[OttomanScribe]

So I work at a bookstore located near a major hospital. I like my job, I get to talk a lot about books, the store is a bit famous so lots of interesting people/travellers come in, and I don't have to sell any suss stuff that I am not comfortable with.

However there is one thing, we have a health section. This health section is full of quackery. You name the BS faux medicine, and it'll be there, claiming to cure everything from anxiety to cancer.

What is the morality of selling such dangerous pseudo science. Should I refuse to sell it? Try and get my boss to cease stocking it? Or is it none of my business what dangerous snake oil bs people buy?

My current policy is to talk them out of it if I am asked their opinion, and to recommend other books, like Ben Goldacre's 'Bad Science' when they don't ask.

[Volimar]

Seriously. If you're going to scam people, you need to come up with a better name than an "X-ray" machine.

[CiSTM]

If it bothers you then do something about it, in the end it won'd do much good since people will go somewhere else to by the dam books but at least you wouldn't be part of the problem.

[daviyoung]

Sorry man, if we pursue that censorship to its logical conclusion your bookstore wouldn't have many books.

[Volimar]

Maybe put up a sign that stresses people the importance of talking to a doctor before starting any new diet/exercise regimen...

[OttomanScribe]

Sorry man, if we pursue that censorship to its logical conclusion your bookstore wouldn't have many books.

I don't know that it would be considered censorship as they can get it just as easily elsewhere. Also I don't really mind even if it is censorship.

If banning someone selling hydrochloric acid disguised as lemonade is censorship, then I'm cool with that.

What other books would that logic lead to us not stocking? :S

[OttomanScribe]

Maybe put up a sign that stresses people the importance of talking to a doctor before starting any new diet/exercise regimen...

That is an idea :D

[KHarvey16]

A private business choosing what to sell is sure as hell not censorship. What a ridiculous idea. Mention it to your boss and see what they say. You aren't just worried these are poorly written or have uninteresting stories, but feel they don't belong in a section that gives the impression the information is accurate(or the medicine effective). Maybe get a doctor from the hospital to leave some feedback with management.

[daviyoung]

I don't know that it would be considered censorship as they can get it just as easily elsewhere. Also I don't really mind even if it is censorship. If banning someone selling hydrochloric acid disguised as lemonade is censorship, then I'm cool with that. What other books would that logic lead to us not stocking? :S

Anything else you feel is pure fabrication, junk, bunkem or garbage. Will it just stop at medicine and health? Or do will it extend to general science books, historical books, religious books, political books? I'd like to see an example of one of these erroneous books though, just to see what you're working with.

[half a moon]

Give an example. I find it hard to believe the books are telling people to use something dangerous. Probably just overreacting about herbs.

[KHarvey16]

Give an example. I find it hard to believe the books are telling people to use something dangerous. Probably just overreacting about herbs.

Giving the impression that something ineffective works to treat some condition or illness can prevent the person from getting actual treatment in a timely fashion or at all.

[OttomanScribe]

Anything else you feel is pure fabrication, junk, bunkem or garbage. Will it just stop at medicine and health? Or do will it extend to general science books, historical books, religious books, political books? I'd like to see an example of one of these erroneous books though, just to see what you're working with.

There are only one or two general science books that are bad, and they aren't harmful just crappy. Same with 'self-help' stuff like the Secret. We don't sell any religion books, and the politics/history ones aren't in the same league.

Give an example. I find it hard to believe the books are telling people to use something dangerous. Probably just overreacting about herbs.

Homeopathy books and books that claim that certain foods cure cancer are a couple of examples.

[OttomanScribe]

A private business choosing what to sell is sure as hell not censorship. What a ridiculous idea. Mention it to your boss and see what they say. You aren't just worried these are poorly written or have uninteresting stories, but feel they don't belong in a section that gives the impression the information is accurate(or the medicine effective). Maybe get a doctor from the hospital to leave some feedback with management.

