[Jburton]

It's less an issue of the culture being different, and more an issue of their culture imposing and disrupting that of other's. The two are simply not compatible. Also, defending some of the worse aspects of common traveler society as 'culture' is pretty dumb. There's lots of 'culture' worldwide that the Western world (rightly) gets outraged about. Aspects of traveler society is not immune to moralistic scrutiny just because it's different.

Certainly but it does not give anyone the right to come in from the outside and try and impose their ideas.

Change can only come from the inside.

[robertsan21]

haha shit I got no idea what is going on in this thread or the videos that has been posted, but damn these people are funny!

I dont understand a single word, at first I thought it was romanian or something but they are atually speaking english of some kind? hahaha

[KO Traveling Hobo]

So you wish to destroy a culture / an ethnic group (which they are supposedly) because it does not match your own. People need to stop measuring cultures against their own.

So civil rights movements are bad because they destroy countries' cultures? I don't understand why child abuse and deprivation of women's rights should ever be given a free pass.

[daviyoung]

Change can only come from the inside.

Uh-huh. Right. This is turning into a bait thread.

[Bootaaay]

I live near the Dale Farm site and it's amazing to see the affect the travellers had on the Crays Hill area - once traveller children started attending the school, parents pulled their children out because of the violence and threats towards them from the travellers, while others simply left the area altogether as their house prices fell sharply.

The trouble is, their children are indoctrinated by the culture at a very young age - and whatever the merits of their culture are, the one irrefutable aspect of it I've seen with my own eyes for the 24 years I've lived here, is that the travellers simply do not think the normal social rules apply to them. Here's one example - in shops, the travellers will always walk straight to the front of the queue and demand to be served. If anyone complains, that's grounds for a fight, and that's the same mentality they apply to every single situation. When the travellers walk in, they demand service and relish in the fact that no one has the lack of sense to stand up to them. Here's a direct quote from the owner of my local kebab shop after they sold my friend's freshly cooked order to a traveller who barged to the front of the queue;

"It's just easier to get them out of here as quick as possible and try not to say anything that'll make them kick off".

I feel bad for the kids that are stuck in this lifestyle, as often they are left with no future outside of it, but it also makes me angry when people blindly support the travellers and criticise those their actions have negatively affected as racist or xenophobic. The whole Dale Farm debacle was disgusting, with people like Vanessa Redgrave turning up on the news to declare that the council are "ethnically cleansing" the traveller population by trying to enforce planning permission laws, and the protesters spouting pure falsehoods that the media just lapped up, while no one seemed to care about the culture of intimidation and fear that the travellers had built up in the area, nor the string of crimes attributed to them over the past decade.

[Funky Papa]

Certainly but it does not give anyone the right to come in from the outside and try and impose their ideas. Change can only come from the inside.

I've already explained this in previous threads, but it bears repeating: Spain used to have HUGE FUCKING ISSUES with its gypsy population (read: actual romani people). They only began to integrate when they were legally forced to school their children, both boys and girls, which meant they had to mix them with gadjos (non romani people) instead of allowing them to roam free.

Sometimes change needs to be forced.

[Jburton]

I've already explained this in previous threads, but it bears repeating: Spain used to have HUGE FUCKING ISSUES with its gypsy population (read: actual romani people). They only began to integrate when they were legally forced to school their children, both boys and girls, which meant they had to mix them with gadjos (non romani people) instead of allowing them to roam free. Sometimes change needs to be forced.

So a lot of what made them Gypsies was removed, to implement such fundamental change you fundamentally change who the people are.


Imposing your ideas of what is the right and only way to live is undemocratic and slightly facist.

[Sir Fragula]

If the two cultures existed autonomously then that wouldn't be a problem. But they interact, and obviously that's what causes the comparison and the conflict.

You could give the nomad communities in Europe countries of their own to govern, and they'd all fail. Their entire class relies on interaction with those who are settled. The culture is unproductive, or at least perceived to be so.



As for the class/ethnicity debate; as their sole distinguishing characteristic is a socio-economic decision, I really do think it's better to frame the debate around that. The arguments made are class arguments, not ethnic ones.

