[KO Traveling Hobo]

No - I'm literally talking about my example of objectification, and what you are doing when you're objectifying. If you like that person for other reasons/consider their feelings, etc., you are not objectifying them.

You can't appreciate someone's sexual attractiveness just for its own merits?

[leadbelly]

Part of the problem seems to be that this is seen as a failing. People like different things, the horror of someone not being exactly a certain set of them. That, and there doesn't seem to be an agreement on what friendzoned means, in this thread.

Well, it is a failing in the sense that one person wanted a romantic relationship and the other person didn't.

[Glass Rebel]

No - I'm literally talking about my example of objectification, and what you are doing when you're objectifying. If you like that person for other reasons/consider their feelings, etc., you are not objectifying them.

I'm not really sure what you're trying to argue then. Just commenting on someone's looks isn't objectifying.

[ScreenSplitter]

Obviously friendzoning is an overused term a lot of the time;

Just because a girl is nice to you, and you are nice to her does not mean you are "friendzoned". It means you're "friends". Because having attractive female friends is actually, completely fine.

But having been in the situation before; there are girls that know the guys who are attracted to them, and continue to cuddle them/say they love them. To that extent it IS what I would call "friendzoning". Either pick it up and take it home, or stop poking it and leave it alone.

[Arjen]

Interesting article, i feel the term "Friendzoning" is used to describe to many situations.
From actually being good friends with a woman, to being rejected and the girls just says, let's be friends to soften the blow. I'm starting to hate the term, because it's used in to many situations.

[leadbelly]

Interesting article, i feel the term "Friendzoning" is used to describe to many situations. From actually being good friends with a woman, to being rejected and the girls just says, let's be friends to soften the blow. I'm starting to hate the term, because it's used in to many situations.

Yeah actually, this is the main one I was thinking of.

[kinoki]

As someone who has never seen himself as a "nice guy", and to be honest I've been called the opposite quite a few times, I have a real beef with the friendzone-concept. People who act like everyone is meant for them to have sex with is in the wrong. Sometimes friendship is just that, friendship. Stop trying to make something out of something that clearly isn't meant to be. I hate the false sense of entitlement guys have when it comes to women.

[JokerOfSpades]

You can't appreciate someone's sexual attractiveness just for its own merits?

Does anyone read my posts in a given topic? I already said that it's fine, and both men and women do it. If you know the person and all you're thinking about is their sexual attractiveness, that is objectifying in a more negative way.

I'm not really sure what you're trying to argue then. Just commenting on someone's looks isn't objectifying.

1) Objectifying people you don't know is fine - people you walk past on your daily commute are less than objects to the mind - you hardly think of anything beyond what they look like, if that. And both men and women do this.
2) Objectifying people you do know is more negative, because then you're reducing them to nothing but their physical attractiveness.

[KO Traveling Hobo]

Does anyone read my posts in a given topic? I already said that it's fine, and both men and women do it. If you know the person and all you're thinking about is their sexual attractiveness, that is objectifying in a more negative way.

What I don't get is why you keep bringing this up.

[Kenak]

Spend a day in a man's body. Show of hands, gentlemen. Would you be willing to have sex with nearly any attractive female? I can't believe you'd even argue such a statement, Devolution.

As with most things, it's not one way or another (all men versus no guys), but assuming no strings were attached, yes I would.

[SmokyDave]

I don't really get what the friendzone is. I always thought it went 'friendzone -> rejection' rather than 'rejection -> friendzone'. Like, a bloke makes friends with a specific woman but with an ulterior motive to woo her through 'nice guy' tactics.

I saw some dude trying to chat one of my exes up on FB. She's been having beef with her boyfriend recently and this dude is her 'friend'. He posted a picture that said "If you can't trust the one you love, love the one you trust". I cringed myself inside out. That dude, right there, that is what I think of when I hear 'friendzone'.

[leadbelly]

As someone who has never seen himself as a "nice guy", and to be honest I've been called the opposite quite a few times, I have a real beef with the friendzone-concept. People who act like everyone is meant for them to have sex with is in the wrong. Sometimes friendship is just that, friendship. Stop trying to make something out of something that clearly isn't meant to be. I hate the false sense of entitlement guys have when it comes to women.

What? Maybe there are people like that, but isn't it more the fact that sometimes, one person may build feelings for another that unfortunately aren't shared?

