[Lionel Mandrake]

Damn. Bill Gates needs to come back. He should drop the whole "saving the world" thing for a while.

[eastmen]

That's hilarious. It worked so well for them in the phone market too. They can't possibly fail.

If you really need Firefox or chrome on your tablet then buy a x86 tablet.

IE 9 is much better than Firefox at this point anyway. IE 10 should be even better

[antonz]

arent they basically opening themselves to legal issues with anti-competative behavior?

[Zoe]

arent they basically opening themselves to legal issues with anti-competative behavior?

Is Apple?

[eastmen]

arent they basically opening themselves to legal issues with anti-competative behavior?

If apple who has most of the tablet market can get away with it then MS who has a few % at most of the tablet market should be able to

[quaere]

Damn. Bill Gates needs to come back. He should drop the whole "saving the world" thing for a while.

I don't think you remember Bill Gates. He deliberately held back the web and innovation with IE lock-in to try to eliminate the threat other browsers posed to the importance of Windows. Microsoft plays far better with others since he has been gone. It's probably not unrelated that Microsoft isn't the juggernaut it once was either.

Or are you saying he wouldn't be stupid enough to cripple a product of his in the market like this? If that, then yeah, you're right.

[Marty Chinn]

You can buy a heavy power-guzzling and hot x86 tablet and have NO COMPROMISES.

[rhfb]

Windows Vista : Windows 7 :: Windows 8 : Windows 9 I hope. Good thing 7 is pretty damn good and I have no need for 8, because the consumer preview is hot garbage.

[antonz]

Is Apple?

Apple has always used the we are the small guys dont hurt us behavior to avoid it. I suppose in the tablet market Microsoft might get to try that defense but I dont think Microsoft has the image to use it.

[saunderez]

If you really need Firefox or chrome on your tablet then buy a x86 tablet.

I'll more likely buy a new Android tablet so I can get the battery life benefits of an ARM CPU and still be able to use the browser of my choice. Microsoft gets nothing from me instead.

[ty_hot]

If you really need Firefox or chrome on your tablet then buy a x86 tablet. IE 9 is much better than Firefox at this point anyway. IE 10 should be even better

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1orMXD_Ijbs

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Apple has always used the we are the small guys dont hurt us behavior to avoid it. I suppose in the tablet market Microsoft might get to try that defense but I dont think Microsoft has the image to use it.

It doesn't matter the image, it's not factually correct. Apple is a majority, Microsoft is a minority. There is nothing else to it.

[rozay]

I'm actually liking windows 8 on my laptop, but with every bit of new news on windows RT the number of reasons why I would recommend an ARM windows tablet over an iPad to a friend decreases.

I hope intel can save the platform for me (lol)

[Dreams-Visions]

Guess I won't be buying an ARM-based Windows 8 tablet.

Because I'll be damned if I'm limited to Internet Explorer for my web browsing. Fuck that noise.

[numble]

I think Clover Trail tablets will still be heavier, guzzle more power, and have less battery life than ARM tablets. Show me some performance comparisons instead of a idealized spec sheet.

[dLMN8R]

Why is this news? Microsoft has been saying for months that everything on ARM needs to go through the store.

Mozilla can absolutely release a browser through the store if they wish, but it'll be limited in the same ways every other Store app is limited.


Also - I'm looking for Chrome and Firefox on the iPad App Store and I can't find them. Can someone please send me a link?

[Marty Chinn]

I think Clover Trail tablets will still be heavier, guzzle more power, and have less battery life than ARM tablets. Show me some performance comparisons instead of a idealized spec sheet.

Who cares if the ARM tablets might be a bit more efficient on power? If Intel can come through on that list of targets, it will be good enough. I don't have complete faith they can given their state of mobile processors, but I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt for now.

[numble]

Mozilla can absolutely release a browser through the store if they wish, but it'll be limited in the same ways every other Store app is limited.

The article says nobody can release a browser on the store.

Microsoft Deputy General Counsel David Heiner told Mozilla it won't permit other browsers for two reasons...

[eastmen]

I'll more likely buy a new Android tablet so I can get the battery life benefits of an ARM CPU and still be able to use the browser of my choice. Microsoft gets nothing from me instead.

windows 8 tablets will get better battery life. Windows itself is less of a resource hog and the tablets coming in the fall will be using amd 32/28nm and intel 22nm parts.