[Jburton]

Uh-huh. Right. This is turning into a bait thread.

Pardon?

[SmokyDave]

So a lot of what made them Gypsies was removed, to implement such fundamental change you fundamentally change who the people are. Imposing your ideas of what is the right and only way to live is undemocratic and slightly facist.

Or, it's exactly what is needed for social cohesion. That's why we have laws and things to keep people living in a way that we've deemed socially acceptable.

[Funky Papa]

Imposing your ideas of what is the right and only way to live is undemocratic and slightly facist.

Yeah, what this is fascist bullshit about making sure they bring their children to the school so they can learn something and avoid a life of crime and misery.


You slay me.

[Suairyu]

So a lot of what made them Gypsies was removed, to implement such fundamental change you fundamentally change who the people are. Imposing your ideas of what is the right and only way to live is undemocratic and slightly facist.

If you see children being brought up in a destructive environment, you use education to open their eyes. That isn't changing their culture, that's equipping them with the tools needed for them to fight indoctrination and decide what aspects of culture they want to keep for themselves.

To call demanding children be educated "imposing culture" is horrific relativism. The kind that makes people go "well, it's their culture; who are we to judge?" when they hear about female circumcision being practiced in Africa.

Also, as others have pointed out, their culture is 100% reliant on other cultures being established. The traveler groups are reliant on established government's assistance. It's a culture that wouldn't exist today if not for that assitance. Telling them to keep their kids in school isn't exactly out of order.

[Jburton]

Or, it's exactly what is needed for social cohesion. That's why we have laws and things to keep people living in a way that we've deemed socially acceptable.

I agree but these people do not consider themselves part of society, rather outside it.

I suppose methods of change are important ...... interaction rather than imposition.

[Jburton]

Yeah, what this is fascist bullshit about making sure they bring their children to the school so they can learn something and avoid a life of crime and misery. You slay me.

I am just making a point, get off your high horse.


Do you believe people that home school should be forced to send their children to mainstream education?

[BGBW]

Stereotypes only exist because there is some truth to them. The best people to combat the negative stereotype surrounding Irish Travellers are the Irish Travellers themselves. If they stop posting silly fight talk videos online and leaving their gardens in a tip the stereotypes will start to lose substance. At the moment is seems those that are willing to be in the spotlight are not doing the rest of the community any favours as seen by OPs video.

[m0ngo]

Aaaaaand here we go..........

[Jburton]

If you see children being brought up in a destructive environment, you use education to open their eyes. That isn't changing their culture, that's equipping them with the tools needed for them to fight indoctrination and decide what aspects of culture they want to keep for themselves. To call demanding children be educated "imposing culture" is horrific relativism. The kind that makes people go "well, it's their culture; who are we to judge?" when they hear about female circumcision being practiced in Africa.

I agree with educating children of course, as I have stated if you force it on people you will get their backs up, interaction not imposition.

Also linking my post to people giving female circumcision an ok because of culture is a big jump don't you think, almost insinuating I am ok with it.

[BGBW]

Do you believe people that home school should be forced to send their children to mainstream education?

I thought homeschooling still required paperwork to prove the children are getting an education. The problem people are raising is that the children are getting no education past a certain age and in the UK children should be getting one up to the age of 16.

[KO Traveling Hobo]

Do you believe people that home school should be forced to send their children to mainstream education?

I could be totally wrong about this, but doesn't the government have some involvement in homeschooling?

[Suairyu]

Do you believe people that home school should be forced to send their children to mainstream education?

No, but that's because parents homeschooling their kids are still required to educate them to a level equivilant of what the children would achieve in public school. If the parents fail to provide that, then they're forced to place their children in school.

I agree but these people do not consider themselves part of society, rather outside it.

They are factually not. It's a symbiotic relationship. They rely on government grants and laws that allow them to occupy land. They purchase materials from shops and sell goods and services to others.

[SmokyDave]

I agree but these people do not consider themselves part of society, rather outside it.

