[Neiteio]

I respect this guy, and I'm a huge fan of the Unreal titles, but I stopped reading when he started off with "Shadows of the Damned needed multiplayer". No it didn't, neither did Vanquish, and I don't even see how the hell that is a remedy to anything. Dead Space 2 had multiplayer, what has it done for it? Mass Effect 3 seems to have a great multiplayer, but who the fuck bought it for that? Everyone bought these games for the SP, a multiplayer competent is a an added value with little lasting appeal. Is this added value worth the time and cost when it'll be a cheap two or three week thrill for the end user? Uncharted 3 has multiplayer, but is that what's selling it? MGS4 has an awesome MP component and it has never had a major impact in its overall rating or perception. Epic are masters of multiplayer but Cliff is trying to staple what sells his games onto completely different titles and audiences.

[codecow]

He's droppin' science, BOW LOW! I like some of the ideas hehe.

[Haunted]

When you 'don't count' stuff like the cover functionality of Gears because a game that 3 people bought had a similar mechanic you're just going into semantics. Gears popularized, evolved, and revolutionized the cover mechanic in shooters. I guess that would be a better way to say it. Was Gears the unquestionable FIRST game to use it? No, but years from now when people think what game started the cover revolution they'll say Gears not Kill.Switch and that's because Gears popularized it and evolved it into an easy-to-use, intuitive mechanic.

Sega Activator did motion controls first and you'll never take that away from me. >:(


Joking aside, I think both Winback and Kill.Switch are notable enough releases to deserve their place in gaming history. Saying that they exist doesn't take anything away from Gears implementing an excellent cover system.

[Baconsammy]

I respect this guy, and I'm a huge fan of the Unreal titles, but I stopped reading when he started off with "Shadows of the Damned needed multiplayer". No it didn't, neither did Vanquish, and I don't even see how the hell that is a remedy to anything. Dead Space 2 had multiplayer, what has it done for it? Mass Effect 3 seems to have a great multiplayer, but who the fuck bought it for that? Everyone bought these games for the SP, a multiplayer competent is a an added value with little lasting appeal. Is this added value worth the time and cost when it'll be a cheap two or three week thrill for the end user? Uncharted 3 has multiplayer, but is that what's selling it? MGS4 has an awesome MP component and it has never had a major impact in its overall rating or perception. Epic are masters of multiplayer but Cliff is trying to staple what sells his games onto completely different titles and audiences.

Vanquish didn't need it, but it sure as shit would have been a better game if it had it. As it was, I enjoyed it as a short rental. Good game, no staying power.

[alexandros]

Stuburns's Michael Bay comparison is PERFECT. That's exactly what Cliffyb (and Epic) is at this point, the Michael Bay of gaming. Big, loud, dumb, lowest-common-denominator games for the masses. Even Cliffyb himself knows it. No amount of Gears fan denial is going to change that.

[Haunted]

I respect this guy, and I'm a huge fan of the Unreal titles, but I stopped reading when he started off with "Shadows of the Damned needed multiplayer". No it didn't, neither did Vanquish, and I don't even see how the hell that is a remedy to anything. Dead Space 2 had multiplayer, what has it done for it? Mass Effect 3 seems to have a great multiplayer, but who the fuck bought it for that? Everyone bought these games for the SP, a multiplayer competent is a an added value with little lasting appeal. Is this added value worth the time and cost when it'll be a cheap two or three week thrill for the end user? Uncharted 3 has multiplayer, but is that what's selling it? MGS4 has an awesome MP component and it has never had a major impact in its overall rating or perception. Epic are masters of multiplayer but Cliff is trying to staple what sells his games onto completely different titles and audiences.

real talk :o

[patapuf]

