[Deified Data]

So GAF, I work in a public library with a staff that's about 90% female. All my superiors are women, my director is a woman, you get the idea. I'm one of two males employed there, and I sometimes get the impression that my gender is keeping me from advancing further in my position than I'd like.

Okay, so bear with me. If there is gender discrimination at work here, it's very moderate and probably not even intentional. No one's slapping my ass or propositioning me, which is nice. Here are some examples:

(A) The library has a special "Manga Club" for kids interested in that sort of thing, basically a reader circle but for manga. The staff member charged with overseeing that program quit, so I volunteered (being a fan of manga, I thought it was a natural fit). When I asked the director about it, she responded that "In the interest of protecting the kids and protecting you, I think we'll have someone else cover it". I asked her what she meant by that, and she told me that "It's not the best idea for a man to oversee a group of children alone - people could get the wrong idea". I was a little concerned by this but never aired my frustrations to anyone. Essentially, she's either operating under the assumptian that I'll do something awful to these kids, or that people will naturally assume I will and act on that. In the library, the best way to earn more money is to have more responsibilities. This is one responsibility I was prevented from having due to my gender, presumably.

(B) So I spend a lot of my shifts in the children's department (thankfully there are other staff members present so I don't up and kidnap one of them on a whim, I guess), where I'm responsible for manning the circulation desk and seeing that the kids behave - this occasionally extends to disciplining kids who don't follow the rules. In one such instance, this kid basically comes in every day only to get kicked out again. It becomes such a nuisance that the director and I have a meeting about it to discuss what's to be done. Before we get down to business, however, she has a very serious question for me, and I'll never forget it: "So are you sure this isn't some sort of alpha-male thing? That he threatens you so you have to remove him?" I was aghast. What I replied was "No", but what I thought in my head was "If you're asking if my being a man is preventing me from doing my job correctly, the answer is no". She then goes on to say that perhaps the kid is acting out so much because he wants my attention as some sort of male role-model. I can assure you this isn't the case, but again she attempts to chalk the problem up to me being a guy.

(C) It's the little things, really. Me and the other guy I work with are collectively known as "the boys" at work. When office functions come around and everyone is tasked with bringing in something to eat, he and I are always handwaved. "I know you guys don't cook, so feel free to bring some chips." She has no idea whether I can cook or not, and I've never told her otherwise. If a public toilet needs plunged, call in one of "the boys" to plunge it even though there are 4 other women with nothing to do but watch.

So yeah, I know it's not the end of the world. I realize I may come off as a whiny asshole but people in threads like these often do. I'll attempt to diffuse the first few posts that'll be made to this thread so we can move on after that:

• Yes, I know I'm lucky to have a job at all in this economy. I don't take it for granted.
• Yes, I know women tend to have it much worse off. This isn't about comparing scenarios - these are just my personal experiences.
• No, my boss's discriminatory attitude isn't the only thing standing between me and a better salary. But it certainly isn't helping.
• This isn't a "woe is me/first world problems" thread - I have an excellent job, faults and all.
• I'm not a Reddit-style "Men's Rights" nut. In general I think men have all of society's benefits available to them. I just believe working in a public library, like working in a daycare or elementary school, is one of those jobs where being a man can only count against you.

tl;dr My boss can be a bit sexist sometimes and it's sort of obnoxious. Share your stories, if you have them.

[Korey]

This seems like discrimination to me. Tell your boss stuff like this bothers you.

[Deified Data]

This seems like discrimination to me. Tell your boss stuff like this bothers you.

I think bringing it up to her would be a quick way to get patronized and dismissed.

[kirblar]

One of the most fascinating phenomena driving gender changes in the workforce, Munday says, is that of male flight, the tendency that men have to lose interest in or abandon a profession as more women enter it. Researchers have said that men show an aversion to what’s been termed gender “pollution.” As women begin entering a field, the most cited example being veterinary medicine, younger men begin to show less interest in that area of expertise. Older, established male veterinarians don’t leave the field, it’s just that the rising classes of veterinarians turn overwhelmingly female. Some researchers have predicted that this example can be used to predict what we’ll see even in traditionally male professions like law. “The women pour in,” Mundy observes, “and the men drain out.”

http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...adwinners.html

This immediately came to mind when you posted your anecdote. Social dynamics change massively when the gender imbalance is pretty far out of whack.