I would do that but my position is precarious and my boss inclined towards such things. Maybe I could put them in 'New Age' rather than medicine. Wouldn't be hard to reclassify them.. would that be a bad thing to do?

[daviyoung]

Homeopathy books and books that claim that certain foods cure cancer are a couple of examples.

They explicitly state that?

[Volimar]

Look up books on breatharianism for example, then check out this thread.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=471911

They explicitly state that?

They don't have to. Instead they say things like "The fullshittius tribe of the Amazon has long known that licking butterfly anuses worked wonder against many kinds of cancer."

By saying that others claim it works, they get away with not saying it themselves.

[Sho_Nuff82]

You work at a bookstore, shouldn't your first concern be selling as many books as possible and getting that money? If I was your manager and I saw you actively turning people away from the merchandise you would be fired on the spot. You're in no position to scrutinize or verify every piece of literature on your shelves, and some alternative therapies (especially for cancer) do have merit.

[KHarvey16]

I would do that but my position is precarious and my boss inclined towards such things. Maybe I could put them in 'New Age' rather than medicine. Wouldn't be hard to reclassify them.. would that be a bad thing to do?

Are you normally expected to take the initiative and classify or reclassify things on your own? I would think it was ok but if it's outside the normal scope of your job you might get a bad reaction from your boss.

[OttomanScribe]

You work at a bookstore, shouldn't your first concern be selling as many books as possible and getting that money? If I was your manager and I saw you actively turning people away from the merchandise you would be fired on the spot. You're in no position to scrutinize or verify every piece of literature on your shelves, and some alternative therapies (especially for cancer) do have merit.

No. They are called 'alternative' because they are no real medicine. If they worked, they wouldn't be called alternative, they would just be called medicine.

I wouldn't sell cigarettes. If I believe something is harmful, I don't think that any economic imperative would trump that fact. Same reason I quite a job that required me to sell porn. My first concern isn't getting money.

My manager has seen me actively turn people away from bad books. She doesn't have a problem with it, people ask our opinion on such things and I think that it would do disservice to the store and myself if I lied to them.

[SirChained]

and some alternative therapies (especially for cancer) do have merit.

Yeah, like Dr. Burzyinski's piss treatment.

[OttomanScribe]

They explicitly state that?

As Volimar said, they use anecdotes and misleading sentence structure to claim such things.

Are you normally expected to take the initiative and classify or reclassify things on your own? I would think it was ok but if it's outside the normal scope of your job you might get a bad reaction from your boss.

It is something I do, yes.

[Sho_Nuff82]

Yeah, like Dr. Burzyinski's piss treatment.

?

I'm talking about diet therapies. There are metabolites that reduce the risk, growth, and spread of certain cancers.

[KHarvey16]

It is something I do, yes.

Do that and explain your reason for doing it(probably focus on your responsibility to the customers to present accurately indexed or classified materials). Don't stay silent and have it come off passive aggressive!

[daviyoung]

As Volimar said, they use anecdotes and misleading sentence structure to claim such things.

Well there's nothing you can do about cleverly worded volatile headline titles I'm afraid. It's marketing, and most people are able to see through the 'may lead to' and 'sources claim'.

I don't see why they're not in the homeopathic/new age section though, especially if they're sharing shelf space with legitimate journals and textbooks. It cheapens the bookstore letting them mingle like that.

[Blunt]

Turning them away? You should be exploiting them. Sell those new-age books to rich loonies then get the add-on sale with a fist full of St John's Wort covered in cobwebs and coffee grounds for the bargain price of $39.99 plus tax. Guaranteed to cure everything from erectile dysfunction to brain cancer*.

*Warning - guarantee not an actual guarantee.

You'll be the best salesperson at your workplace and live smugly knowing you are doing Darwin's work. What a two-fer.

[OttomanScribe]

Gaf 2, Problems 0.