I don't quite follow your reasoning. Are you saying that the definition of 'friendzone' is a false sense of entitlement guys have for women? If not then your point is somewhat irrelevant.

[Glass Rebel]

Does anyone read my posts in a given topic? I already said that it's fine, and both men and women do it. If you know the person and all you're thinking about is their sexual attractiveness, that is objectifying in a more negative way. 1) Objectifying people you don't know is fine - people you walk past on your daily commute are less than objects to the mind - you hardly think of anything beyond what they look like, if that. And both men and women do this. 2) Objectifying people you do know is more negative, because then you're reducing them to nothing but their physical attractiveness.

I get what you're saying but that's a pretty harsh view IMO. The original poster asked why it's so "offensive" to comment on someone's looks but objectifying someone goes much further.

[leadbelly]

I don't really get what the friendzone is. I always thought it went 'friendzone -> rejection' rather than 'rejection -> friendzone'. Like, a bloke makes friends with a specific woman but with an ulterior motive to woo her through 'nice guy' tactics. I saw some dude trying to chat one of my exes up on FB. She's been having beef with her boyfriend recently and this dude is her 'friend'. He posted a picture that said "If you can't trust the one you love, love the one you trust". I cringed myself inside out. That dude, right there, that is what I think of when I hear 'friendzone'.

Well a basic definition of it is:

In popular culture, the "friend zone" refers to a platonic relationship where one person wishes to enter into a romantic relationship while the other does not

[KO Traveling Hobo]

I don't really get what the friendzone is. I always thought it went 'friendzone -> rejection' rather than 'rejection -> friendzone'. Like, a bloke makes friends with a specific woman but with an ulterior motive to woo her through 'nice guy' tactics. I saw some dude trying to chat one of my exes up on FB. She's been having beef with her boyfriend recently and this dude is her 'friend'. He posted a picture that said "If you can't trust the one you love, love the one you trust". I cringed myself inside out. That dude, right there, that is what I think of when I hear 'friendzone'.

I think it goes like 'friendzone -> rejection -> awareness of being friendzoned.' Making friends with someone just to get in their pants is, as you said, being a Nice Guy. It almost always leads to getting friendzoned, but you can also get friendzoned without being a Nice Guy -- Nice Guys just tend to get really bitter about it.

I cringed just from reading that anecdote. Please tell me your ex set him straight.

[Napoleonthechimp]

I was reading some of the comments: *shakes head*

Only women can find things sexist? I don't think they know how that works.

[Angry Fork]

I normally agree with Devo on this stuff but she's taking a weird position here. If it's okay for a woman to sleep with any guy she wants then clearly it's okay for a guy as well? Why is it if a guy wants to fuck all women he views them as "fuck things" but when a women does it it's empowerment and so on? (I'm not sure if feminist gaf thinks women can't be sluts so I won't use that term)

I've only read the first couple pages though maybe it's explained in the others. But if a guy says he would have sex with most women who were fairly attractive this says absolutely nothing about how he treats women in a relationship. There's no reason why both male/female can't have sex if they want to and neither should be penalized or judged for it.

[kinoki]

What? Maybe there are people like that, but isn't it more the fact that sometimes, one person may build feelings for another that unfortunately aren't shared? I don't quite follow your reasoning. Are you saying that the definition of 'friendzone' is a false sense of entitlement guys have for women? If not then your point is somewhat irrelevant.

Yes. Friendzone is the false sense of entitlement. Guys, in this case, think they're in the right to something but are denied it by the girl.

No relationship is on equal terms. One person is always going to feel something the otherone isn't. If a guy and girl are friends and one become attracted by the other and there is no way to continue the friendship in the present form either you cut it off or you accept the relationship at the lowest common denomiator, i.e. 'the friendzone'. But this is something the one with the most emotions place upon themselves, in these cases 'the guys' not something imposed by 'the girls'.

I saw some dude trying to chat one of my exes up on FB. She's been having beef with her boyfriend recently and this dude is her 'friend'. He posted a picture that said "If you can't trust the one you love, love the one you trust". I cringed myself inside out. That dude, right there, that is what I think of when I hear 'friendzone'.

I couldn't agree more.

[PBalfredo]

Yes. Friendzone is the false sense of entitlement. Guys, in this case, think they're in the right to something but are denied it by the girl.