[Barrage]

Bringing it up would be a terrible idea, and would most likely end in a hostile work environment because of your changed perception as a "baby", or some other nonsense. The "Alpha Male" thing with the kid, in particular, shows me this supervisor is kind of a lunatic.

It seems like you know these problems, while shitty, aren't enough to quit this job over. So if what's irritating you are a series of little things, work on them with little solutions.

1)Prove you can cook by bringing in a dish next time.

2)Is there anyway to have 2 people do the "Manga Club" thing, or is it always done by an individual?

The plunger thing is something guys will have to do at pretty much every female-oriented workplace (i've done it at fast food, retail, and even at a radio station). Gender norm or not, I don't think it's worth it to you to complain about it.

[Korey]

I think bringing it up to her would be a quick way to get patronized and dismissed.

don't retaliation laws cover this? In that situation you may have legal options

[bengraven]

A and B basically confirm she's discriminating. I didn't need to keep reading after "alpha male".

2)Is there anyway to have 2 people do the "Manga Club" thing, or is it always done by an individual?

This is a good idea, though I fear:

1) they'll not be able to afford that many staff in one place at once. I know libraries are getting budget cuts around the country.

2) if the female is gone, then suddenly they might "cancel" manga night and that will make you feel even more like you're being typecast.

[Deified Data]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...adwinners.html This immediately came to mind when you posted your anecdote. Social dynamics change massively when the gender imbalance is pretty far out of whack.

I understand the concept, but the difference is I entered into the field knowing full well that the gender bias scewed massively female. It wouldn't bother me at all if my director didn't make an issue of it. Or do you mean she might view me as some sort of gender pollution?

[Dahellisdat]

If a public toilet needs plunged, call in one of "the boys" to plunge it even though there are 4 other women with nothing to do but watch.

What percentage of the toilets you're unclogging are in the women's restroom?

[bengraven]

I do have to ask, but please don't think less of me for this.

Do you act or dress in any way less professional that she would have cause to be unsure about you?

This isn't in any way, shape, or form condoning her bias towards you - if anything, if she thinks you're "weird" or a "nerd" it's still discrimination and in fact, almost worse than sexual bias.

[Omegasquash]

From story number 2, it sounds to me like she has beef. "Alpha male thing" screams that she has a problem with you being a dude. Anyone that said that should be told flat out that it's inappropriate.

Edit: My story - Yes, I've worked for bad bosses of both genders, never to the degree that gender was brought up as an issue though. Almost got fired the day after I proposed to my wife and two minutes after my boss asked how it went, which was AWKWARD. Good thing the douche didn't have grounds...only asked me if I thought this place was "right for me."

[Deified Data]

What percentage of the toilets you're unclogging are in the women's restroom?

Haha, most of the time, actually. The men's room has one stall while the women's has two, so that's how it naturally occurs. And it's not as though I'm just standing around, waiting for something to do. They'll call me from an entirely different department just to plunge a toilet. It gets sort of old.

I do have to ask, but please don't think less of me for this. Do you act or dress in any way less professional that she would have cause to be unsure about you? This isn't in any way, shape, or form condoning her bias towards you - if anything, if she thinks you're "weird" or a "nerd" it's still discrimination and in fact, almost worse than sexual bias.

No offense taken. I fancy myself as the most professionally-dressed person on-staff.

Yeah, I'm a bit weird and nerdy. Not bad weird. I think?

[DanteFox]

Real talk dude. You do kind of have a pedo-stache.

jk of course. But yeah just complain to your superiors.

[Zoe]

What percentage of the toilets you're unclogging are in the women's restroom?

You know nothing about women, do you.

[cutmeamango]

How old is your boss, and is she married, and does she have kids?

[Deified Data]

How old is your boss, and is she married, and does she have kids?

She's in her 60's and is a divorcee. No kids.

There's all sorts of awful stereotypes I could derive from that to explain her behavior, but I'm trying to be the better person between us.

Real talk dude. You do kind of have a pedo-stache. jk of course. But yeah just complain to your superiors.

I'm currently rocking a handlebar, which is glorious.

[andycapps]

Pretty fair case for discrimination. Unfortunately, it's kind of an accepted thing for people to look at a man weird if they're with a kid. I've gotten looks from people before if I take my 6 year old daughter out to a store and my wife isn't there.

[Dahellisdat]

You know nothing about women, do you.

The fuck are you talking about??? I don't understand why they wouldn't separate bathroom duties by making him take care of mens room issues while females handle womens room issues. What exactly did you infer from what I said?