They're wrong about that though. They use the NHS, they buy and sell goods and services and they rely on society to provide all manner of things.

I suppose methods of change are important ...... interaction rather than imposition.

And when interaction fails?

[Funky Papa]

I am just making a point, get off your high horse. Do you believe people that home school should be forced to send their children to mainstream education?

Here's the thing: traditionally gypsies didn't "home school". They didn't school their children at all unless forced to do so, because their culture labels non romani people as "gadjos" or unclean, and therefore they shouldn't mix with them nor learn their ways.

This kind of behaviour has caused them a tremendous amount of misery, specially since their former nomad lifestyle is no longer feasible in a modern society.

[Jburton]

They're wrong about that though. They use the NHS, they buy and sell goods and services and they rely on society to provide all manner of things. And when interaction fails?

I don't know, I am just trying to be a counter balance to the discussions in here and from examples in my own community where people have interacted with the traveller communities and got womens groups established, access to better housing and and children entering education (something that has increased slowly but surely).

[KO Traveling Hobo]

I don't know, I am just trying to be a counter balance to the discussions in here and from examples in my own community where people have interacted with the traveller communities and got womens groups established, access to better housing and and children entering education (something that has increased slowly but surely).

You might want to put more emphasis on this. Arguing about cultural relativism isn't going to do anyone any favors.

[Suairyu]

I don't know, I am just trying to be a counter balance to the discussions in here and from examples in my own community where people have interacted with the traveller communities and got womens groups established, access to better housing and and children entering education (something that has increased slowly but surely).

... then what on earth were you spouting "cultural enforcement" in your relativistic way for? Your examples are exactly what the people here are takling about.

[Kabouter]

Imposing your ideas of what is the right and only way to live is undemocratic and slightly facist.

Stop it.
Funky Papa is not making an unreasonable argument here, there's no need to shit up the discussion with a remark like that.

[KO Traveling Hobo]

Stop it. Funky Papa is not making an unreasonable argument here, there's no need to shit up the discussion with a remark like that.

To be fair, Jburton is the only poster who's defending them. Without him, there wouldn't even be a discussion in the first place.

[Kabouter]

To be fair, Jburton is the only poster who's defending them. Without him, there wouldn't even be a discussion in the first place.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticizing his argument, I'm criticizing the way in which he's making it. Accusing people of having fascist ideas is not the way to go about things.

[MWS Natural]

What language are they speaking?

[Lirlond]

What language are they speaking?

The Cant

[Vagabundo]

There are a fair amount of these Sulkys in my area. Apart from the hassle of getting stuck behind them in traffic they are not lunatics like these guys.

I live close to two settled traveller roads. They settle them away from everyone, usually in the middle of industrial estates. They mostly keep to themselves and I have never had a problem with them.

All my dealings with travellers have been good. They've never skipped me in a queue, stolen from me or tried to fight me. They tend to be decent people, but are very different from the normal Irish culture. It's easy to get the wrong end of the stick when dealing with a traveller.

What language are they speaking?

English mostly.

[Stasis]

This thread was interesting until one person pretty much ruined it.

I've always been intrigued by gypsy/traveller societies. Gonna watch these "Big Fat Gypsy Wedding" shows to learn more, but I'd like to see a real documentary one day...

[Jburton]

This thread was interesting until one person pretty much ruined it. I've always been intrigued by gypsy/traveller societies. Gonna watch these "Big Fat Gypsy Wedding" shows to learn more, but I'd like to see a real documentary one day...

Who?

[seb_n]

Long time lurker but first post on GAF!

I actually had an experience with some travellers just this weekend.

I live in a relatively small town in the south of England, reasonably up market just on the edge of the New Forest. We have had a few issues with Irish Travellers (not Gypsies) in the past that have not really affected myself but Friday and Saturday of the weekend just gone was my first proper encounter with them. (I'm 27 btw)

A friend and myself decided to do a 24 hour fishing session at the local lake, we popped into the tackle shop to get a few bits and they were talking about travellers, we got talking and it came to light that a couple of traveller families had decided to setup camp at the lake we were headed to. The guys in the tackle shop werent particularly happy about it to say the least. They warned us not to go up there, not to bother fishing as it would be too dodgy with them being around. We decided that no, we would give the travellers the benefit of the doubt and we werent going to be put off by the prospect of them being there...