I respect this guy, and I'm a huge fan of the Unreal titles, but I stopped reading when he started off with "Shadows of the Damned needed multiplayer". No it didn't, neither did Vanquish, and I don't even see how the hell that is a remedy to anything. Dead Space 2 had multiplayer, what has it done for it? Mass Effect 3 seems to have a great multiplayer, but who the fuck bought it for that? Everyone bought these games for the SP, a multiplayer competent is a an added value with little lasting appeal. Is this added value worth the time and cost when it'll be a cheap two or three week thrill for the end user? Uncharted 3 has multiplayer, but is that what's selling it? MGS4 has an awesome MP component and it has never had a major impact in its overall rating or perception. Epic are masters of multiplayer but Cliff is trying to staple what sells his games onto completely different titles and audiences.

i know a lot of people who spent more time with the MP of mass effect and uncharted than with the main game. COD used to be a single player franchise with tacked on MP. Having good MP increases the value of your product. Few are willing to pay 60$ for a 8 hour campain when so many games give so much better value.

[Sophia]

Uncharted 2 having multiplayer is what pushed me to buy it, and it's what keeps the game going back into my PS2 from time to time. Long after I've finished the single player.

A good multiplayer mode does absolute wonders for your game. Be it Demon's/Dark Souls style or more traditional.

[Baconsammy]

i know a lot of people who spent more time with the MP of mass effect and uncharted than with the main game. COD used to be a single player franchise with tacked on MP. Having good MP increases the value of your product. Few are willing to pay 60$ for a 8 hour campain when so many games give so much better value.

Without the MP, Uncharted 3 was nothing more than a 6 hour slog through a rather lame campaign, which they rushed so much that they didn't even bother to include the cheats and extras that were present in past games that add replay value to the single player. Would have rented if not for the MP.

[Arklite]

Vanquish didn't need it, but it sure as shit would have been a better game if it had it. As it was, I enjoyed it as a short rental. Good game, no staying power.

I don't think so, and how long would you have played the multiplayer? Two weeks? Then what? You go back to "real" titles like BF3, MW, Halo, whatever. The point I'm trying to make is that he's suggesting they put time and budget into "throw away" modes that may not even appeal to the intended audience. It's a waste unless your intentions are to make a dedicated long lasting multiplayer game.

I know you probably felt the game had too little meat in it, but the budget would have been better used to add more content rather than attempting to build a multiplayer for 100 people interested in only the first week.

[KingItachi]

Uncharted 2 having multiplayer is what pushed me to buy it, and it's what keeps the game going back into my PS2 from time to time. Long after I've finished the single player. A good multiplayer mode does absolute wonders for your game. Be it Demon's/Dark Souls style or more traditional.

Not for me Mp will never be a reason for me to buy a game.

[Nirolak]

I kind of don't get the "No, Japanese console games are fine as they are now," position.

I mean, I can see why someone would be fine with that creatively, but so far it's resulting in a heavily dwindling number of Japanese console games, and a lot more are being canceled by the day.

If there wasn't any sales problem, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

These days, we're getting to the point where it's more a question of "How many of these things will continue to exist?"

I mean, there's nothing wrong with 95%+ of the Japanese industry switching to handheld and social games, but Cliffy's advise strikes me as more targeted at keeping their console titles profitable enough to stay alive.

[Baconsammy]

I don't think so, and how long would you have played the multiplayer? Two weeks? Then what? You go back to "real" titles like BF3, MW, Halo, whatever. The point I'm trying to make is that he's suggesting they put time and budget into "throw away" modes that may not even appeal to the intended audience. It's a waste unless your intentions are to make a dedicated long lasting multiplayer game.

Cliffys not advising them to make shitty multiplayer modes. He's got ideas to make great MP modes. And he has a history of making great multiplayer modes. The titles you listed as "real" aren't games that interest me, to be honest. Except for Halo's Firefight and online 4 player campaign co-op.

I mean, there's nothing wrong with 95%+ of the Japanese industry switching to handheld and social games, but Cliffy's advise strikes me as more targeted at keeping their console titles profitable enough to stay alive.

This! Cliffy isn't being arrogant. He sounds like someone that sees the landscape and fears that games he loves are going to completely go away. The knee-jerk reaction to bash anything Cliff says is misguided at best. Binary Domain comes out, dies. Bayonetta 2 cancelled. Clearly help is required.

[Sophia]

Not for me Mp will never be a reason for me to buy a game.