[J-Rod]

Anyone above her that you could talk to?

[Typographenia]

Point B... What the heck? Where did she pull the alpha male thing from? Are you positive there have never been any incidents in the past with your or your other fellow male employee that would have made her bring this up? Is it possible this was an issue with a past employee? Just seems like one weird thing to ask when that doesn't even seem like something that should have ever come up.

[Zoe]

The fuck are you talking about??? I don't understand why they wouldn't separate bathroom duties by making him take care of mens room issues while females handle womens room issues. What exactly did you infer from what I said?

Sorry, I thought you were implying that the men's room would get more clogs than the women's room.

[Cat Party]

Calling the stuff in the OP "discrimination" is pretty absurd. It does sound like your boss is out of touch and has some prejudices, but your plight seems fairly insignificant.

[kirblar]

I understand the concept, but the difference is I entered into the field knowing full well that the gender bias scewed massively female. It wouldn't bother me at all if my director didn't make an issue of it. Or do you mean she might view me as some sort of gender pollution?

Just meant that it came to mind as a real-world anecdote of why this phenomenon occurs. You're kinda screwed in a lot of ways here as the transaction costs of taking action likely outweigh any potential benefit.

[Dahellisdat]

Sorry, I thought you were implying that the men's room would get more clogs than the women's room.

Ahh....no I've actually experienced the opposite from when I had to do bathroom maintenance at my 1st job at OfficeMax. I think the women's restrooms got far more used than the mens rooms did there though.

[bengraven]

No offense taken. I fancy myself as the most professionally-dressed person on-staff. Yeah, I'm a bit weird and nerdy. Not bad weird. I think?

I'm currently rocking a handlebar, which is glorious.

Yeah, it's definitely gender discrimination and probably personal as well. If she's 60 I somehow think she probably doesn't find your handlebar very comforting. If you were on the street and she didn't know you she'd likely clutch her purse and cross the road. ;)

You know nothing about women, do you.

No shit. I've had the horrible bathroom cleanup duties in many many shit (literally) jobs and I can say that women's bathrooms are occasionally and frequently worse smelling than mens.

[GungHo]

The alpha male story is probably the most bothersome. If it was a matter of "is he causing problems in order to start a confrontation with an older male", it might make more sense, but the "That he threatens you so you have to remove him?" part is shitty. It could be that she just wants to understand what's lead to the problems, but she's kind of picking an assinine approach. The other two stories are a little more understandable... and while, yes, you're being treated differently, it's not out of line.

Unfortunately, a library is like a small business. If the boss is mistreating you, and it's really bothering you, probably the easiest solution is to find another job. It doesn't sound like the most "equitable" solution, but you don't have an HR department to lean on and while you could take it to city management, I can promise you that they're going to tell you that you're over-reacting. You're just not going to have a leg to stand on. Gender discrimination against males just doesn't have the same appearance of impropriety to many folks, and while it sucks, there's nothing you're going to be able to do to change it.

Personally, I've worked with and around a lot of women in career and I've probably preferred to work for women... but it's been mostly positive experiences for me. I've had encounters with a few females that were very aggressive and it seemed like maybe they were "playing it up to get ahead in the man's world", and while that may or may not be true, I've found verbal jujutsu to work a little better than trying to meet that aggression head on.

[Deified Data]

Point B... What the heck? Where did she pull the alpha male thing from? Are you positive there have never been any incidents in the past with your or your other fellow male employee that would have made her bring this up? Is it possible this was an issue with a past employee? Just seems like one weird thing to ask when that doesn't even seem like something that should have ever come up.

You'd think so, but no, it really was as random and unwarranted as it sounds. I'm good friends with my fellow male employee and I think alpha-male posturing is dumb.

Ahh....no I've actually experienced the opposite from when I had to do bathroom maintenance at my 1st job at OfficeMax. I think the women's restrooms got far more used than the mens rooms did there though.

I don't even mind doing the lady's room. It's the fact that they call me away from responsibilities elsewhere, from an entirely different department, to get me to plunge a toilet. Shows real appreciation for my contributions. If I'm working downstairs (where our bathrooms are) I have no issue whatsoever dealing with the toilets.

Anyone above her that you could talk to?

Nope, she's the director of the library and the highest rung on the latter.