Who knew I would resolve two quandries in one evening. Okay, reclassify pseudo science bs as 'new age' and tell my manager why.

Blunt I'm already the best salesperson at my workplace, and I don't need to sell quakery to rich loonies, that is what architecture books are for :D

[marrec]

Well there's nothing you can do about cleverly worded volatile headline titles I'm afraid. It's marketing, and most people are able to see through the 'may lead to' and 'sources claim'. I don't see why they're not in the homeopathic/new age section though, especially if they're sharing shelf space with legitimate journals and textbooks. It cheapens the bookstore letting them mingle like that.

Most book stores sully their 'Health' section with bullshit on Homeopathy or Acupuncture or their ilk. Pseudoscience is extremely dangerous especially for desperate people.

OP, you do the correct thing. You may mention to the owner of the store that selling these types of dangerous books to desperate people is immoral, but you cannot stop him from selling them and you certainly can't stop someone from buying them. Just express your opinion to the person and hope that they are reasonable.

[OttomanScribe]

Most book stores sully their 'Health' section with bullshit on Homeopathy or Acupuncture or their ilk. Pseudoscience is extremely dangerous especially for desperate people. OP, you do the correct thing. You may mention to the owner of the store that selling these types of dangerous books to desperate people is immoral, but you cannot stop him from selling them and you certainly can't stop someone from buying them. Just express your opinion to the person and hope that they are reasonable.

I know she is kind of new agey so I'm not going to bother so much with the owner. She takes very little interest in the day to day, so I might just tell the dude in charge of recieving. I manage the store at nights anyway so if she asks I'll just say it was discretionary.

Yeah, the health sections of bookstores are horribly full of the stuff. I don't get why publishers are cool with it.. oh I do. $$$

Sucks though, especially as it is near a hospital. A man I greatly respected recently passed away from cancer, spending his money on some bs kangan water thing and telling other people about it. Stuff is deeply morally abhorent.

[Hoo-doo]

You work at a bookstore, shouldn't your first concern be selling as many books as possible and getting that money? If I was your manager and I saw you actively turning people away from the merchandise you would be fired on the spot. You're in no position to scrutinize or verify every piece of literature on your shelves, and some alternative therapies (especially for cancer) do have merit.

I'm glad the OP isn't as devoid of morals as you apparently are.

When you feel strongly about something like this, you should be able to discuss this with your superiors, see how they stand on the subject. Just a quick warning label that people should consult actual physicians if they are struggling with their health could possibly lead to them seeking proper treatment sooner instead of wishing the symptoms away with pseudoscience.

[jkoch]

? I'm talking about diet therapies. There are metabolites that reduce the risk, growth, and spread of certain cancers.

Everybody agrees that a healthy diet can reduce the incidence of some cancers. That being said, can you point to a well designed (randomized controlled trial) that shows that cancer can be treated through diet therapies. As far as I know, the protocols from Gerson, Gonzales, et al. have not held up to scientific scrutiny.

[shira]

No. They are called 'alternative' because they are no real medicine. If they worked, they wouldn't be called alternative, they would just be called medicine. I wouldn't sell cigarettes. If I believe something is harmful, I don't think that any economic imperative would trump that fact. Same reason I quite a job that required me to sell porn. My first concern isn't getting money. My manager has seen me actively turn people away from bad books. She doesn't have a problem with it, people ask our opinion on such things and I think that it would do disservice to the store and myself if I lied to them.

Your assumption that medicine proper or medical doctors are infallible. When in fact the patient is just as important in the healing process. If a patient believes in an outcome that is some pretty strong stuff right/wrong.

Most of medicine is drugs nowadays which are not 100%. Surgery depends a lot on the surgeon. So people need to believe other options exist that fit their beliefs or religions too. Also there are lots of people where medicine has failed them.