I've never understood this aversion to multiplayer that's so prevalent here at GAF. Did you never get together and do a Smash Bros tourney with a few friends? Never just sat around one day and played Goldeneye, Perfect Dark Mario Kart, Marty Party or Red Faction nonstop? Do you not have any real life friends which to get over Ventrilo or Xbox Live and just enjoy a game?

I just can't figure out this sudden aversesivenss to multiplayer. It can only enhance the experience when done right and not tacked on. What, exactly, did Multiplayer do that it'll never ever be a reason to buy a game ever?

[patapuf]

Not for me Mp will never be a reason for me to buy a game.

That's fine but from the perspective of a developper you will get more people to buy your game for 60$ if you have a good mp in addition to a good singleplayer campain.

sure, if you make an rpg with 30+ hours content that works as well but short action games will just get rented or traded in immediately.

edit: just because it deserves to be quoted again:

These days, we're getting to the point where it's more a question of "How many of these things will continue to exist?" I mean, there's nothing wrong with 95%+ of the Japanese industry switching to handheld and social games, but Cliffy's advise strikes me as more targeted at keeping their console titles profitable enough to stay alive.

[Cheech]

Talk about not seeing the forest from the trees. "I don't care about multi, so therefore I don't want my games to have multiplayer elements" is ludicrously short sighted.

The MAJORITY of people who buy games see value in multiplayer. If you don't care about it, that's great, but it's costing these devs money who don't have the foresight to put it into their games.

[Curufinwe]

Talk about not seeing the forest from the trees. "I don't care about multi, so therefore I don't want my games to have multiplayer elements" is ludicrously short sighted. The MAJORITY of people who buy games see value in multiplayer. If you don't care about it, that's great, but it's costing these devs money who don't have the foresight to put it into their games.

Well said.

[eXistor]

He makes good points, but I would not even touch any of those games he described. There's a lot of kinds of mp and I like it in games like Demon's/ Dark Souls because I can actively ignore it and not have it crap up my game, but it's there for people that want it. Having it be integral to the games' dna means I will never play it.

[KingItachi]

I've never understood this aversion to multiplayer that's so prevalent here at GAF. Did you never get together and do a Smash Bros tourney with a few friends? Never just sat around one day and played Goldeneye, Perfect Dark Mario Kart, Marty Party or Red Faction nonstop? Do you not have any real life friends which to get over Ventrilo or Xbox Live and just enjoy a game? I just can't figure out this sudden aversesivenss to multiplayer. It can only enhance the experience when done right and not tacked on. What, exactly, did Multiplayer do that it'll never ever be a reason to buy a game ever?

lol your funny, Mp is not a must have feature for me played most of those games listed they have local mp/coop not pay to play mp/coop.

[Arklite]

I mean, there's nothing wrong with 95%+ of the Japanese industry switching to handheld and social games, but Cliffy's advise strikes me as more targeted at keeping their console titles profitable enough to stay alive.

There's a disconnect here, people have to take into account the games themselves and not look only at a value statement. Vanquish is niche, Shadows of the Damned is niche, Madworld was niche. If we're talking about staying afloat, then is it worth it for the developers to spend time beefing up already niche games with a multiplayer that will be populated by a 100 for the first week? I would say no.

The budget should go to beefing up the game. Dead Space 2 has MP and I seriously doubt its had much of any effect in its sales. They could've saved the money and made DLC.

[Sophia]

lol your funny, Mp is not a must have feature for me played most of those games listed they have local mp/coop not pay to play mp/coop.

Way to dodge the question I was asking entirely.

[KingItachi]

Way to dodge the question I was asking entirely.

I did not dodge it as I said it's not essential to me

[Kai Dracon]

Cliffy's comments are actually original and well thought out, but I agree he's somewhat misguided about Vanquish.

The problem is that he clearly liked the game, but doesn't seem to grasp that it's not 'one half of a great game'. The problem with the American mentality is that the single player part of a game has been relegated to "the campaign". "The campaign" is code for "the warm up to the real game, the other side of the game you'll keep playing". Because competitive or co-op multiplayer has become the only reason a lot of western players bother to play games at all.