[saunderez]

Also - I'm looking for Chrome and Firefox on the iPad App Store and I can't find them. Can someone please send me a link?

Apple has the same restrictions Microsoft is imposing. Microsoft is free to take this route but we're free to not like it. Try checking the Android Play Store if you want some web browser diversity, there's plenty on there.

windows 8 tablets will get better battery life. Windows itself is less of a resource hog and the tablets coming in the fall will be using amd 32/28nm and intel 22nm parts.

I'll believe it when I see it. We've been promised miraculous battery life for netbooks for years and my AMD E-350 netbook running Windows 7 still has abysmal battery life.

[quaere]

Ok, some clarification definitely needed here.

The CNET article doesn't pick up on this but other media and Mozilla's official letter says Firefox is banned from Classic but not from Metro.

So the question for people that know about Windows 8 then becomes given the guidelines of the Metro environment/store, is it possible/reasonable to implement a full alternative browser engine such as Gecko in Metro?

Mozilla's post seems to suggest it is not possible -

However, Windows on ARM prohibits any browser except for Internet Explorer from running in the privileged “Windows Classic” environment. In practice, this means that only Internet Explorer will be able to perform many of the advanced computing functions vital to modern browsers in terms of speed, stability, and security to which users have grown accustomed.

[Xisiqomelir]

http://news.cnet.com/8301-1001_3-574...-mozilla-says/

Considering ARM Windows' market penetration, this isn't going to do much for IE's user share.

So weird that MS is playing by Apple's playbook quite often the past few years.

hahahaohwow.jpg

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Apple has the same restrictions Microsoft is imposing. Microsoft is free to take this route but we're free to not like it. Try checking the Android Play Store if you want some web browser diversity, there's plenty on there.

Yes, but it also seems silly people vowing never to buy one when apple does the same thing and we don't see the same aggression over it.

[saunderez]

Yes, but it also seems silly people vowing never to buy one when apple does the same thing and we don't see the same aggression over it.

Maybe those people just haven't bought an iPad or bought an Android tablet instead. I was definitely considering upgrading to a ARM Windows tablet and that options been taken off the table by this news. If I wanted a closed platform I'd buy an iPad and I'm sure most other people would too.

[eastmen]

Apple has the same restrictions Microsoft is imposing. Microsoft is free to take this route but we're free to not like it. Try checking the Android Play Store if you want some web browser diversity, there's plenty on there. I'll believe it when I see it.

Guess you just have to wait 6 months or so to see it . Do you not believe that x86-64bit chips can sip power also ? Do you think only arm chips are capable of that ?

Look at intel cpus of the past 3-4 years , they keep getting more powerful on the desktop and keep using less power . This fall amd and intel will both be coming at the tablet market hard , its a new sector of growth and intel will use their process advantage and amd will use their gpu advantage.

http://www.engadget.com/2012/04/27/b...-leaked-image/

HP is certianly thinking they will be selling a x86 10.1inch tablet with 8-10 hours of battery life thats 9.2mm thick and 1.5lbs

Doesn't seem to bad considering the ipad 3 is 9.4mm thick and 1.44lbs and gets 9-10 hours of battery life.

[Tobor]

Apple allows 3rd party browsers, as long as they are based on the webkit engine.

Is MS allowing 3rd party browsers based on IE's engine? Or no third party browsers at all?

[kevinski]

Is MS allowing 3rd party browsers based on IE's engine? Or no third party browsers at all?

Yeah, there are third-party browsers on Windows Phone that use IE's engine.

[rozay]

Why is this news? Microsoft has been saying for months that everything on ARM needs to go through the store. Mozilla can absolutely release a browser through the store if they wish, but it'll be limited in the same ways every other Store app is limited. Also - I'm looking for Chrome and Firefox on the iPad App Store and I can't find them. Can someone please send me a link?

I feel like if people wanted to use a platform with a closed ecosystem like this they already would've picked up an iPad. The "one windows" slogan ended up being bullshit I guess!

Someone jog my memory-what are the key features that windows brings to the table with their arm tablets that android and iphone don't, aside from the metro interface?

[saunderez]

Guess you just have to wait 6 months or so to see it . Do you not believe that x86-64bit chips can sip power also ? Do you think only arm chips are capable of that ?

