[scorpscarx]

...and yet they are not NEARLY as shady to me as big publishers.

[Alextended]

Yup Alextended, you have issues.

And you've clearly run out of ways to defend your poor arguments with so after sad attempts to circle jerk the same shit with random blanket statements that are far from the truth while skipping or outright distorting the points made by others, you resort to personal attacks. Thanks for making it obvious. I guess that's all that needs to be said, everything about KS is known and people are free to decide for themselves. The people are speaking and enough of them are using it for it to keep existing as it has been. Of course it hasn't been and won't be the second coming for those seeking funding, other options may still be more viable depending on their situation and project, but every high profile gig strengthens its viability. Claiming most backers don't comprehend basic risks and will suddenly agree with you the moment a project falls short isn't going to change any of these facts. Fin.

[DTKT]

Brb, time to shoot a hipstery video of myself talking about this awesome Xbox 360 adapter I'm building that lets you play PS3 games on it.

Bad projects don't raise money.

[outunderthestars]

One kickstarter that really interests me is the Pebble watch. I don't really doubt the guys will deliver with the device, but what if Apple decides, as some have theorized, to cut it off at its knees and greatly limit it? All the backers who bought it for their iPhone, and they're obviously the majority, will be so out of luck. The backlash would be insane.

To do so would also kill off well over 200 other devices that offer similar functionality. The backlash would extend well beyond the Pebble project backers.

[Famassu]

The industry is fine, as far as games being produced across a wide range of genres and wide range of budgets.

If the industry is fine, why can't Double Fine do what they do best? Sure, Costume Quest was fun (but small budget and thus a bit repetitive and very, very small scale) and so was Stacking (though, again, very much a one-trick pony), but if the industry was so fine for everyone, why can't Double Fine make another adventure game in the veins of Grim Fandango & Monkey Island?

People like to shit on how things are these days, but they have short memories.

Yeah, because there haven't been any great developers who've had to shut their doors even when they've been making fantastic games because publisher screw them over their money nor is any developer forced to make games they'd rather abandon for projects they'd love to work on. Oh, wait... Even Double Fine was in danger just a few months ago. The industry isn't all healthy in all fronts, Kickstarter CAN help in a part of that.

It's a fantastic time to be a gamer, and I stick by that.

I do agree that, ultimately, it IS a great time to be a gamer and I've got more games to play now than probably ever before. That, however, doesn't change the fact that there hasn't been a Tim Schafer adventure game in 14 years and Jane Jensen has done one original 3rd person adventure 13 years after Gabriel Knigt 3 (partly because they were treated like shit by the publishers). After more than a decade of bringing games like Wasteland & Fallout into the world, Brian Fargo made Gears of War Goes Medieval On Your Ass.

This all the while these people HAVE wanted to make all kinds of other projects but couldn't have since publishers don't want them to.

No decent adventure games out there? http://store.steampowered.com/sub/14622/ http://store.steampowered.com/app/207610/ http://store.steampowered.com/app/205840/ http://store.steampowered.com/app/80360/ http://store.steampowered.com/app/80310/ http://store.steampowered.com/app/204060/ No old-school RPGS? http://store.steampowered.com/app/206020/ http://store.steampowered.com/app/207170 http://store.steampowered.com/sub/14583/ http://store.steampowered.com/app/112100/ Yeah, not Double Fine, not Wasteland 2 or Shadowrun.. but games are there.

Yet, none of those ARE a new Tim Schafer adventure game (which I've been wanting ever since I finished Grim Fandango all those years ago) nor are the RPGs in any way comparable to the likes of Fallout, Baldur's Gate & Planescape Torment (+ sorry, but I've just never been the biggest fan of dungeon crawlers). Gemini Rue is great, I'll give you that. Haven't played Walking Dead (Telltale's games have never quite reached the highs of old Sierra or LucasArts, imho) or the others (Pendulo's games have been kinda meh-ish). The Blackwell games look interesting.

And as another person already pointed out, I WAS talking about specific games. There are a few adventure games around, but I still want a new one from Tim Schafer, Jane Jensen and whoever else decide to put up a Kickstarter in the future.



