[Nerfgun]

iPad's visual elements are large enough that dropping a few inches isn't going to matter for most people.

you'd be really surprised. fingers don't scale. the gap between 3.5" and 9" is a big change for the size of hit targets. an in-between rez would give devs (like me) conniptions over yet another size/aspect target.

I disagree on a few counts. First off there is enough of a size difference that the use-case actually does end up different in real-world usage. I've seen people carry Kind Fires and the like in jacket pockets, purses, etc. Similarly, people are more apt to one-hand it. While obviously there's tons of overlap, it does serve some different usage patterns. Second, MacOS and iOS's revenue streams are weighted differently. MacOS products have a higher per-unit margin. In the case of iOS, a larger relative chunk of revenue comes from software and services. With that in mind, marketshare is much more important to them.

I agree on the usage patterns, but disagree on your conclusion, in that I feel that people are by and large happy to default down to phone size in many of these instances. Apple has a giant chunk of the tabket market share already, and the mindshare as well. eReaders seem to be the exception (paperback size, less "precious", lighter).

[Raistlin]

you'd be really surprised. fingers don't scale. the gap between 3.5" and 9" is a big change for the size of hit targets. an in-between rez would give devs (like me) conniptions over yet another size/aspect target.

Obviously I haven't used every piece of software out there so I'll certainly concede I'm no authority. In my own anecdotal usage though, I haven't run into any serious issues. I have a Nook and threw Android on it. Haven't really had problems with hit targets in the majority of situations versus my Transformer, etc.

I agree on the usage patterns, but disagree on your conclusion, in that I feel that people are by and large happy to default down to phone size in many of these instances. Apple has a giant chunk of the tabket market share already, and the mindshare as well. eReaders seem to be the exception (paperback size, less "precious", lighter).

In the quotes post, I wasn't arguing whether there was a huge market or not for this product based on size. I was arguing about usage patterns for people that already do own a smaller tablet since he was arguing the size difference changes little in terms of form-factor.


If you check out my posts throughout this thread, it shows my main argument for sales potential being mostly about price - not size. If anything, I've argued that size likely isn't the long pole. It's more about people wanting a (cheaper) iPad regardless of size.

Or am I misunderstanding what you're getting at?

[Nerfgun]

Obviously I haven't used every piece of software out there so I'll certainly concede I'm no authority. In my own anecdotal usage though, I haven't run into any serious issues. I have a Nook and threw Android on it. Haven't really had problems with hit targets in the majority of situations versus my Transformer, etc.

Of course. Those tablets have UIs designed for their size.

I was speaking more of the actual necessity to accomodate yet another iOS screen target.

The jump between the 3:2 aspect phone at 3.5" and the 4:3 aspect tablet at 9" is basically the difference between a totally-mobile screen and a pseudo-laptop screen. When I'm doing responsive site designs I often can leave the iPad as-is since it has such a high rez, and I can expect users to be able to hit most links with their fingers. 7" becomes this odd no-man's-land where you can fit a [i]few] more buttons, but can't see a whole lot more. It's the opposite of the "goldilocks zone", IMO.

In the quotes post, I wasn't arguing where there was a huge market or not for this product based on size. I was arguing about usage patterns for people that already do own a smaller tablet (and later revenue streams, but that's immaterial to this). If you check out my posts throughout this thread, it shows my main argument for sales potential being mostly about price - not size. If anything, I've argued that size likely isn't the long pole. It's more about people wanting a (cheaper) iPad regardless of size. Or am I misunderstanding what you're getting at?

Ah, I think the misunderstanding is mine. I am arguing chiefly from the size aspect.

When the iPad first appeared, people expected it to be $800-$1k. You'll recall the surprise at the actual price.

The fact that they still sell discounted iPad 2s is, I think, the answer. Apple will leave the last model in play and that is as low as they are willing to go (or compete in). I really do think it is as simple as that. iPod Touch, $200. Used iPad, $300ish. Old model new iPad, $400. And so on. They don't care about that little $300 gap. In fact I think they are happy to let Asus and the others take that space. Makes them look more "premium".

I see what you are getting at, but I just don't think they care enough to confuse the market and the dev situation with yet another model, for the sake of that small gap.