At this point no I don't think they can match ARM CPUs for battery life. I'm happy to be proven wrong but the devices I've used to date don't come close.

[Tobor]

Yeah, there are third-party browsers on Windows Phone that use IE's engine.

That's what I thought, just wanted to make sure.

[Marty Chinn]

I feel like if people wanted to use a platform with a closed ecosystem like this they already would've picked up an iPad. The "one windows" slogan ended up being bullshit I guess!

Nothing has really changed on the "one windows" slogan. It's still the same. We all knew ARM would only run Metro apps. Only x86 would allow you to have x86 and Metro apps. Nothing has changed here on that front.

[Somnid]

Ok, some clarification definitely needed here. The CNET article doesn't pick up on this but other media and Mozilla's official letter says Firefox is banned from Classic but not from Metro. So the question for people that know about Windows 8 then becomes given the guidelines of the Metro environment/store, is it possible/reasonable to implement a full alternative browser engine such as Gecko in Metro? Mozilla's post seems to suggest it is not possible -

People are really missing this part. Nothing but Office and IE run in classic mode on WinRT and this was always the case. Classic desktop on WinRT is specifically a special exceptions mode and most people are wondering why it exists at all. I believe it's perfectly fine for Mozilla to make a Metro browser and their whole rant about Metro being prohibitive is bullshit because IE10 Metro is the same as IE10 desktop minus plugins (which is a design decision not a technical one).

[quaere]

People are really missing this part. Nothing but Office and IE run in classic mode on WinRT and this was always the case. Classic desktop on WinRT is specifically a special exceptions mode and most people are wondering why it exists at all. I believe it's perfectly fine for Mozilla to make a Metro browser and their whole rant about Metro being prohibitive is bullshit because IE10 Metro is the same as IE10 desktop minus plugins (which is a design decision not a technical one).

But obviously Microsoft is going to have special privileges for its applications. Just like Apple could make Safari for iOS but even though other browsers are "allowed" it is impossible for them to truly differentiate because it is impossible for them to bring over their browser engines within Apple's technical guidelines for the app store.

Mozilla needs to be clear whether or not this is the case for Windows RT.

[saunderez]

People are really missing this part. Nothing but Office and IE run in classic mode on WinRT and this was always the case. Classic desktop on WinRT is specifically a special exceptions mode and most people are wondering why it exists at all. I believe it's perfectly fine for Mozilla to make a Metro browser and their whole rant about Metro being prohibitive is bullshit because IE10 Metro is the same as IE10 desktop minus plugins (which is a design decision not a technical one).

That's not what the article says though. It sounds like if Mozilla want to make a Metro browser they have to use the IE engine. And if they do that then all they've made is a skin for IE. If they can't use Gecko then it's not Mozilla at all.

[eastmen]

At this point no I don't think they can match ARM CPUs for battery life. I'm happy to be proven wrong but the devices I've used to date don't come close.

you do know that its not allways the hardwares fault , some of the blame lies at the foot of how windows works . Windows 8 has cut back on the processes and ram usage compared to windows 7 and its much better at downlocking cpus and turning off cores.


I don't doubt that an arm cpu will get better battery life but does it really matter when the x86 chips are staring down the 10 hour mark .

[jagowar]

That's not what the article says though. It sounds like if Mozilla want to make a Metro browser they have to use the IE engine. And if they do that then all they've made is a skin for IE. If they can't use Gecko then it's not Mozilla at all.

This is something Mozilla needs to address but winRT is a pretty expansive language in terms of the languages it supports so I would think the gecko engine could run on it but it might need a lot of rework. Or ms might be straight not letting other browser engines run through winRT. The one thing that hasn't changed (which is why this really isn't news) is the classic mode in winRT. Ever since they clarified what winRT was going to do the classic mode was always gimped. Mozilla is just now discovering that I guess.

The buzz around winRT was already fading because of the limitations.... if the x86 stuff is up to snuff I don't see anybody opting for the winRT version unless the price difference is massive or winRT has far better battery life. No reason to limit yourself when the x86 stuff is getting as good as it has recently.

Someone jog my memory-what are the key features that windows brings to the table with their arm tablets that android and iphone don't, aside from the metro interface?

snap multitasking, app contracts, true universal search (even in apps), real office, xbox live, etc. There is a ton winRT will be able to do that is not possible currently on the other mobile platforms.