[marrec]

Your assumption that medicine proper or medical doctors are infallible. When in fact the patient is just as important in the healing process. If a patient believes in an outcome that is some pretty strong stuff right/wrong. Most of medicine is drugs nowadays which are not 100%. Surgery depends a lot on the surgeon. So people need to believe other options exist that fit their beliefs or religions too. Also there are lots of people where medicine has failed them.

Okay...

That's not medicine though, that's bunk.

[andycapps]

There's a difference between eating the right foods or taking supplements to make yourself healthier and more resistant to cancers or other diseases, and between claiming that if you buy this snake oil that it'll cure your cancer "naturally." My brother in law is like this and if you say you have a headache he'll have an herb you should take. Or if you have allergies acting up because it's spring, there's an herb you can take. If you have an ear infection, you should make some olive oil and garlic mixture and put it in your ear. The list goes on.

Is some of the above beneficial? Maybe.. There are good things in the above that can help your bodies defenses, but to swear off modern medicine is just foolish. It's why we're living so long now.

[marrec]

There's a difference between eating the right foods or taking supplements to make yourself healthier and more resistant to cancers or other diseases, and between claiming that if you buy this snake oil that it'll cure your cancer "naturally." My brother in law is like this and if you say you have a headache he'll have an herb you should take. Or if you have allergies acting up because it's spring, there's an herb you can take. If you have an ear infection, you should make some olive oil and garlic mixture and put it in your ear. The list goes on. Is some of the above beneficial? Maybe.. There are good things in the above that can help your bodies defenses, but to swear off modern medicine is just foolish. It's why we're living so long now.

Those things above should be in the subsection 'Diet'. A good diet is important to living a healthy life.

[SquiddyCracker]

Much respect to you OP for not letting money stop you from stopping misinformed people from wasting their money/time and possibly getting hurt.

[jkoch]

There's a difference between eating the right foods or taking supplements to make yourself healthier and more resistant to cancers or other diseases, and between claiming that if you buy this snake oil that it'll cure your cancer "naturally." My brother in law is like this and if you say you have a headache he'll have an herb you should take. Or if you have allergies acting up because it's spring, there's an herb you can take. If you have an ear infection, you should make some olive oil and garlic mixture and put it in your ear. The list goes on. Is some of the above beneficial? Maybe.. There are good things in the above that can help your bodies defenses, but to swear off modern medicine is just foolish. It's why we're living so long now.

Many herbs contain pharmacologically active substances, although the dosage varies widely and they're impure. But for all intense and purposes, those herbs are drugs.

[Dead Man]

I think you should speak to your boss, but not at the expense of your job. You should also try and steer customers towards the good books, and away from the shit. I agree with your thoughts on quackery, but ultimately, the laws in Australia side with the quacks.

I thought you were in Adelaide, I can't think of any famous bookshops left in this town, let alone near a hospital
/GAFstalker.

[andycapps]

Those things above should be in the subsection 'Diet'. A good diet is important to living a healthy life.

Exactly, and if someone is eating a good diet in the first place then supplements are mostly unnecessary.

[OttomanScribe]

Your assumption that medicine proper or medical doctors are infallible. When in fact the patient is just as important in the healing process. If a patient believes in an outcome that is some pretty strong stuff right/wrong.

Where is that in my assumptions? I don't think I ever said that proper medicine or qualified doctors are infallible. Medicine is a complex science and mistakes get made, ask any doctor and they will tell you the same thing.

Most of medicine is drugs nowadays which are not 100%. Surgery depends a lot on the surgeon. So people need to believe other options exist that fit their beliefs or religions too. Also there are lots of people where medicine has failed them.

Medicine is sometimes ineffective, it is not some kind of holy grail. All of that is really a non sequitur isn't it?

The fallibilities of medical science do not make quackery any less quackery. Just because we may not have a perfect cure for cancer does not mean frying an egg and putting it on your elbow or diluting eye of newt will do so.