[LCfiner]

Guys, 10” tablets are just as easily pocketable as 7” tablets. don’t believe the haters.

see? totally comfortable and not at all awkward and forced.

[polyh3dron]

No way, if it was the same res at that size, battery life would be absolute shit.

[Greyface]

Guys, 10” tablets are just as easily pocketable as 7” tablets. don’t believe the haters. see? totally comfortable and not at all awkward and forced.

pfft. just get a big ass pocket

[Raistlin]

Of course. Those tablets have UIs designed for their size.

What are you talking about? The UI is the same whether on the Nook or the Transformer. It's simply smaller on the former.

http://www.the-ebook-reader.com/nook...honeycomb.html

[Nerfgun]

What are you talking about? The UI is the same whether on the Nook or the Transformer. It's simply smaller on the former. http://www.the-ebook-reader.com/nook...honeycomb.html

Sure, but Google knows that 7" tablets exist. Ergo, they test for that.

[Stinkles]

Bye Kindle.

.

[Raistlin]

Sure, but Google knows that 7" tablets exist. Ergo, they test for that.

Are you arguing the layout and hit target sizes in iPad are fundamentally different?

While I don't own an iPad, I've used them on a few occasions and never noticed an obvious disparity. It haven't seen tons of apps where content is crammed together any more than on Android. There doesn't seem to be a notable data (and therefore hit target) density delta.

Dropping a few inches doesn't suddenly turn iOS into Win XP/7 tablet edition or something.

[LCfiner]

pfft. just get a big ass pocket

nice.

but those shorts already have bigass pockets. biggest pockets I’ve ever seen outside of cargo shorts - at least twice as big as all my jean pockets

[Copernicus]

Are you arguing the layout and hit target sizes in iPad are fundamentally different? While I don't own an iPad, I've used them on a few occasions and never noticed an obvious disparity.

I think he's just saying that only having to deal with 2 targets is easier than dealing with 3.

or something

[Tobor]

I think Tobor was talking about the ipods being mislabeled as computers. I'll call the ipods computers when they gain meaninful computer functionality like the ability to upload data from the browser without having to dance around the silos.

Your definition of "computer" is as flawed as ever.

[Nerfgun]

Are you arguing the layout and hit target sizes in iPad are fundamentally different? While I don't own an iPad, I've used them on a few occasions and never noticed an obvious disparity.

No no. They're not fundamentally different. But it is different. Something that must be accounted for.

So I would assume -which is perhaps a mistake - that Google's designers do tablet UI design to hit a 7" target. And scale up from there. it's what I would do, take the "worst case" scenario. I confess ignorance on Android UI scaling however, maybe they are doing something clever with vectors.

[Raistlin]

I think he's just saying that only having to deal with 2 targets is easier than dealing with 3. or something

I'm saying I haven't seen an obvious reason why they'd have to deal with an extra target at all.

[Copernicus]

I'm saying I haven't seen an obvious reason why they'd have to deal with an extra target at all.

Oh, I think you're talking about touch targets, and he's talking about layout targets.

Your definition of "computer" is as flawed as ever.

How so?

[Nerfgun]

Oh, I think you're talking about touch targets, and he's talking about layout targets.

both actually but yes. sorry for the confusion, I'm not being as clear as I could.

also, I know SJ isn't around anymore, but there is this as well (from 2 years ago):

Oh, and 7-inch tablets? You're in for a bag of hurt. Steve pretty much outright killed any potential for 7-inch iPad rumors, saying that the software just isn't right for that size ("This size is useless unless you include sandpaper so users can sand their fingers down to a quarter of their size."), and that users have no need for a pocket sized tablet when they already have a smartphone.

source

[Raistlin]

Oh, I think you're talking about touch targets, and he's talking about layout targets.

Even then I don't see the necessity.


Honeycomb/ICS Tablet's main UI is actually more dense than iPad's. There are more, smaller items, and they are packed tighter. Yet I have no problem using it on a 7" tablet. And as for apps, in general the data density is pretty similar between both OS's.


Hell ... one of the most common layout criticisms I've heard for iPad is how much space is being wasted on the home screen. People would like to fit more per screen. So again I ask, why would a different target be needed?