[bengraven]

The alpha male story is probably the most bothersome. If it was a matter of "is he causing problems in order to start a confrontation with an older male", it might make more sense, but the "That he threatens you so you have to remove him?" part is shitty. It could be that she just wants to understand what's lead to the problems, but she's kind of picking an assinine approach. The other two stories are a little more understandable... and while, yes, you're being treated differently, it's not out of line. Unfortunately, a library is like a small business. If the boss is mistreating you, and it's really bothering you, probably the easiest solution is to find another job. It doesn't sound like the most "equitable" solution, but you don't have an HR department to lean on and while you could take it to city management, I can promise you that they're going to tell you that you're over-reacting. You're just not going to have a leg to stand on. Gender discrimination against males just doesn't have the same appearance of impropriety to many folks, and while it sucks, there's nothing you're going to be able to do to change it. Personally, I've worked with and around a lot of women in career and I've probably preferred to work for women... but it's been mostly positive experiences for me. I've had encounters with a few females that were very aggressive and it seemed like maybe they were "playing it up to get ahead in the man's world", and while that may or may not be true, I've found verbal jujutsu to work a little better than trying to meet that aggression head on.

Well said all around. And I've had the same experiences as you working with women. You would occasionally find women who were hostile towards men, but for reasons I was never privy to and likely was in their past, but for the most part I always worked better with women. A professional woman, in my experience, comes off as more real than a professional man. Again, in my experience. Professional men always came off as trying to do an impression of their fathers.

Middle aged or elderly women were the best, because, being a chubby boyish guy with a cocky grin, they either had crushes on me or treated me like their own son. lol Just kidding around, mostly.

[Dahellisdat]

I don't even mind doing the lady's room. It's the fact that they call me away from responsibilities elsewhere, from an entirely different department, to get me to plunge a toilet. Shows real appreciation for my contributions. If I'm working downstairs (where our bathrooms are) I have no issue whatsoever dealing with the toilets.

That's bullshit though....everyone should know how to unclog a toilet regardless of gender. It can be a rather important skill. I just don't see why if they're working down there already that they couldn't take care of it themselves. Can you ask them this?

[cutmeamango]

She's in her 60's and is a divorcee. No kids. There's all sorts of awful stereotypes I could derive from that to explain her behavior, but I'm trying to be the better person between us.

Not really to stereotype, but knowing her can help you understand why she is 'demanding' of guys. By those three exemples, it doesn't sound like she is consciously and purposefully being prejudicial to you and your collegues.
Overall, how would you rate her interactions with the staff as a whole?

[Ivan A Nguyen]

My wife worked in a day care when she was in college. There is a massive gender inequality there. This gave me a lot of insight when I was looking to put my son in day care. She wanted to avoid any that employed guys because it was always trouble. As if to drive the point home, she got a call a few weeks later from a former co-worker from her old day care and it was about how the only guy there is now up on legal charges for messing with kids.

So when it comes to the manga club, I can understand the hesitation.

[Loofy]

(A) The library has a special "Manga Club" for kids interested in that sort of thing, basically a reader circle but for manga. The staff member charged with overseeing that program quit, so I volunteered (being a fan of manga, I thought it was a natural fit). When I asked the director about it, she responded that "In the interest of protecting the kids and protecting you, I think we'll have someone else cover it". I asked her what she meant by that, and she told me that "It's not the best idea for a man to oversee a group of children alone - people could get the wrong idea". I was a little concerned by this but never aired my frustrations to anyone. Essentially, she's either operating under the assumptian that I'll do something awful to these kids, or that people will naturally assume I will and act on that. In the library, the best way to earn more money is to have more responsibilities. This is one responsibility I was prevented from having due to my gender, presumably.

Well theres that whole thing with statutory rape at anime conventions...

[t26]

Can sort of relate, since I am also in a field that is 90% women

[SMT]

It seems like your boss is hurt, and bitter from all her years as a divorcee.

When I usually work in a place dominated by traditional women, there's some expectations, but the most important is:

• They expect you to compliment them, if you don't, they'll question your manhood or think you hate them.

Being a man, it is your gender role, and sadly you have to play along until you find someone who looks for equity among the ranks. She doesn't seem to understand that notion, which is why you need to act more down to earth and flirt a little. Make them feel good about themselves, in turn, you'll feel like a better person and may even get a raise.

You job could be at stake here, I would socialize more with your female co-workers, the way you phrased it, it sounds like it was you and your male colleague against the world.