[saunderez]

you do know that its not allways the hardwares fault , some of the blame lies at the foot of how windows works .

I'm aware of that, but to pull it off requires both Microsoft and Intel to make huge strides in power efficiency at the same time and I just can't see it happening. As I said I'm happy to be proven wrong, I'd love a new netbook with an extremely power efficient CPU and operating system.

[JonnyBrad]

Good lord a whole ecosystem with browsers made with IE's rendering engine. Web developers around the world am cry.

[Marty Chinn]

I'm aware of that, but to pull it off requires both Microsoft and Intel to make huge strides in power efficiency at the same time and I just can't see it happening. As I said I'm happy to be proven wrong, I'd love a new netbook with an extremely power efficient CPU and operating system.

Microsoft has. It's really all up on Intel to see if they're going to meet the claims that they've already made specs for.

[saunderez]

Microsoft has. It's really all up on Intel to see if they're going to meet the claims that they've already made specs for.

Hence why I'm taking the "wait and see" approach. We've been lied to about power efficiency plenty of times in the past, I refuse to believe spec sheets now and will only accept real world performance as a benchmark.

[eastmen]

I'm aware of that, but to pull it off requires both Microsoft and Intel to make huge strides in power efficiency at the same time and I just can't see it happening. As I said I'm happy to be proven wrong, I'd love a new netbook with an extremely power efficient CPU and operating system.

have you missed the ultra books that intel and its partners have been putting out ? Have you missed the last 3 years of power reduction on its desktop cores ?

[Lumination]

So, Windows 8 gets worse than just having that ugly ass interface? 7 is all I'll ever need, I guess.

[Raistlin]

christ what a bs explanation. at least apple admits they just don't want 3rd party apps competing with their own so they can control the core user experience

Which really boils down to the same thing, MS just gave some (dumb) specifics.

Does that mean all software has to go through MS first?

For Win RT, yes. They have a dedicated marketplace.

They have a desktop interface and access to legacy adapted Office suite apps to.

Which I expect may eventually be gone if they can come up with a tenable metro office solution.

What an insane decision. I hope the public outcry forces their hands.

Is there one from Apple users?

Didn't the EU get really hard on Microsoft for bundling Windows and Internet Explorer together a while ago?

Yes, because they had an 'open' system that was a monopoly.

Well they should concentrate on the iOS version of Firefox. Whats up with that?

:p

Welp there goes my plan of going all windows in the next two years.... was gonna buy Windows tablet and phone.

Get a Win 8 tablet then.

You can buy a heavy power-guzzling and hot x86 tablet and have NO COMPROMISES.

How does a Mac Air function?

arent they basically opening themselves to legal issues with anti-competative behavior?

No

Apple has always used the we are the small guys dont hurt us behavior to avoid it. I suppose in the tablet market Microsoft might get to try that defense but I dont think Microsoft has the image to use it.

Image matters not

Apple allows 3rd party browsers, as long as they are based on the webkit engine. Is MS allowing 3rd party browsers based on IE's engine? Or no third party browsers at all?

Look to WP7 for that answer.

[Copernicus]

Welp, I'm not upgrading to w8.

Fuck off MS.

[AgentP]

Don't argue with eastman about anything MS, he gives Major Nelson a run for his money.

[Raistlin]

Welp, I'm not upgrading to w8. Fuck off MS.

This isn't Win 8, it's Win RT. If you're upgrading to Win 8, Firefox will be there. Even a metro rev if you want it.

Don't argue with eastman about anything MS, he gives Major Nelson a run for his money.

But he's right.

[Copernicus]

This isn't Win 8, it's Win RT. If you're upgrading to Win 8, Firefox will be there. Even a metro rev if you want it.

Principle of the matter, I don't even use Firefox, but I stop throwing money at companies pulling things like these.

[Marty Chinn]

This isn't Win 8, it's Win RT. If you're upgrading to Win 8, Firefox will be there. Even a metro rev if you want it.

Metro skin though, not a native app right?

[Raistlin]

Principle of the matter, I don't even use Firefox, but I stop throwing money at companies pulling things like these.

Principal of what matter? Windows 8 does have Firefox.

[Copernicus]

Principal of what matter? Windows 8 does have Firefox.

The shift to appliances that MS is doing with Win8 RT.

This isn't about firefox, it's about blocking access under the guise of security.