So we arrive around 6pm, and we see the traveller "camp" at one end of the lake, we decide we would head to the other end, which is our normal swim, and we obviously thought we would stay out the way a little. We start unloading the car and we can see the caravans down the other end of the lake with a group of people sitting around a huge fire that had be built by the side of the lake, not great but not the end of the world.

We set up the tents, set up the rods etc and start fishing, relaxing, having a beer etc, enjoying the time outside.

And then it begun...

Three children appeared out of nowhere, clearly children of the travellers. They seemed fairly well behaved to start with, very strong accents, and using some form of languange. They were asking us questions about what we were doing there, how long we were staying etc. Each time we answered one of their questions they whistled, in a communicative manner down the the caravan, as if letting the adults know what we were upto. It felt pretty sketchy at the point already but we decided to ignore it. They were relentless, contantly going in the tent trying to steal things, picking up our gear and walking away with it. Generally causing a nusance. Asking if they can have stuff, literally using distraction routines to pull us away from our things so they could nick stuff. It got pretty lake (at least late for children of that age to be awake, imo) probably 10pm and they headed away from us. Then the music began... Seriously loud, seriously dulll, seriously repetative country music. Pumping out at a huge volume. We of course ignored it, we werent exaclty going to go over and ask them to turn it down.... We could hear them progressively getting more and more intoxicated, lots of shouting, lots of arguing, we were a little concerned at this point, hoping that they wouldnt remember we were also at the lake. All of a sudden the music stopped and we heard the little boy screaming "Im sorry dad, im sorry" over and over. The father was screaming "Never in my life have a heard such a thing" over and over, clearly very drunk. "Go to bed!" he screamed at the boy, and we heard a caravan door slam. We then heard the boy screaming inside the caravan and the fathers voice (also within the caravan) screaming and beating him. We were REALLY starting to get worried at this point.

It was about midnight when the real fun began. The music had stopped, they had (apparently) gone to bed and all was quiet, we had just caught a few fish so we were feeling pretty good. All of a sudden the caravan door burst open and the father and i presume mother came out, they were having a HUGE arguament, screaming at each other like i had never heard, probably for 15 minutes or so, really horrible stuff from what we could make out. it stopped, for 10 minutes and then it started again, huge rows. The one line that stuck with me was the bloke screaming at the woman "If you come near me i will punch you in the face." Dreadful. It all went quiet after that, who knows what happened. Around 2am we were dozing in the tent and we hear a few male voices getting closer and closer to us, we started to panic a little if im honest, we grabbed whatever we could to use as protection, but they never came, they walked behind the tents and wandered off. Now some people would say they were heading off to earn their living in the early hours but who knows.

After that it was a quiet night, but then in the morning the kids came over again. Harrasing us, trying to steal, generally pestering us. They started to attack the tents with sticks and rocks, pretty annoying really. We did learn that they arent able to read, (the oldest, a girl was 14ish) and they were showing lots of signs of agression at a young age. We ended up packing up and leaving hours before we had intended due to the constant harrasment. Really frustrating.

I guess what i learnt from this was.

Its not ever the kids fault. They must be SO bored with their lifestyle, nothing to do, no-one to interact with, and some really messed up family conditions. Although we were severly pissed off with them by the end, upon reflection, we both felt pretty sorry for them and their circumstances. If they had been kids from a regular background we would have just told them to f**k off, but, due to the nature of their parents we just put up with it. I know this isnt the right way about it but from other replies in this thread i am sure its a common feelling.

I could go on and on about how they were dumping stuff in the lake, destroying the trees and wildlife around the lake, erecting fences round their camp etc but i wont. There is no point. Its a really awful situation for everyone around, the police wont/cant do anything and i cant see a solution in sight.