Also, I'll copy-paste my edit from my earlier post, since it seems you didn't notice it:

I said I don't really like the idea of Kickstarter for game development. I think paying up front in this industry is asking for trouble, and I don't want to see things move more in this direction. I don't want to see the time where indie or smaller devs are told just go Kickstart your game from publishers, and we could see things in a worse spot than we are now. Eventually there will be "real" KS backlash after projects don't go as planned, but we still are a ways from it.. there are other KS in the non-gaming front that have failed.

Just like unknown writers never ever get publishing deals or niche board game developers can never get their games manufactured by any other means now that Kickstarter is around? At this point this is a completely pointless worry. The big publishers want a piece of that digital download pie and they WILL NEVER let it all just go to Kickstarter originated projects where they'd get none of the profits (not to even mention you need to be backed/signed by a publisher if you want to get to many of the download services).

[Dacvak]

Bad projects don't raise money.

What kind of fantasy land do you live in? Are you telling me every Kickstarter project that gets funded is automatically good?

[jetjevons]

Time is gonna sort out the good from the bad. One of the things I'm excited about especially in regards to the development diaries and documentaries is the fans getting to know individuals. My hope is that the key backers will eventually realize where the real talent lies.

Think about it Deliver and your next Kickstarter can be more ambitious. Fail and everyone will know. In the past some shitty developers kept getting job after job no matter how poor the product they produced was simply because they were cheap or quick. That's not going to matter here.

Man, If I'd of helped Kickstart a Counter-Strike or Team Fortress and had some unique tag that identified me as being there from the start I'd feel pretty damn proud.

[cr_blah_blah]

What kind of fantasy land do you live in? Are you telling me every Kickstarter project that gets funded is automatically good?

You're not an idiot, why are you acting like one? You know exactly what he means. Don't be dense.

[hey_it's_that_dog]

What kind of fantasy land do you live in? Are you telling me every Kickstarter project that gets funded is automatically good?

Obviously it's not a sure thing, but the fact that enough people showed interest in a project and each made a decision that the project was worth the risk suggests that in some way the project was "good." The pitch was good, the idea was good. The outcome isn't guaranteed to be good. But what outcome is?

What is the definition of a "good" Kickstarter project besides "a project that gets funded because enough people think it's a good idea"? Does it have to be a project that will be widely appealing to an audience beyond the original backers? Not necessarily.

[NervousXtian]

Yeah, because there haven't been any great developers who've had to shut their doors even when they've been making fantastic games because publisher screw them over their money nor is any developer forced to make games they'd rather abandon for projects they'd love to work on. Oh, wait... Even Double Fine was in danger just a few months ago. The industry isn't all healthy in all fronts, Kickstarter CAN help in a part of that.

I'm not replying to everything you wrote, mainly because it's all been said before and at this point I don't feel like repeating myself.

..but to this point: Double Fine was in danger partly because Brutal Legend wasn't really that great of a game. That wasn't all the publishers fault, as it was a broken game at it's core.

A lot of the dev houses being closed is because they made mediocre games. You can't live off past games forever before you need to make something that sells and is good. Honestly, what studio that closed (outside of Visceral Melbourne) in 2011 was actually producing decent games that were successes? Well, Black Rock.. but you should blame gamers for not buying Split/Second.

[Raging Spaniard]

Kickstarter is shady, but when you pay for a season pass for a game that ends up having no DLC, thats not shady at all, right?

[Eurocult]

I put in $20 for Republique. I'm getting an iOS & PC version of the game.

OMG what have I DONE???!

[Dacvak]

You're not an idiot, why are you acting like one? You know exactly what he means. Don't be dense.

Eh, he missed the point of the joke, and I'm not in a good mood. (Not being able to eat, drink, or talk in six days will do that). But you're right, shouldn't have said anything.

[outunderthestars]

I put in $20 for Republique. I'm getting an iOS & PC version of the game. OMG what have I DONE???!

Destroyed the sanctity of Butter's Twitter feed, you monster.

[DTKT]

What kind of fantasy land do you live in? Are you telling me every Kickstarter project that gets funded is automatically good?

Of course not, I just mean that usually, project that have a bad pitch or are just a bad idea will not get the money they need. That's not true all the time but it seems to be the case for most Kickstarter projects.

[beril]

My biggest gripe with Kickstarter isn't that I fear scams (or twitter spamming) or companies pocketing part of the money, but that it's such a ridiculously good deal for the ones that can successfully fund the project that way, and pretty much makes every one else look like suckers. That may be a silly argument but it's just my gut feeling.