But games like Vanquish are not incomplete. It's true that some people here even, played it once then put it away or sold it. That's kind of missing the point; Vanquish is a score attack game. It's meant to be played again and again, for years, to experiment with strategy and optimize performance. In point of fact, Vanquish's only design flaw isn't lack of multiplayer... but that its score attack nature wasn't emphasized more! It needed a more obvious and easy to access framework for it, and more social scoring functions to drive home that you're competing against yourself and other people when playing the game.

This seems to be a fundamental divide in perspective between east and west, even today. The west is all about live human versus human direct combat or competition. The east still seems to place a lot of value on a player attacking a game or experiencing it by themselves, a "man against nature" philosophy. Cliffy cites the Souls series as being innovative, but I wonder if he's fully figured out why. The "mingle" player, to use his term, is a very eastern solution to the problem of bringing people together to play a game cooperatively, without violating the zen of the traditional eastern game. And guess what? By preserving the eastern philosophy and finding an organic way of incorporating western ideas, the Souls series have become superior games, and have acted as a revelation to many western players.

[Nirolak]

There's a disconnect here, people have to take into account the games themselves and not look only at a value statement. Vanquish is niche, Shadows of the Damned is niche, Madworld was niche. If we're talking about staying afloat, then is it worth it for the developers to spend time beefing up already niche games with a multiplayer that will be populated by a 100 for the first week? I would say no. The budget should go to beefing up the game. Dead Space 2 has MP and I seriously doubt its had much of any effect in its sales. They could've saved the money and made DLC.

If we're only making Japanese console games that are profitable enough to stay alive though, what's left of the more unique titles that really resonate with their niche?

I mean, the reason people talk about changes to Vanquish, Shadows, and MadWorld is that they weren't financially successful, and thus we'll never see sequels or possibly even other games like them.

[Sophia]

I did not dodge it as I said it's not essential to me.

Why is it not essential to you? Why are you so aversive to it?

If we're only making Japanese console games that are profitable enough to stay alive though, what's left of the more unique titles that really resonate with their niche? I mean, the reason people talk about changes to Vanquish, Shadows, and MadWorld is that they weren't financially successful, and thus we'll never see sequels or possibly even other games like them.

To be fair to Shadows of the Damned, it had far bigger problems than merely not having multiplayer. EA gave it a horrible marketing campaign, and until I read more into it of my own violation (which wouldn't have happened without GAF), I would have forever only known that god awful cover art and title.

[KingItachi]

There's a disconnect here, people have to take into account the games themselves and not look only at a value statement. Vanquish is niche, Shadows of the Damned is niche, Madworld was niche. If we're talking about staying afloat, then is it worth it for the developers to spend time beefing up already niche games with a multiplayer that will be populated by a 100 for the first week? I would say no. The budget should go to beefing up the game. Dead Space 2 has MP and I seriously doubt its had much of any effect in its sales. They could've saved the money and made DLC.

I agree with this.

[Refreshment.01]

Active Reload and Horde Mode are the innovations Gears brought to the table, I'd say. That its success inspired many other games to copy them and the other features that defined Gears (even if it didn't invent them) is an achievement - though like with most copied features that turned out to be a double-edged sword.

Horde mode is inspired by The Mercenaries from RE4.

Gears is a competent game and an elite part of the shooter genre. However, it-s not an original game at all. Is a collection of ideas borrowed mostly from japanese action games with an outstanding execution.

[Sophia]

When it comes to video games, that outstanding execution is often what matters. It's that whole package being of a high enough quality that makes a game revolutionary and amazing.

[gogogow]

Binary Domain comes out, dies. Bayonetta 2 cancelled. Clearly help is required.

Bayonetta 2 being cancelled is nothing more than a rumour. Even if true, it has more to do with Sega's shitty financial situation more than anything else. I don't see Capcom cancelling their DmC game. And what kind of help did BD need?

[KingItachi]

[QUOTE=Marrshu;37803691]Why is it not essential to you? Why are you so aversive to it?