I'm not sure where we're making the jump from "friendzoned guy wants to be in a romantic relationship with the girl" to "friendzoned guy feels entitled to be in a romantic relationship with the girl"

[leadbelly]

Yes. Friendzone is the false sense of entitlement. Guys, in this case, think they're in the right to something but are denied it by the girl. No relationship is on equal terms. One person is always going to feel something the otherone isn't. If a guy and girl are friends and one become attracted by the other and there is no way to continue the friendship in the present form either you cut it off or you accept the relationship at the lowest common denomiator, i.e. 'the friendzone'. But this is something the one with the most emotions place upon themselves, in these cases 'the guys' not something imposed by 'the girls'.

As others have mentioned, everyone seems to have a slightly different opinion on what the 'friend zone' actually is.

However, if you look at the concept at its most basic, it simply means that one person wants something more serious while the other person doesn't. A friendship that may start out platonic (school friends, etc) but with one of them wanting more than that, and as a result, being 'friend zoned'.

I still don't get how a man's attitude towards women has anything to do with the concept of being 'friend zoned'.

[pompidu]

Yes. Friendzone is the false sense of entitlement. Guys, in this case, think they're in the right to something but are denied it by the girl.

There is no sense of entitlement with friendzoned. You clearly don't understand what it means. When a women implies a friendship that is more than a friend and leads a guy on and then nothing happens with said woman and man, that is friendzoned. It is based on false promises on the women's part. Works vice versa also.

[CrudeDiatribe]

I'd argue that always viewing people as fuckable things is not a good way to go about shit, yeah.

That attraction is put upon us by the circuitry of our brains... it doesn't mean that they immediately begin consciously scheming to sleep with her. There's still a choice in that.

I think an at least nominal sexual thought about most women I see. From 'Hello' to 'No thanks' to a momentary fantasy. These go away quickly after I speak with someone, and I don't feel like it governs my behaviour.

I do not share these thoughts at the time or later, and find men that do gross and unpleasant. ("That dirty whore wants me!", "Would.", etc)

It is important to get someone from sex-object to person.

Friendzoning isn't about saying "no" because the woman in question doesn't even acknowledge the man's intentions.

Yeah, fuck these telepathic bitches. Bros before telep-hos!

For me being friendzoned means that the female knows a guy likes her, she doesn't like him, yet abuses whatever kindness he throws her way. Also, The Ladder Theory.

That's just being manipulative; this thread is first time I've heard that behaviour described as 'friend zone'.

Ladder theory is also bullshit, and is pretty much the friend zone I think of: Asshole men that can't accept that a woman might not find them attractive enough to fuck.

Also, men who feel they are in the 'friend zone' because they haven't asked out the female friends they like: idiots.

Like, a bloke makes friends with a specific woman but with an ulterior motive to woo her through 'nice guy' tactics. I saw some dude trying to chat one of my exes up on FB. She's been having beef with her boyfriend recently and this dude is her 'friend'. He posted a picture that said "If you can't trust the one you love, love the one you trust". I cringed myself inside out. That dude, right there, that is what I think of when I hear 'friendzone'.

Yeah, that's the sort of shit the OP is talking about.

[The Anti-Monitor]

Attractive women almost never get rejected attractive men can easily get rejected often. The Chris Evans of the world can go to clubs and fail more times the they succeed with near to no standards, the Precioises of the world will find someone.

I think the problem comes with people who think they're Chris Evans, but they're far from it.

The problem with the "friendzone" term is that, most of the time, it simply comes from a guy who is friend with a girl (or viceversa, but let me use the "traditional example") but is actually interested in dating/fucking. It's not her fault she does consider him a friend and wants nothing more. And while some guys might take this well, a lot of them go to the Internet to cry about it and say how they were too nice with her. Cue some insults to her.

That's why I hate the term. A girl "leading someone on" is more often than not completely made up by the guy.

Of course, I'm talking about genuine friendship, not someone who uses someone else as an ego booster.

[Glass Rebel]

People are kinda missing the finer intricacies of the friend zone and everything surrounding it here....

[leadbelly]

That's just being manipulative; this thread is first time I've heard that behaviour described as 'friend zone'. Ladder theory is also bullshit, and is pretty much the friend zone I think of: Asshole men that can't accept that a woman might not find them attractive enough to fuck. Also, men who feel they are in the 'friend zone' because they haven't asked out the female friends they like: idiots.