[ToxicAdam]

How the vitamin and nutritional supplement industry is allowed to get away with what they do is beyond me. Dubious advertising claims, ingredients that are not vigorously tested and little to no quality control of the product they do sell.

The worst part is it preys on the very people that government should be protecting .. the sick, the elderly and the poor.

[OttomanScribe]

I think you should speak to your boss, but not at the expense of your job. You should also try and steer customers towards the good books, and away from the shit. I agree with your thoughts on quackery, but ultimately, the laws in Australia side with the quacks. I thought you were in Adelaide, I can't think of any famous bookshops left in this town, let alone near a hospital /GAFstalker.

Sydney :D

The laws are getting better though. Apparently there is some good stuff in the budget as well.

[The Lamp]

Give an example. I find it hard to believe the books are telling people to use something dangerous. Probably just overreacting about herbs.

Kevin Trudeau's book Natural Cures They Don't Want You to Know About (and his TV infomercial) advised people to drink spoonfuls of vinegar if they have acid reflux disease to trick your body into producing less acid.

When we were a less informed folk, my mother and I tried it. Never again.

[Dead Man]

Sydney :D The laws are getting better though. Apparently there is some good stuff in the budget as well.

LOL, there you go then, don't know why I thought Adelaide.

[ConfusingJazz]

How the vitamin and nutritional supplement industry is allowed to get away with what they do is beyond me. Dubious advertising claims, ingredients that are not vigorously tested and little to no quality control of the product they do sell. The worst part is it preys on the very people that government should be protecting .. the sick, the elderly and the poor.

In the US, I believe you can blame Orrin Hatch and Utah.

[OttomanScribe]

LOL, there you go then, don't know why I thought Adelaide.

A previous avatar pic was of me in Radelaide, maybe that's why?

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Look up books on breatharianism for example, then check out this thread. http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=471911 They don't have to. Instead they say things like "The fullshittius tribe of the Amazon has long known that licking butterfly anuses worked wonder against many kinds of cancer." By saying that others claim it works, they get away with not saying it themselves.

You mean books like Kevin Trudeau's "Natural Cures "They" Don't Want You to Know About" is bullshit? But he said the government was trying to silence him to get more money from big pharma!

It sucks but I'm not sure what you can do since I think it will cause a lot more problems with book bannings than these books probably will unfortunately.

[Dead Man]

A previous avatar pic was of me in Radelaide, maybe that's why?

On the mall with the pigs, yeah, probably that was it.

[shira]

Where is that in my assumptions? I don't think I ever said that proper medicine or qualified doctors are infallible. Medicine is a complex science and mistakes get made, ask any doctor and they will tell you the same thing. Medicine is sometimes ineffective, it is not some kind of holy grail. All of that is really a non sequitur isn't it? The fallibilities of medical science do not make quackery any less quackery. Just because we may not have a perfect cure for cancer does not mean frying an egg and putting it on your elbow or diluting eye of newt will do so.

My point is that people are curious for knowledge right or wrong. If you filter knowledge with your biases what does that make you?

Do you sell religious books in your store?

[Chichikov]

How the vitamin and nutritional supplement industry is allowed to get away with what they do is beyond me. Dubious advertising claims, ingredients that are not vigorously tested and little to no quality control of the product they do sell. The worst part is it preys on the very people that government should be protecting .. the sick, the elderly and the poor.

You can mostly thank Orrin Hatch for that.

Edit: beaten.

[marrec]

My point is that people are curious for knowledge right or wrong. If you filter knowledge with your biases what does that make you? Do you sell religious books in your store?

But he shouldn't have any moral qualms about telling people that the knowledge contained is Wrong with a capital W.

[KHarvey16]

My point is that people are curious for knowledge right or wrong. If you filter knowledge with your biases what does that make you? Do you sell religious books in your store?

It's a private business. It can sell or not sell anything it wants. It doesn't restrict anyone's access to the information because they can still buy it somewhere else. This is really a ridiculous line of thought.