I prefer the single player experience.

[2San]

Horde mode is inspired by The Mercenaries from RE4. Gears is a competent and is an elite part of the shooter genre. However, it-s not an original game at all. Is a collection of ideas borrowed mostly from japanese action games with an outstanding execution.

So which game has the wall sliding/canceling/bouncing mechanic again. Nor are there many 3rd person shooters that put such an emphasis on cooperation and team play.

There's a disconnect here, people have to take into account the games themselves and not look only at a value statement. Vanquish is niche, Shadows of the Damned is niche, Madworld was niche. If we're talking about staying afloat, then is it worth it for the developers to spend time beefing up already niche games with a multiplayer that will be populated by a 100 for the first week? I would say no. The budget should go to beefing up the game. Dead Space 2 has MP and I seriously doubt its had much of any effect in its sales. They could've saved the money and made DLC.

Dunno when platinum games has money to waste on Anarchy reigns, a co-op multiplayer Vanquish seems a lot more logical to me.

[Sophia]

I prefer the single player experience.

I didn't ask what you prefer, I asked why? You keep constantly dodging or deflecting the question I'm asking. What, exactly, about multiplayer is so off-putting that you prefer the single player experience to such a degree? :P

What about stuff like Demon's Souls and Dark Souls and their multiplayer? What about Spec Ops in Modern Warfare 3?

For example I don't like DOTAs or RTSs. Not because I don't like the competitive aspect (I do!), but because the type of community those games tend to gather is rather hateful.

Dunno when platinum games has money to waste on Anarchy reigns, a co-op multiplayer Vanquish seems a lot more logical to me.

I have a very bad feeling that Anarchy Reigns is going to run into the exact same problem MadWorld did. Deep down, MadWorld was ultimately a flawed if good arcade style beat em up at it's core. In trying it's hardest to not be like a Japanese game, it ended up being the most Japanese game to come out at the time. The consumer audience saw right through it, really...

[Arklite]

If we're only making Japanese console games that are profitable enough to stay alive though, what's left of the more unique titles that really resonate with their niche? I mean, the reason people talk about changes to Vanquish, Shadows, and MadWorld is that they weren't financially successful, and thus we'll never see sequels or possibly even other games like them.

I don't believe the core problems with these games are from lacking multiplayer. First problem is their niche status, second is the short runs, and third is their general lack of promotion (except for Madworld). The solution for Shadow and Vanquish would have been longer SP, more content, more of what makes the games great, not adding modes that just take away from the core experience.

In the context of Vanquish no one put it better than the Gametrailers review:

"Vanquish is a sleek focused action game, every individual element tuned for a demanding, fast paced and highly enjoyable experience. It's possible to play the game like a standard cover based shooter....or imagine the concept of bullet time actually working in a multiplayer game. But to do any of these things is to miss the point. Vanquish offers you the opportunity to test yourself in a way many games shy away from, and the rewards are unquestionable worth the effort."

This is what they needed to increase, to expand on, to add value to the core experience, and it's a point I think Cliffy is missing.

[DUFFMCWALIN]

Some good thoughts from Cliff. I agree that alot of games don't need multiplayer but something has to be done to the average Japanese console game. They aren't selling what they used to. Its funny to come in here and watch posters with anime avartars melt down because of multiplayer.

[UrbanRats]

The Silent Hill series for me was like Highlander, which for me stopped after the first one.

Let's face it, Highlander 1 is a shit movie.

[ShdwDrake]

I like his ideas. It's not like he's saying "put in multiplayer" hes saying "put in a social aspect that fits your game".

Also, I would've loved Vanquish multi.

[SolidSnakex]

If we're only making Japanese console games that are profitable enough to stay alive though, what's left of the more unique titles that really resonate with their niche? I mean, the reason people talk about changes to Vanquish, Shadows, and MadWorld is that they weren't financially successful, and thus we'll never see sequels or possibly even other games like them.