[Copernicus]

Even then I don't see the necessity. Honeycomb/ICS Tablet's main UI is actually more dense than iPad's. There are more, smaller items, and they are packed tighter. Yet I have no problem using it on a 7" tablet. And as for apps, in general the data density is pretty similar between both OS's. Hell ... one of the most common layout criticisms I've heard for iPad is how much space is being wasted on the home screen. People would like to fit more per screen. So again I ask, why would a different target be needed?

The overall sizing of objects is the same, since the OS takes care of sizing things, but the layout targets are different, Large (5-7") and X Large (7-10").

Some developers piggyback the two layouts together though and don't do separate layouts, instead just space things out.

both actually but yes. sorry for the confusion, I'm not being as clear as I could. also, I know SJ isn't around anymore, but there is this as well (from 2 years ago): source

Good old Jobs, that's because iOS isn't flexible to accommodate relative layouts. They did a marvelous job of sizing the ipad/iphone to thwart the need for thinking too much.

[Nerfgun]

Can you post a screenshot Raistlin? or link one? want to see what we're comparing.

not the home screen but what you would consider a "tight but workable" UI @7"?

[Raistlin]

Can you post a screenshot Raistlin? or link one? want to see what we're comparing. not the home screen but what you would consider a "tight but workable" UI @7"?

There's pics and a video at the link I provided.

[Nerfgun]

Ah ok.

So. The first thing we need to note is that there will be 2 standards in play here. There will be your standards, for how difficult or easy a given UI is to use, and there will be Apple's. I suspect your standards are not Apple's. You're probably more comfortable with a higher level of sophistication. Apple sells iPads to grandparents, so they can FaceTime with their children. Amongst many others. So in terms of readability and hit targets, and expectations, we should note this.

So looking at your link - and it's a tough comparison, since nothing there is at native rez or display PPI of course – something like this:



Does not strike me as parrticularly cluttered, pretty good, although the choice of what looks like a Serif font on the icons is not good, and the type itself is too small. IMO. The layout is quite floaty, I'm not sure of the relationship between these groups of objects, but sans more context I'll just leave that alone.

Something like this:



... does absolutely strike me as too cluttered, and visually incoherent. It's not about how many icons you can cram into the canvas, you also have to consider how many things or concepts people can mentally juggle at once, and a host of other things.

There are 24 icons on that screen. The rest taken up by that odd strip of - what, extra-wide desktop? Some sort of virtual space manager? Whereas an iPad home screen will hold – guess. 20 icons, in the primary area, and another 6 in the Dock, making 26. So they didn't even really gain anything in that dept. Plus, totally illegible icons in the lower left (what are those?), and the status icons in the lower right are occupying a silly place, just to be different. Lower right is a very powerful corner, you don't waste that with status icons, but is more appropriate for active controls or Next buttons or what-have-you.

That's a bit of a mini-rant on that but this is what I'd say if one of my people handed me that. (Please don't read that as an argument from authority, just context).

So in the end I suspect that this discussion basically breaks down to that distinction between your own targets and a wider mass-audience target, which is of course totally fine, but one should note the difference. At 7" that one above does strike me as problematic.

[Raistlin]

Sorry, I didn't meant to imply it's a good UI. I provided that link originally to show that it's the same UI as the 10" one.

I'd have to charge up my Nook and find the SD card with Honeycomb (I don't really use it anymore), but from what I recall the layout doesn't change. The spacing, etc is the same. Unless I'm mistaken it's the same as the 10" only smaller. And it works fine.



While yes, I agree mine (and Google's) view of what's okay on a tablet may differ from Apple ... the point is iPad's UI is already less dense. So shrinking it shouldn't be problematic even with a stricter view of what's okay.

[Copernicus]

Yea, that HC layout is atrocious, glad Matias cleaned it up.

Raistlin: The 7" homescreen has the same size objects, but shows less objects than a 10" homescreen. So it's not really scaled down/up. The space in between is just removed, which I think is what you're getting at though.

[Marco1]

I really hope this is coming as my son will love it for Christmas. The touch is to small for his needs and there is no way I'm leaving him with an ipad considering the price of it.