Am I the only one to take the term 'friend zone' literally? In other words a platonic relationship where one person wishes to enter a romantic relationship while the other person does not. They are in the friend zone because the other person only wants to be friends with them.

It seems to me all these varying opinions are more to do with why someone might be friend zoned.

[pompidu]

People are kinda missing the finer intricacies of the friend zone and everything surrounding it here....

Do point them out for us then.

[Timbuktu]

I hadn't realize that friendzone was a verb, thinking naively that it was merely a situation when being friends with someone gets in the way of anything romantic in the relationship. We all categorize people into group and types, and it's always weird to see people out of context. Even when two people can be attracted to each other at some point, it can be no one's fault if the timing is off.

I don't know why people think of it as a girl leading someone on. There's already a phrase for that.

[Timedog]

I think the problem comes with people who think they're Chris Evans, but they're far from it. The problem with the "friendzone" term is that, most of the time, it simply comes from a guy who is friend with a girl (or viceversa, but let me use the "traditional example") but is actually interested in dating/fucking. It's not her fault she does consider him a friend and wants nothing more. And while some guys might take this well, a lot of them go to the Internet to cry about it and say how they were too nice with her. Cue some insults to her. That's why I hate the term. A girl "leading someone on" is more often than not completely made up by the guy. Of course, I'm talking about genuine friendship, not someone who uses someone else as an ego booster.

This is true, but the term itself has nothing to do with guys whining and talking shit cause a girl doesn't like them.

[teruterubozu]

Friendzoning, cock-blocking, wingman, etc.

Just say "can't get laid."

[cousins]

ITT: Men make excuses and speak as authority figures on things they don't understand

[The Anti-Monitor]

This is true, but the term itself has nothing to do with guys whining and talking shit cause a girl doesn't like them.

It's all associated with it, even if the term itself isn't a bad thing.

[Glass Rebel]

Do point them out for us then.

leadbelly has the right idea actually. The friendzone is just the state of two friends and one of them wanting a relationship while the other doesn't. The finer intricacies I'm talking about are the "reasons" why that situation exists in the first place and how this "friendship" is playing out for them.

The "entitled virgin nerds" on the internet usually take the position that they made it clear to the "friend" that they were interested in more but were exploited, lead on, kept as back-up cock etc. Sometimes it happens that they were just delusional and their female friend had no idea at all. I think everybody knows at least one of these guys.

The other side takes the stance that these nerds being put into the friendzone just weren't man enough and that the women isn't at fault at all. Whether the girl was dishonest doesn't make a difference at all, "you in da frendzohn you don maang!" Last time I checked, friendships were made up of more than one person though.

These are the two extremes found in the OP and this thread and as far as I am concerned neither really represents reality as a whole. Not every "friendzone incident" is the same and saying "Usually it's just guys wanting to fuck" or "The friendzone is just a tool women use to get rid of men they don't want to fuck" is both stupid and detrimental to the discussion at hand.

[computers putin']

I'm not into that shit either... I don't feel like he said anything crazy, he asked would I be wiling to have sex with any attractive female...I didn't say it dominated my thought process or that it was the end all be all, but yes if she's attractive to me than I would be willing to have sex with her...Attraction carrying both a physical and mental congruency.

Insinuating that this thought process goes for all men was a bit hyperbolic, but as various studies have shown there does seem to a great difference in how men and women generally view sex and their willingness to engage in it with random people. Males show a positive correlation, while females generally show a recessive one.

co-signed

[Fantasmo]

Why is this always about guys vs girls, like an epic battle?????? Really people? Seriously?

Rules of engagement:

If a girl is not interested, and makes that abundantly clear, it's on the guy to get out.
If a guy is interested, but hasn't made it clear, and the girl has no idea, then once again, it's on the guy to get out, or at least make it clear.

If a guy has made it clear, and the girl is using or toying with him, it's on the girl, she is the worst type of girl to get involved with, but the guy needs to leave.

Vice versa is equally true, so let's play this out:

If a guy is not interested, and makes that abundantly clear, it's on the girl to get out.
If a girl is interested, but hasn't made it clear, and the guy has no idea, then once again, it's on the girl to get out, or at least make it clear.