Multiplayer would've just increased the budgets and made it more difficult for them to break even or turn a profit. People want to talk about why Japanese games don't sell in the west but they rarely talk about the near non-existent marketing that goes on with them. Nearly every game that sells well this gen has received a lot of marketing. If people don't know that a game exists then they aren't going to buy it. And that's the case with many Japanese games. They actually tend to sell pretty damn well when they're actually marketed.

[2San]

This is what they needed to increase, to expand on, to add value to the core experience, and it's a point I think Cliffy is missing.

You act like this all will magically disappear when you add a co-op/versus mode.

I have a very bad feeling that Anarchy Reigns is going to run into the exact same problem MadWorld did. Deep down, MadWorld was ultimately a flawed if good arcade style beat em up at it's core. In trying it's hardest to not be like a Japanesegame , it ended up being the most Japanese game to come out at the time. The consumer audience saw right through it, really...

I think the game is pretty interesting, but the marketing/sales have their work cut out for them.

[Fixed1979]

Woah Cliffy has a lot of Wisdom to give.

is that what they call it?

[Sophia]

I think the game is pretty interesting, but the marketing/sales have their work cut out for them.

If they're smart, they'll push heavily the DOTA style aspects to Anarchy Reigns. That I think will give it legs in the western markets.

[KingItachi]

I didn't ask what you prefer, I asked why? You keep constantly dodging or deflecting the question I'm asking. What, exactly, about multiplayer is so off-putting that you prefer the single player experience to such a degree? :P What about stuff like Demon's Souls and Dark Souls and their multiplayer? What about Spec Ops in Modern Warfare 3?

As for Demon's Souls played it offline will do the same with Dark Souls I don't need Mp in Action Rpg's. as for COD have not played it since 4 I have issues with Activision; It's off putting because I don't like mp in games that don't need it.

[gogogow]

If we're only making Japanese console games that are profitable enough to stay alive though, what's left of the more unique titles that really resonate with their niche? I mean, the reason people talk about changes to Vanquish, Shadows, and MadWorld is that they weren't financially successful, and thus we'll never see sequels or possibly even other games like them.

What's so different then with Western niche games? They don't get made either. Western publishers are hesistant to fund them and needs to be kickstarted. We are seeing a lot of Asscreeds, CODs, UC's, Elder Scrolls, BFs etc. Maybe we need a Kickstarter JP edition.

Adding MP modes to those JP games won't do anything at all. They will still bomb the same way as they are now. How many games are actually popular for their MP modes? COD, BF, Gears and Halo. Same with MMORPGs, how many can actually be the next WoW? I'm not saying JP devs shouldn't put MP in their games (where it makes sense), but most of them probably think it's not worth it with the added cost (longer dev time, setting up servers, beta testing, continues support to fix bugs etc.)

Look at Binary Domain, it has SP campaign, MP, Western appeal and still bombed. It has to do with marketing budget more than anything.

Shadows of the Damned, by Suda51 x Mikami!!!! And then no marketing at all by EA, no shit it's going to bomb. Same with all Sega's games that isn't Mario & Sonic, especially outside Japan. Bayonetta sold very well in Japan, almost as much as DMC4, because it was marketed really well and how much did Sega spend in the US/EU?

[Nirolak]

Multiplayer would've just increased the budgets and made it more difficult for them to break even or turn a profit. People want to talk about why Japanese games don't sell in the west but they rarely talk about the near non-existent marketing that goes on with them. Nearly every game that sells well this gen has received a lot of marketing. If people don't know that a game exists then they aren't going to buy it. And that's the case with many Japanese games. They actually tend to sell pretty damn well when they're actually marketed.

Which third party Japanese console games do you feel have sold especially well in the past two years to the point where they're guaranteed a sequel?

[Sophia]

As for Demon's Souls played it offline will do the same with Dark Souls I don't need Mp in Action Rpg's. as for COD have not played it since 4 I have issues with Activision; It's off putting because I don't like mp in games that don't need it.

Given that you've dodged the question three times now. I'm going to have to go with "It's Popular, Now It Sucks."

By the way, you really missed out on some of the best aspects of Demon's Souls by playing it offline. Not to mention that you probably made it harder for yourself. :p

Look at Binary Domain, it has SP campaign, MP, Western appeal and still bombed. It has to do with marketing budget more than anything.