Anyway, this post is of no consequence, i thought i would just share my experience for the other people in this thread who havent had and dealing with travellers. Its all anecdotal, im not generalising. The only thing i will say is that steriotypes must come from somewhere, but dont forget that the children have no choice in their lifestyle.

Cheers.

[SmokyDave]

This thread was interesting until one person pretty much ruined it. I've always been intrigued by gypsy/traveller societies. Gonna watch these "Big Fat Gypsy Wedding" shows to learn more, but I'd like to see a real documentary one day...

Try and watch the UK version if possible.

One day we ought to have a topic about 'grabbing'. You'll see what that's all about.

[Stasis]

Awesome lake story. Cheers.

Wow, thanks for posting that up. It's all really interesting to read. I admit I'd probably have given up before you and left when the kids were trying to steal everything.

[no angel]

Long time lurker but first post on GAF! I actually had an experience with some travellers just this weekend. I live in a relatively small town in the south of England, reasonably up market just on the edge of the New Forest. We have had a few issues with Irish Travellers (not Gypsies) in the past that have not really affected myself but Friday and Saturday of the weekend just gone was my first proper encounter with them. (I'm 27 btw) A friend and myself decided to do a 24 hour fishing session at the local lake, we popped into the tackle shop to get a few bits and they were talking about travellers, we got talking and it came to light that a couple of traveller families had decided to setup camp at the lake we were headed to. The guys in the tackle shop werent particularly happy about it to say the least. They warned us not to go up there, not to bother fishing as it would be too dodgy with them being around. We decided that no, we would give the travellers the benefit of the doubt and we werent going to be put off by the prospect of them being there... So we arrive around 6pm, and we see the traveller "camp" at one end of the lake, we decide we would head to the other end, which is our normal swim, and we obviously thought we would stay out the way a little. We start unloading the car and we can see the caravans down the other end of the lake with a group of people sitting around a huge fire that had be built by the side of the lake, not great but not the end of the world. We set up the tents, set up the rods etc and start fishing, relaxing, having a beer etc, enjoying the time outside. And then it begun... Three children appeared out of nowhere, clearly children of the travellers. They seemed fairly well behaved to start with, very strong accents, and using some form of languange. They were asking us questions about what we were doing there, how long we were staying etc. Each time we answered one of their questions they whistled, in a communicative manner down the the caravan, as if letting the adults know what we were upto. It felt pretty sketchy at the point already but we decided to ignore it. They were relentless, contantly going in the tent trying to steal things, picking up our gear and walking away with it. Generally causing a nusance. Asking if they can have stuff, literally using distraction routines to pull us away from our things so they could nick stuff. It got pretty lake (at least late for children of that age to be awake, imo) probably 10pm and they headed away from us. Then the music began... Seriously loud, seriously dulll, seriously repetative country music. Pumping out at a huge volume. We of course ignored it, we werent exaclty going to go over and ask them to turn it down.... We could hear them progressively getting more and more intoxicated, lots of shouting, lots of arguing, we were a little concerned at this point, hoping that they wouldnt remember we were also at the lake. All of a sudden the music stopped and we heard the little boy screaming "Im sorry dad, im sorry" over and over. The father was screaming "Never in my life have a heard such a thing" over and over, clearly very drunk. "Go to bed!" he screamed at the boy, and we heard a caravan door slam. We then heard the boy screaming inside the caravan and the fathers voice (also within the caravan) screaming and beating him. We were REALLY starting to get worried at this point. It was about midnight when the real fun began. The music had stopped, they had (apparently) gone to bed and all was quiet, we had just caught a few fish so we were feeling pretty good. All of a sudden the caravan door burst open and the father and i presume mother came out, they were having a HUGE arguament, screaming at each other like i had never heard, probably for 15 minutes or so, really horrible stuff from what we could make out. it stopped, for 10 minutes and then it started again, huge rows. The one line that stuck with me was the bloke screaming at the woman "If you come near me i will punch you in the face." Dreadful. It all went quiet after that, who knows what happened. Around 2am we were dozing in the tent and we hear a few male voices getting closer and closer to us, we started to panic a little if im honest, we grabbed whatever we could to use as protection, but they never came, they walked behind the tents and wandered off. Now some people would say they were heading off to earn their living in the early hours but who knows. After that it was a quiet night, but then in the morning the kids came over again. Harrasing us, trying to steal, generally pestering us. They started to attack the tents with sticks and rocks, pretty annoying really. We did learn that they arent able to read, (the oldest, a girl was 14ish) and they were showing lots of signs of agression at a young age. We ended up packing up and leaving hours before we had intended due to the constant harrasment. Really frustrating. I guess what i learnt from this was. Its not ever the kids fault. They must be SO bored with their lifestyle, nothing to do, no-one to interact with, and some really messed up family conditions. Although we were severly pissed off with them by the end, upon reflection, we both felt pretty sorry for them and their circumstances. If they had been kids from a regular background we would have just told them to f**k off, but, due to the nature of their parents we just put up with it. I know this isnt the right way about it but from other replies in this thread i am sure its a common feelling. I could go on and on about how they were dumping stuff in the lake, destroying the trees and wildlife around the lake, erecting fences round their camp etc but i wont. There is no point. Its a really awful situation for everyone around, the police wont/cant do anything and i cant see a solution in sight. Anyway, this post is of no consequence, i thought i would just share my experience for the other people in this thread who havent had and dealing with travellers. Its all anecdotal, im not generalising. The only thing i will say is that steriotypes must come from somewhere, but dont forget that the children have no choice in their lifestyle. Cheers.