If a girl has made it clear, and the guy is using or toying with him, it's on the guy, he is the worst type of guy to get involved with, but the girl needs to leave.

[Timedog]

It's all associated with it, even if the term itself isn't a bad thing.

I mean, its associated in the sense that Nice Guys are more likely to get rejected/"I just want to be friends", and probably more likely to rant about it on the internet and talk shit about the girl and generally be a childish dick about it. So you're going to run across that kind of entitled, sexist talk when you see the word just by virtue of the type of guy that's more apt to get friendzoned.

But(and I'm pretty much arguing against the author of the blog here, not you, because you have every right to simply "dislike" any word you want!), the idea that the term is sexist is pretty ridiculous. All it is is a shorthand description for a common event in dating (that event being the girl telling the guy that she "just wants to be friends"). There's no point in getting upset at a description of an event. The blog's condemnation of the term just seemed like an off-base vehicle for a justifiable and quite true rant on Nice Guys.

[Sub_Level]

Men who want to avoid the friendzone should

- Make their intentions known early on

and

- Accept it if they don't get the nature of relationship they want with a girl. You have no obligation to be her friend, so if you don't want to, then don't. Don't be in a friendship with a girl because you hope one day you'll hook up.

[YoungHav]

My girlfriends housemate and her friends go out on weekend with the specific intention of leading guys on and not having to pay for a single drink. I've heard them talking and laughing about all the guys that fall at their feet, and how easy it is to manipulate them. Not really relevant here, but god damn it pissed me off.

LOL. I knew someone who did this with her friends. It is pathetic IMO, just pay for your own damn drinks.

[Fantasmo]

All of this dating stuff swings both ways, both genders use the same tactics, equally play dirty, equally are capable of hurting one another in the exact same ways. Be who you want to be, figure out what you want out of a partner, put it out there, and if you aren't getting what you want, just meet a new person already. Everything else is an utter waste of time.

But by all means, if you want to waste time in your life pining over someone, or being mad at them for something that's pretty ingrained into who they are, go right ahead. But stop blaming anybody but yourself for your current position, you can't change what someone likes.

I wish I could make the previous line a huge font.

[Timedog]

LOL. I knew someone who did this with her friends. It is pathetic IMO, just pay for your own damn drinks.

People need to stop buying drinks for girls. Why would you pay for a conversation? What kind of precedent does that set for any possible relationship? And even if you're just trying to get laid, you're going to pay for sex? I truly never ever got this concept.

[Cubsfan23]

a friend zone doesn't even exist to me.


you guys need to get this term out of your head

[Glass Rebel]

People need to stop buying drinks for girls. Why would you pay for a conversation? What kind of precedent does that set for any possible relationship? And even if you're just trying to get laid, you're going to pay for sex? I truly never ever got this concept.

I don't even buy my own drinks. Still herpes free!

[SquiddyCracker]

Oh! So that's where this originates:

Funny and true.

[Mammoth Jones]

Interesting article, i feel the term "Friendzoning" is used to describe to many situations. From actually being good friends with a woman, to being rejected and the girls just says, let's be friends to soften the blow. I'm starting to hate the term, because it's used in to many situations.

I always thought friendzoning was when one had a romantic ambition that wasn't reciprocated but a friendship was.

I don't consider my female friends to have put me in the "friendzone" since there was never any desire on either of us to take it any further than friendship

[Arjen]

People need to stop buying drinks for girls. Why would you pay for a conversation? What kind of precedent does that set for any possible relationship? And even if you're just trying to get laid, you're going to pay for sex? I truly never ever got this concept.

If i'm in a (long) conversation with a girl, and i'm thirsty i feel rude just getting a drink for myself, so i always ask if she want's a drink to.
You can always spot the girls who engage in conversation just to get a drink though, most of the time they just blatantly ask for it, fuck them.

[YoungHav]

Put me down for Team Boco. I understand what he's saying and can't wrap my head around the deniers but to each his own. It's a usually a split second animalistic jumanji ripping that up thought that lasts maybe 80 milliseconds. Like I'm flashing sideways to some alternative timeline where we're procreating in the jungle as if we were humanity's last hope of survival, then it stops.