[Bomber Bob]

"In the interest of protecting the kids and protecting you, I think we'll have someone else cover it".

Prolly parents dont want adult male being near children.

[Deified Data]

Not really to stereotype, but knowing her can help you understand why she is 'demanding' of guys. By those three exemples, it doesn't sound like she is consciously and purposefully being prejudicial to you and your collegues. Overall, how would you rate her interactions with the staff as a whole?

She has a history of grating on certain employees 'til the point of them leaving.

That said, I don't believe she's doing that to me. I think she's patronizing me more than anything else. Trust me whe I say that being a young, attractive female in this evironment would lead to a lot more barbs being thrown at you than being a guy. It's a double-edged sword - on one hand, I'm patronized. On the other, no one views me as a threat so there's not much petty shit. Honestly I'm not sure which one I'd prefer - to be take seriously or or treated with kindness. Both would be awesome.

[parrotbeak]

I'm one of the only males around my workplace. Manager is female and the women regularly exclaim loudly how stupid men are. Conversations regularly center on how their lives suck because of men (husbands, their bosses, random male colleagues). I ignore it because of the things in the OP's bullet list. I still find it offensive and I ignore their conversations.

I also can cook and people I'm friends with outside of work know it. I never bring anything to the office though because "men can't cook."

And to reiterate the OP, I know women have it worse and a lot of this is a result of feeling like they aren't taken seriously because they are women. I have seen female colleagues not get the respect they deserved, and lazy male colleagues get preferential treatment just because a female boss liked them.

Ironically I don't think female bosses treat women better. In fact sometimes I feel like older women don't expect much from me because I'm a guy and are surprised when I'm not a lazy douche. I think a lot of it is also a generational thing.

[jimi_dini]

Prolly parents dont want adult male being near children.

this

your boss may even have no problem about it personally. But your boss would get problems from all sorts of parents in the world.

Try to get a job at a kindergarden. Oh you are male? No job for you sir. Think of the children. Oh wait, you are male. Don't think of the children, sir.

[teruterubozu]

Every library I've been in, the male employees look emasculated. There's definitely something to this.

[Deified Data]

Calling the stuff in the OP "discrimination" is pretty absurd. It does sound like your boss is out of touch and has some prejudices, but your plight seems fairly insignificant.

I thought I was self-deprecating enough in the OP, but I guess the insignificance of my situation remained understated. For bringing that to light, I thank you.

Yes, being prevented from overseeing a program due to my gender is discrimination, whether it's understandable or not.

[Neuromancer]

Dude that would piss me off. I would think seriously about filing an official complaint. If it's a public library there will be a way to do that somehow either through the library or the county system I imagine.

The thing about a male adult around children is ridiculous, what about elementary school teachers? Coaches? Etc.

[bengraven]

The worst part of this thread is that just today I had decided that I wanted to become a librarian. That, I decided, was what I was meant to do while trying to get my first book sold.

[Zoe]

The thing about a male adult around children is ridiculous, what about elementary school teachers? Coaches? Etc.

The exact same thing happens to them.

[ultron87]

It is sad that we can't have suspicion of pedophilia equality.

[frequency]

It's unfortunate but the majority almost always will discriminate the minority in any setting.

I wish I had some advice to give but... it just sucks.

[teruterubozu]

Dude that would piss me off. I would think seriously about filing an official complaint. If it's a public library there will be a way to do that somehow either through the library or the county system I imagine.

If it's the public library she is probably known as the sweet old lady that everyone in the neighborhood knows. Painting her as a sexually discriminating dominatrix probably won't gain any traction.

[Trojita]

You should have pissed on her to assert your dominance.

[RawPower]

I think bringing it up to her would be a quick way to get patronized and dismissed.

It depends on what you value more; your dignity, or your job? Personally, I would never put up with any of that crap you are allegedly dealing with. I would have simply raised a finger salute and walked out.

[Deified Data]

The worst part of this thread is that just today I had decided that I wanted to become a librarian. That, I decided, was what I was meant to do while trying to get my first book sold.

You and I are in near-identical scenarios, Bengraven. Libraries are where aspiring authors go to work while they wait to be published, apparently.

[Seguin]

The worst part of this thread is that just today I had decided that I wanted to become a librarian. That, I decided, was what I was meant to do while trying to get my first book sold.

My girlfriend was all set to go to school to get her masters in library sciences next year...until she realized there are very few jobs out there.