If the demos for Binary Domain are any indication, it bombed because it was a poor man's Gears of War. The demo certainly didn't tell me "GO BUY THIS RIGHT AWAY IT'S AMAZING!" like most good demos do, and I didn't have any interest in the game before trying the demo so...

[Nirolak]

What's so different then with Western niche games? They don't get made either. Western publishers are hesistant to fund them and needs to be kickstarted. We are seeing a lot of Asscreeds, CODs, UC's, Elder Scrolls, BFs etc. Maybe we need a Kickstarter JP edition. Adding MP modes to those JP games won't do anything at all. They will still bomb the same way as they are now. How many games are actually popular for their MP modes? COD, BF, Gears and Halo. Same with MMORPGs, how many can actually be the next WoW? I'm not saying JP devs shouldn't put MP in their games (where it makes sense), but most of them probably think it's not worth it with the added cost (longer dev time, setting up servers, beta testing, continues support to fix bugs etc.) Look at Binary Domain, it has SP campaign, MP, Western appeal and still bombed. It has to do with marketing budget more than anything. Shadows of the Damned, by Suda51 x Mikami!!!! And then no marketing at all by EA, no shit it's going to bomb.

I do feel there's a complete polarization of the market across the board, yes. I don't think that "They're all screwed anyway, stop trying since non-dudebro games will never make money past the budget of really low end titles like Atelier." is necessarily a wrong argument, and was the one charlequin basically presented to me when I asked him for an answer to the interview question, but I don't think it's necessarily the most optimistic answer possible for someone hoping for good advice.

[KingItachi]

Given that you've dodged the question three times now. I'm going to have to go with "It's Popular, Now It Sucks." By the way, you really missed out on some of the best aspects of Demon's Souls by playing it offline. Not to mention that you probably made it harder for yourself. :p

I don't mind the challenge as for the it's popular it suck thing think that if you will, I have never been a fan of mp and coop in certain games I rather run through the game myself.

[Sophia]

I don't mind the challenge as for the it's popular it suck thing think that if you will, I have never been a fan of mp and coop in certain games I rather run through the game myself.

Take Demon's Souls for example; You missed out on the social aspect of communication that comes from the note and phantom system, and you missed the fear of dread that could come from another player invading your world. The former is such a fundamental aspect of the game that I can't help but wonder why you would even bother with the game at all...

Your hatred of multiplayer and co-op is really irrational, and this is coming from someone who has an official diagnosis of Social Anxiety Disorder. I could understand if it was because you don't like the atmosphere of such games, or something else. But you provide no reason beyond "I JUST DON'T!!!!!"

[gogogow]

If the demos for Binary Domain are any indication, it bombed because it was a poor man's Gears of War. The demo certainly didn't tell me "GO BUY THIS RIGHT AWAY IT'S AMAZING!" like most good demos do, and I didn't have any interest in the game before trying the demo so...

That could indeed be one of the reasons why it bombed. So should JP still appeal to Western gamers or should they do their own thing? Do what they're good at and still bomb in the West but sell good in Japan? See Yakuza. Or appeal to Western markets and bomb everywhere, see Binary Domain.

[Error]

he nailed it with his souls games comment. I haven't played a game that has successfully blended sp/mp as well as those 2 games.

[Nirolak]

I don't believe the core problems with these games are from lacking multiplayer. First problem is their niche status, second is the short runs, and third is their general lack of promotion (except for Madworld). The solution for Shadow and Vanquish would have been longer SP, more content, more of what makes the games great, not adding modes that just take away from the core experience. In the context of Vanquish no one put it better than the Gametrailers review: This is what they needed to increase, to expand on, to add value to the core experience, and it's a point I think Cliffy is missing.

Say Vanquish was twice as long though and had more variety/polish. What stops the used game/rented game/borrowed copy wave from drowning its sales?

I mean, going back to your earlier Western franchise example, Dead Space 1 actually had a pretty huge number of unique users, but much of this got drowned by that.