People need to stop buying drinks for girls. Why would you pay for a conversation? What kind of precedent does that set for any possible relationship? And even if you're just trying to get laid, you're going to pay for sex? I truly never ever got this concept.

Hahahahaha, I'm mad at whoever started this lame "tradition".

[ihearthawthats]

i see friendzoning as a miscommunication or a lack thereof. it can be the "fault" of either side of the party, both, or even neither. so even if we discount the fact that females can indeed be friendzoned, when a male is friendzoned it is possible for it to be partially his fault. i see it mostly as merely an unfortunate circumstance, but since a lot of people joke about it perhaps i'm a bit desensitized to the seriousness of it (if it even is serious, although the blog post seems in indicate that it is). when i see all those friendzone jokes on reddit, i can laugh at either the male or the female depending on the situation, so at least personally i don't find it to be sexist one bit.

i honestly never knew the word was used to characterize the female in a certain way. at least not in the way a word like slut are used. in fact, i'd be more inclined to associate friendzoned with things like "nice guys finish last" and men being "whipped", rather than women being prude (or whatever the opposite of a slut is).

[Napoleonthechimp]

The entire thing is completely dumb. These days it seems like everything man do is sexist or derogatory.

These days I forget all the bullshit women come out with and talk to them as if there is filthy sexual animal beneath the pretty girly surface. If a man just wants a woman for sex then he should be upfront about it but most men usually aren't because they feel they've got to follow these ridiculous rules that people have invented.

What is more deceitful? Only wanting sex and pretending you're interested in her beyond that (then dumping her when you've got what you want) or being openly honest about what you want from the start?

[Fantasmo]

I used to post in dating gaf until one day it hit me like a ton of bricks. All you have to do is be social and BE YOUR DAMN SELF.

All that crap about being interesting and constantly bettering yourself is a load of crap.

Stop living in the past, stop thinking you suck with the opposite sex, stop letting people put crappy ideas in your head, stop putting crappy ideas in your own head.

Take a shower, get out of the house, get involved in things that YOU can enjoy, whether its a barbecue, a class, an activity, WHATEVER, and open your mouth. You like someone? Tell them. Early on! If they don't like you or aren't available, don't get mad, MOVE ON. You are getting older by the minute. Tick tock tick tock....

There are successful men out there who want nothing but a good wife who takes care of the home, and there's nothing wrong with that.

There are successful women out there who want nothing but a good man who is a rock and a shoulder to lean on. The man doesn't even need to be successful or funny or built of muscle, just someone she feels pretty good around.

Friendzone, dating, this, that... it's all stupid to even think about. What people want is completely out of your control. You wanna better yourself? Fine, change, but god almighty don't do it for someone else. You want a better relationship? Go get one, because you can't get mad at someone for not returning your expectations. They are wired different. The only rule I can see is don't be a slob, but that doesn't even hold true sometimes. Stop beating a dead horse and redirect your completely wasted energy.

[Vagabundo]

Put me in the "Friendzone is guys/girls who have a crush on someone and use friendship to stay close hoping love will blossom" crew.

I didn't think it was about sex, more so romantic notions, relationships etc.

[pompidu]

leadbelly has the right idea actually. The friendzone is just the state of two friends and one of them wanting a relationship while the other doesn't. The finer intricacies I'm talking about are the "reasons" why that situation exists in the first place and how this "friendship" is playing out for them. The "entitled virgin nerds" on the internet usually take the position that they made it clear to the "friend" that they were interested in more but were exploited, lead on, kept as back-up cock etc. Sometimes it happens that they were just delusional and their female friend had no idea at all. I think everybody knows at least one of these guys. The other side takes the stance that these nerds being put into the friendzone just weren't man enough and that the women isn't at fault at all. Whether the girl was dishonest doesn't make a difference at all, "you in da frendzohn you don maang!" Last time I checked, friendships were made up of more than one person though. These are the two extremes found in the OP and this thread and as far as I am concerned neither really represents reality as a whole. Not every "friendzone incident" is the same and saying "Usually it's just guys wanting to fuck" or "The friendzone is just a tool women use to get rid of men they don't want to fuck" is both stupid and detrimental to the discussion at hand.

True that, there is more than two sides and everyone's definition is different. I associate being friendzoned when one party is lead on by a different party, assuming something between the two of them with both showing the same intention while one knows its never gonna happen just to stringing them along.