A lot of developers work for next to nothing, betting their own money, or get investors/publishers and give up most, or all, of the profit from the sales once the game is done. But with kickstarter you get paid in advance, keep complete ownership and 100% of the profits. I guess it's fine if that's the absolutely last resort and the only way to get the project funded, but the deal is so sweet that everyone would want it, but it's a much worse deal for gamers. Not everyone will be able to do it though, it all comes down to how good you are at selling something that doesn't exist.

I'm not sure Kickstarter will add a lot more diversity to gaming in the long run. Convincing a publisher and convincing a crowd is pretty much two sides of the same coin. While the perspective may be a bit different, I think the crowd can be every bit as conservative as the publishers; perhaps even more so as they have less to gain from a gamble with the kickstarter model. So while it may work great for industry veteran X making sequel to classic game Y, but upstart developers with a unique concept may still find it extremely hard to find funding.

[Zefah]

The whole "something bad will inevitably happen, so we should act as if something bad has already happened" logic will never make sense to me.

[Gez]

Heres the biggest scam i have seen so far.

http://www.indiegogo.com/maxpayne3review

Douche wants 500bucks to review Max Payne 3.

[Pachterballs]

Um,

Press even wrote an article for this bit of awfulness.

[Kusagari]

Heres the biggest scam i have seen so far. http://www.indiegogo.com/maxpayne3review Douche wants 500bucks to review Max Payne 3.

Nobody on the planet would donate to that, as attested by the $0 he's earned, so that guys just a dumbass for even setting it up.

[HP_Wuvcraft]

I'm planning to do Kickstarters for my many small indie projects. The most anyone will every pay is $5. The most a project will ever need is $500.

That's great, just don't rely on Kickstarter to do everything for you. That's been going around.

See how one pans out before you decide that is how you are going to create your Indie Army.

[Dacvak]

Um, Press even wrote an article for this bit of awfulness.

From the first sentence in that article:

though that standard has faded recently as people realize that the folks covering games all just people, too

Do they even have editors?

[JimboJones]

My biggest gripe with Kickstarter isn't that I fear scams (or twitter spamming) or companies pocketing part of the money, but that it's such a ridiculously good deal for the ones that can successfully fund the project that way, and pretty much makes every one else look like suckers. That may be a silly argument but it's just my gut feeling. A lot of developers work for next to nothing, betting their own money, or get investors/publishers and give up most, or all, of the profit from the sales once the game is done. But with kickstarter you get paid in advance, keep complete ownership and 100% of the profits. I guess it's fine if that's the absolutely last resort and the only way to get the project funded, but the deal is so sweet that everyone would want it, but it's a much worse deal for gamers. Not everyone will be able to do it though, it all comes down to how good you are at selling something that doesn't exist. I'm not sure Kickstarter will add a lot more diversity to gaming in the long run. Convincing a publisher and convincing a crowd is pretty much two sides of the same coin. While the perspective may be a bit different, I think the crowd can be every bit as conservative as the publishers; perhaps even more so as they have less to gain from a gamble with the kickstarter model. So while it may work great for industry veteran X making sequel to classic game Y, but upstart developers with a unique concept may still find it extremely hard to find funding.

It's there job to convince us, if they don't get funded there idea either sounds kinda crappy, they didn't present the pitch well or there rewards are not worth the asking price.

At the end of the day I don't see how having more avenues to try to get funding is a bad thing.

[whalleywhat]

I'm not replying to everything you wrote, mainly because it's all been said before and at this point I don't feel like repeating myself. ..but to this point: Double Fine was in danger partly because Brutal Legend wasn't really that great of a game. That wasn't all the publishers fault, as it was a broken game at it's core. A lot of the dev houses being closed is because they made mediocre games. You can't live off past games forever before you need to make something that sells and is good. Honestly, what studio that closed (outside of Visceral Melbourne) in 2011 was actually producing decent games that were successes? Well, Black Rock.. but you should blame gamers for not buying Split/Second.

Speaking of not living in the past, Double Fine has made a number of well received games since Brutal Legend and were still looking at having to lay a bunch of people off before the Kickstarter hit. You talk about the current model being perfectly fine, but there used to be room for studios to make a couple of games that weren't total blockbusters.

