearing a pro-drug shirt (That was the "Bong Hits 4 Jesus" case from a few years back), but it's not because the school doesn't like those shirts, it's because it runs directly and wholly counter to their educational goal. That's different from a mere political or religious viewpoint that you may or may not agree with because SCHOOLS (but not necessarily students) as a policy are agnostic on religion. I think it's possible they could ban EVERY type of religious statement on a shirt and get away with it but as it stands this shirt would likely be fine.

[LuchaShaq]

Eh? I'm a atheist and I have no problem with him wearing that shirt.

Same here.

As long as it doesn't cross the line to hate speech (if the shirt said "god hates fags" etc) I don't care if cultists want to wear a message on their shirt.


Should have suspended him for harassing students with his fire and brimstone rantings, not the tshirt.

[Beerman462]

Just a theory, but it sounds like this kid caught hell from students for wearing the shirt. So he wore it everyday to spite them and in their confrontations he told them they were going to hell and such. I'm not saying its true just sounds like a way for it to go down and in that situation banning the shirt makes sense.

[joelseph]

Let's parody this garbage and make our own shitty religious shirts!

[joelseph]

[RELAYER]

The begrudging, reluctant acceptance in this thread is hilarious.

"Sigh...let the cultists wear what they will."
"eh...I guess he can do that if he wants to advertise his small-mindedness."
"grumble...I guess him being allowed to display his stupidity like this is ok."

[Raist]

My question...would they have an issue with a shirt that had a depiction of evolution on it

Yeah, I can see some hardcore christians being offended. Ironically, the same people wouldn't bat an eyelid if someone's wearing a t-shirt with the periodic table of elements.

[Suairyu]

I think this response indicates a CONTENT based restriction - That is, you don't like what the shirt says, therefore it shouldn't be allowed, as opposed to an anti-war protest which you may agree with and thus should be tolerated.

Absolutely not, and this is not a nuance you and I tend to butt heads on.

Anti-war shirts are a statement of opinion - that a war is wrong.

The tshirt in this story is more than that. It's a statement that anyone who isn't Christian is leading a completely invalid, worthless life. I honestly see little principle difference between that shirt and one that would say "black people should be hanged" - that's still not incitement, but its intent and effect is clear enough.

Yes, you can argue "don't look at the shirt", but you only have to see it once accidentally to know it's there. That is a threatening presence.

As the school pointed out, simply affixing "my" to the beginning of the shirt slogan would change the meaning and effect completely.

Maybe you still feel I'm protesting content here. I honestly feel I am not. There are better ways to put across the intellectual content of Jesus making his life worth living that would not upset others.

[jp_zer0]

less religion, the better

[Omegasquash]

The begrudging, reluctant acceptance in this thread is hilarious. "Sigh...let the cultists wear what they will." "eh...I guess he can do that if he wants to advertise his small-mindedness." "grumble...I guess him being allowed to display his stupidity like this is ok."

It IS OK that he's allowed to display his stupidity. And it's OK to let a cultist wear what they will. And it's OK for him to advertise his small mindedness.

The acceptance isn't begrudging or reluctant, either. It's called free speech. Whether he's doing it to be an ass troll isn't relevant.

[LilZippa]

This seems like the kids were fed up with his prosthelytizing and knew that there was a rule against wearing shirts with a message. I would just care that any type of ideology is not being shoved down the kids throat.

[Count Dookkake]

Fellow student should wear a shirt that says "Sunday is wasted with Jesus."

[Danielsan]

...

Well then. He should stop preaching, then he can wear his shirt.

[Gaborn]

Absolutely not, and this is not a nuance you and I tend to butt heads on. Anti-war shirts are a statement of opinion - that a war is wrong. The tshirt in this story is more than that. It's a statement that anyone who isn't Christian is leading a completely invalid, worthless life. I honestly see little principle difference between that shirt and one that would say "black people should be hanged" - that's still not incitement, but its intent and effect is clear enough. Yes, you can argue "don't look at the shirt", but you only have to see it once accidentally to know it's there. That is a threatening presence. As the school pointed out, simply affixing "my" to the beginning of the shirt slogan would change the meaning and effect completely. Maybe you still feel I'm protesting content here. I honestly feel I am not. There are better ways to put across the intellectual content of Jesus making his life worth living that would not upset others.

That's outrageous. Believing that non-Christians go to "Hell" after they die is not tantamount to suggesting that an entire race of people be murdered. The two statements are not equivalent on their face, one talks about a potential supernatural (AKA not actually happening) harm, one suggests an actual real physical threat to students.

[ZeroGravity]

Good. I support the school's decision. They're free to have whatever dress code they like.

[Perspicacity]

Why does the WASTED on the shirt have the spooky lettering with the inconsistent drop shadow? Why is Without Jesus in significantly smaller print? I hate this shirt and it has nothing to do with religion.

[Binabik15]

I'm not sure you'd get much learning done in a school where everybody wore their political opinions on the front of their shirts. I'm in favour of standardised school uniforms.

Eh, I can say that (political) opinions on shirts never impaired my ability to learn at school in any way.

Let the kid wear his Jesus shirt. Let the other guy wear his Bad Religion shirt. Let the stupid knucklehead wear his Lonsdale or Thor Steinar mechandise. Let the girls wear their tight shirts, short skirts, hotpants, heels, cleavage-you'd-want-to-fall-asleep-in tops etc.*

School uniforms might be good for other reasons, though.

*Those things definitely DID have a negative impact on my ability to concentrate.

[Gaborn]

Why does the WASTED on the shirt have the spooky lettering with the inconsistent drop shadow? Why is Without Jesus in significantly smaller print? I hate this shirt and it has nothing to do with religion.

actually I thought about it and I think making the "Jesus" lettering smaller is a clever psychological trick. "Wasted" draws your eyes, but so naturally does the smaller lettering. Still an ugly shirt but at least a FEW seconds thought was put into it.

[WoodenLung]

I wore this in school to religion classes as a kid when to be cool and edgy

[cartoon_soldier]

All Schools should have uniforms and solve all these stupid clothes issues

[nVidiot_Whore]

Meh.. dumb shirt, dumb to make a big deal about shirts.

Seriously, who hasn't gone to a high school where trying to "ban" some article of clothing hasn't backfired?

I know I did.. nobody gave a crap about "Big Johnson" t-shirts (silly penis reference shirts semi-popular in the mid-early nineties) until our school banned them.

My tennis team created "Got to have balls to play *highschoolname* Tennis" shirts w/ a racket and 2 tennis balls conveniently placed. Nobody paid a lick of attention until they banned the shirts and suspended the team captain who came up with the slogan.. then all of a sudden it was a big deal, and the shirts became collectors items, etc.

[The Lamp]

So you can dress up as Jesus for "Come as a Fictional Character Day" and get an award (if I remember the story right), but if you wear a shirt without the mockery then you get in trouble?

Nailed it.

This is ridiculous. He's not stepping on anyone by wearing a harmless shirt like this.

fucking attention whores.

Are all shirts intended to be read "attention-whoring"?