I would have left way before you did, fair play for sticking it out as long as you did.

[Jburton]

Try and watch the UK version if possible. One day we ought to have a topic about 'grabbing'. You'll see what that's all about.

My girlfriend saw that episode and was stunned to say the least.

[Dan27]

I am working at one of our customers sites today, and it's about half a mile from Dale Farm, near Basildon. Scene of the almighty eviction a few months back. Cant say much more to what Bootaaay has already written, what I can say is that I've been living here for exactly five years and the news I've heard from all the travellers has never been positive.

My impression is that they are truly a different breed, and seem to be completely oblivious to the normal laws of the land and thus will (sadly) always be regarded negatively by the majority of society. Personally, I have never had one-on-one interaction with one or more of them face to face, and will reserve proper judgement until I do.. but from Seb's tale I can only fear for the next generation of travellers given their lack of education.

[SmokyDave]

My girlfriend saw that episode and was stunned to say the least.

Yeah, it's certainly 'something' the first time you see it. No matter how much it's framed as consensual, the girls sure don't make it look that way.

[Hank Scorpio]

G'WAN BAI G'WAN BAI!

[Kentpaul]

They steal the metal to sell it off right? A family went to my mate's house after his kitchen was re-done (the scrap was left in the garden until the builders would clean it up) and asked if they can take the scrap away. I wouldn't be surprised if they just jacked it in the night anyway. No harm I guess but unless they sell it off, I always wondered what the fascination was. Probably build some mothership.

They make a killing on selling the metal to scrapyards.

Better stealing an old kitchen from a garden than ripping up half a mile of train track in a night..

[Vagabundo]

nm

[SmokyDave]

nm

FWIW, I'm aware it's an Irish traveller thing and not a general gypsy habit. It still looks bogus.

(and with that usage of 'bogus', I commence my 90's language week).

[Vagabundo]

FWIW, I'm aware it's an Irish traveller thing and not a general gypsy habit. It still looks bogus. (and with that usage of 'bogus', I commence my 90's language week).

I removed the link because it wasn't the one I thought it was.

Many travellers aren't happy with the program. They admit "grabbing" does go on, but it's not a widespread practice.

I'd take everything on that show with a grain of salt.

He's one that says more, but not the original one I wanted. Can't find it.