[mclem]

That's a lot of stuff for $266. That makes me afraid for that campaign, actually.

A lot of the content is content that already exists or will come about in the development process, it just needs to be digitised in some form and distributed.

I'm toying with the idea of going to the $225 level. I'd go higher if there was any way I could realistically get to the open house.

[Zefah]

Heres the biggest scam i have seen so far. http://www.indiegogo.com/maxpayne3review Douche wants 500bucks to review Max Payne 3.

How is that a scam? Do you think he won't deliver on the review of the game?

A dumb idea? Sure! Nothing compelling about it? Definitely! I don't think it's a scam, though.

[krystallinity]

What I absolutely hate about this thread is that it's trying to justify complacency with traditional publisher models.

Yeah guys...traditionally funded games are just doing so well right now. If that's true, then why do the April NPD results represent a 32% decline this year in mainstream titles?

The problem with publishers is that they limit and twist the creative vision of the geniuses for profit. Genres stagnate and over-saturate the market because of one massively-successful title (WoW, Call of Duty), and mainstream gaming becomes an increasingly stale experience.

Kickstarter bypasses all of this. Who cares if the projects are shady? Who cares if they're not any good at the end of the day? The point is...Kickstarter allows innovation to be embraced, not thrown aside for some "tweaks" of what some delusional publisher thinks will sell well.

If anyone is still confused by this, I encourage you to go watch Wasteland 2's pitch video based off of real interactions Mr. Fargo had with publishers about Wasteland 2.

[mclem]

Part of the barrier is that publishers vet these projects, their budgets, the developing team's qualifications, and whether the end product is feasible, etc.

And whether the end product is (believed to be sufficiently) *profitable*. Which I have a massive problem with, because a lot of the games I like to play are unlikely to turn sufficient profit.

I believe that that particular barrier is *too* big and *too* powerful (but I also acknowledge that it's *necessary* for the publishers) in this day and age, and Kickstarter is potentially a way to bypass it. It requires taking on a risk; I'm aware of that, I accept that, but *someone* has to do so, and I'm willing to take on a share of it in so far as I can do so.

[JoshuaJSlone]

Do they even have editors?

I think 1Up is now four people.

[NervousXtian]

Speaking of not living in the past, Double Fine has made a number of well received games since Brutal Legend and were still looking at having to lay a bunch of people off before the Kickstarter hit. You talk about the current model being perfectly fine, but there used to be room for studios to make a couple of games that weren't total blockbusters.

Well no shit, I said as much earlier. As much as I didn't really like Brutal Legend, I loved Costume Quest and Stacked. Trenched was OK.

Games have to sell for a dev to keep people working, this is a business after all.

[NervousXtian]

What I absolutely hate about this thread is that it's trying to justify complacency with traditional publisher models. Yeah guys...traditionally funded games are just doing so well right now. If that's true, then why do the April NPD results represent a 32% decline this year in mainstream titles? The problem with publishers is that they limit and twist the creative vision of the geniuses for profit. Genres stagnate and over-saturate the market because of one massively-successful title (WoW, Call of Duty), and mainstream gaming becomes an increasingly stale experience. .

..or maybe we're nearing the end of a hardware cycle?

[krystallinity]

..or maybe we're nearing the end of a hardware cycle?

That's part of it. Another part is genre stagnancy.

There's a big question as to whether or not we'll still see the same types of games in the next console gen.

Some say that the game industry refreshes itself, while others say that we'll still see the same endless sequels and obvious derivatives.

[AwShucks]

The way I look at it, without the support of these fans a lot of these games wouldn't be getting made because publishers think they wouldn't generate the desired amount of revenue.

Even if you don't contribute to any Kickstarters I still think they are a good thing but in moderation.

[remnant]

..or maybe we're nearing the end of a hardware cycle?

Which doesn't disprove the point. Software should sell regardless of the performance of hardware.

[Graphics Horse]

From the first sentence in that article: Do they even have editors?

The editors all just people, too.

[Zen]

Heres the biggest scam i have seen so far. http://www.indiegogo.com/maxpayne3review Douche wants 500bucks to review Max Payne 3.

No vouches.

[butter_stick]

Heres the biggest scam i have seen so far. http://www.indiegogo.com/maxpayne3review Douche wants 500bucks to review Max Payne 3.

My god.

[Zen]

My god.

Yet no pledges. So any alarm over it is silly. Hell, even if it got funded, who cares.

[Graphics Horse]

Yet no pledges. So any alarm over it is silly. Hell, even if it got funded, who cares.

And to be fair, the first two comments sound very positive...

[whalleywhat]

Well no shit, I said as much earlier. As much as I didn't really like Brutal Legend, I loved Costume Quest and Stacked. Trenched was OK. Games have to sell for a dev to keep people working, this is a business after all.

I'm not really seeing your point. A game which is funded by Kickstarter doesn't need to sell as much as a game which is funded by a publisher in order for people to keep working, as there's a middle man being cut out. Again, you say there's nothing wrong with the current model, but a developer with niche appeal like Double Fine was unable to make the games their fanbase wanted because of the publisher model, and now they can. Your earlier post seemed to imply that they deserved to fail and go away because you didn't like Brutal Legend.

Yet no pledges.

It's probably because of this thread.

[Dacvak]

Heres the biggest scam i have seen so far. http://www.indiegogo.com/maxpayne3review Douche wants 500bucks to review Max Payne 3.

I love seeing things like this, just because it always makes me feel better about myself. That probably makes me a bad person, but dammit, this cheered me up. Same with that poor old guy developing that pile of shit, Gubble 3D. That dude's Kickstarter video was so embarrassing it was tough to watch, and the product-to-date he showed off looked like a cheesy 3rd-party GameCube game. It's hard to imagine how disconnected from the actual gaming world some people are.

[eek5]

I think the review guy is just trying to get pageviews. How could a video review be worth $500? Click and check out my website!! :rolleyes

[Dacvak]

Aww, lol, the Gubble guy canceled his Kickstarter (a few days before it ended) because of the abysmal results. The video is still up, though. If you guys like that kind of embarrassing-to-watch feeling you get from shows like The Office and stuff, definitely check this out.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/...y-ex-atari-des

[ZombieSupaStar]

It's probably because of this thread.

good thing butter stick made it to warn us!

*forgets to breath again*

[stuminus3]

Tim Schafers thing (remember that?) may be good (I guess).

What the fuck is this?

[Yagharek]

...and yet they are not NEARLY as shady to me as big publishers.

This is pretty much the defining point of the argument. Kickstarters wouldnt be needed if publishers by the whole weren't corrupt/misleading/anti-innovation studio-closing investor focussed types.

I accept that games need to be profitable to keep studios running, but publishers seem to stack the deck against developers by insisting on unrealistic AAA presentation values for games that don't need it. Then they abandon the games when marketing would help, and close down the dev studio when they inevitably fail impossible targets.

[butter_stick]

This is pretty much the defining point of the argument. Kickstarters wouldnt be needed if publishers by the whole weren't corrupt/misleading/anti-innovation studio-closing investor focussed types. I accept that games need to be profitable to keep studios running, but publishers seem to stack the deck against developers by insisting on unrealistic AAA presentation values for games that don't need it. Then they abandon the games when marketing would help, and close down the dev studio when they inevitably fail impossible targets.

Fez didn't need a Kickstarter. Fez is awesome. Fez isn't a cookie-cutter Dudebro shooter. The argument that we need Kickstarters in order to get good games at a time when Steam is filled with quality indie titles is lazy.

[Yagharek]

Fez didn't need a Kickstarter. Fez is awesome. Fez isn't a cookie-cutter Dudebro shooter. The argument that we need Kickstarters in order to get good games at a time when Steam is filled with quality indie titles is lazy.

How would you propose to fund games from devs like Oddworld Inhabitants, Free Radical or Bizarre then? All of whom got fucked by EA, Microsoft, Activision, Lucas Arts, Ubisoft and had to close as a result.

[Zefah]

Fez didn't need a Kickstarter. Fez is awesome. Fez isn't a cookie-cutter Dudebro shooter. The argument that we need Kickstarters in order to get good games at a time when Steam is filled with quality indie titles is lazy.

Since some games are getting made via one method, all games should be made via said method and no other methods should be tried.

Is that what you're saying? What about the games that could not be made via said method. Were they just "not good enough" and don't deserve to get made?

[Dreams-Visions]

I would kickstart:

X-Wing 2
Tie Fighter 2
Descent: Freespace 3

with hundreds upon hundreds of dollars.