One older gypsy mum with a teenage daughter, who won't give us her name (gypsies are notoriously private) says: "No one liked the series, it presented us in a bad light. The grabbing was the worst thing. It does go on - some teenage boys do it - but it's not as widespread as it was made out. Gypsies have firm morals "I don't agree with it and neither do many other travellers. It's tantamount to sexual assault. I have two teenage boys and I wouldn't want them to do it."

http://www.fabulousmag.co.uk/fabmag/...t-gypsies.html

[CHEEZMO™]

Every so often (perhaps once a year on average) they set up camp at a disused quarry near where I live. Last time they were here they stole my neighbours metal railings he was going to put around a car bay he was constructing.

Every couple of days when they're around they decide to drive at walking pace around the entire estate with a flatbed van shouting through a megaphone at people to bring out their rag and bone (clearly they mean metal they can sell for scrap - the van would often have metal items in the back).
Seriously, they'd even say "rag and bone" over and over. Even shutting the windows doesn't drown out the noise.

They're generally a nuisance when they pop up and I, nor anyone I've ever met, have had any positive experiences. Thankfully they move on after about a week.

[ruttyboy]

Here's my balanced post on this subject.

The good:- When I was changing my car's oil sump on the street (I'm poor and have no driveway), a man drove up in a flatbed Transit van. He started speaking to me but I couldn't understand him, eventually through sign language and some guttural English I worked out he was asking for my used sump which was lying on the floor (as well as my cat, but I was putting that back on). I was happy to let him have it as it saved me a trip to the tip (dump for the US people). I later realised that he was most likely a traveller, I guess they cruise round the streets looking for people to help who happen to be working on their cars *ahem*.

The bad:- A friend of mine lived in a small town in the south of England. He told me of when he was young a traveller had been caught stealing from someone's house and had been chased by the police. In order to get away he jumped in the local pond and submerged himself. Where he drowned... Apparently loads of people turned up to the funeral and were describing him as a hero and stuff.

The ugly:- If 'grabbing' is real, it's at least sexual assault and possibly rape.

[SmokyDave]

I removed the link because it wasn't the one I thought it was. Many travellers aren't happy with the program. They admit "grabbing" does go on, but it's not a widespread practice. I'd take everything on that show with a grain of salt. He's one that says more, but not the original one I wanted. Can't find it. http://www.fabulousmag.co.uk/fabmag/...t-gypsies.html

Honestly, I take all shows of that nature with a huge pinch of salt. Doubly so if they're on BBC 3.

[Lakitu]

This is what I heard at the end when they all started crowding around: 'wibble wabble wibble wibble.' What the fuck are they saying?

[leadbelly]

I live near the Dale Farm site and it's amazing to see the affect the travellers had on the Crays Hill area - once traveller children started attending the school, parents pulled their children out because of the violence and threats towards them from the travellers, while others simply left the area altogether as their house prices fell sharply. The trouble is, their children are indoctrinated by the culture at a very young age - and whatever the merits of their culture are, the one irrefutable aspect of it I've seen with my own eyes for the 24 years I've lived here, is that the travellers simply do not think the normal social rules apply to them. Here's one example - in shops, the travellers will always walk straight to the front of the queue and demand to be served. If anyone complains, that's grounds for a fight, and that's the same mentality they apply to every single situation. When the travellers walk in, they demand service and relish in the fact that no one has the lack of sense to stand up to them. Here's a direct quote from the owner of my local kebab shop after they sold my friend's freshly cooked order to a traveller who barged to the front of the queue; "It's just easier to get them out of here as quick as possible and try not to say anything that'll make them kick off". I feel bad for the kids that are stuck in this lifestyle, as often they are left with no future outside of it, but it also makes me angry when people blindly support the travellers and criticise those their actions have negatively affected as racist or xenophobic. The whole Dale Farm debacle was disgusting, with people like Vanessa Redgrave turning up on the news to declare that the council are "ethnically cleansing" the traveller population by trying to enforce planning permission laws, and the protesters spouting pure falsehoods that the media just lapped up, while no one seemed to care about the culture of intimidation and fear that the travellers had built up in the area, nor the string of crimes attributed to them over the past decade.

Oh. I recall reading a news story about that place.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15020118
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14929208