[goku1693]

Yeah Im sure this topic has been brought more times than any nerd can count, but I am legitimately curious to know if it has ever been explained by Lucas or some official explanation ever made. Per discussion with my roommate last night, whom both of us are huge Star Wars fans, how exactly did the Rebellion beat the massive Imperial fleet, which by admission by many people was only a small part of the actual Imperia armada? I mean essentially it was three Mon Cal cruisers, 50 fighters, 20 "Heavy" transport ships and a medical frigate(and why thats even there is also a mystery), versus easily 45 or so Star Destroyers, 1 Super Star Destroyer and few hundred Tie Fighters. Are we to assume that the rebel fleet was much larger, but due to effects we are not able to see it? Or are the we to believe that the Imperial fleet is that inept?

Not a star wars hate thread by any means, like I said I love star wars, but im just curious what the answer is.

[Horse Detective]

Confused about Star Wars.

[Nightshade1765]

Because they had heart, man. Good always prevails. Pew-pew-pew lasers and space shit.

[FlawlessCowboy]

Bastila's battle meditation.

Obviously.

[Stinkles]

Yeah Im sure this topic has been brought more times than any nerd can count, but I am legitimately curious to know if it has ever been explained by Lucas or some official explanation ever made. Per discussion with my roommate last night, whom both of us are huge Star Wars fans, how exactly did the Rebellion beat the massive Imperial fleet, which by admission by many people was only a small part of the actual Imperia armada? I mean essentially it was three Mon Cal cruisers, 50 fighters, 20 "Heavy" transport ships and a medical frigate(and why thats even there is also a mystery), versus easily 45 or so Star Destroyers, 1 Super Star Destroyer and few hundred Tie Fighters. Are we to assume that the rebel fleet was much larger, but due to effects we are not able to see it? Or are the we to believe that the Imperial fleet is that inept? Not a star wars hate thread by any means, like I said I love star wars, but im just curious what the answer is.

THAT'S your pLothole? That's the most logical part of the series. How about magic powers from space germs?

[BattleMonkey]

Yeah Im sure this topic has been brought more times than any nerd can count, but I am legitimately curious to know if it has ever been explained by Lucas or some official explanation ever made. Per discussion with my roommate last night, whom both of us are huge Star Wars fans, how exactly did the Rebellion beat the massive Imperial fleet, which by admission by many people was only a small part of the actual Imperia armada? I mean essentially it was three Mon Cal cruisers, 50 fighters, 20 "Heavy" transport ships and a medical frigate(and why thats even there is also a mystery), versus easily 45 or so Star Destroyers, 1 Super Star Destroyer and few hundred Tie Fighters. Are we to assume that the rebel fleet was much larger, but due to effects we are not able to see it? Or are the we to believe that the Imperial fleet is that inept? Not a star wars hate thread by any means, like I said I love star wars, but im just curious what the answer is.

When the DSII blew up, both fleets had to retreat, the battle had stopped basically as the blast would have taken them all out. With the DS and the Flagship destroyed, the leadership of the Empire was in panic, some Captains apparently jumped out of the system as the DS was about to blow and afterwards. Command of the fleet was lost and individual Captains had to make decisions of their vessels while both fleets had already disengaged from the area because of the destruction.

The rebel fleet numbers are also a matter of contention since we see far more Rebel ships leaving the death star when it is destroyed than what jumped into the system. We also see a number of the ships destroyed by the Death Star yet there are more later on in the battle. Supposedly more ships joined the rebel side during the battle... reinforcements from different staging points perhaps.

[goku1693]

THAT'S your pLothole? That's the most logical part of the series. How about magic powers from space germs?

Fantasy doesnt bother me, and yes the Meta whatever they were called was stupid, but thats what was bothering me!

[Loofy]

I dont get the whole concept of the 'Empire.'
From the prequels it looks like theyre basically the United Nations. How do hundreds of alien races turn evil all of a sudden? thats some amazing jedi mind tricks.

[apana]

I dont get the whole concept of the 'Empire.' From the prequels it looks like theyre basically the United Nations. How do hundreds of alien races turn evil all of a sudden? thats some amazing jedi mind tricks.

Cuz they killed younglings and shit.

[Suairyu]

I dont get the whole concept of the 'Empire.' From the prequels it looks like theyre basically the United Nations. How do hundreds of alien races turn evil all of a sudden? thats some amazing jedi mind tricks.

In Episode III it turns into an Empire.

Then the Expanded Universe stuff says he uses a lot of Jedi mind control. It's not so much that the entire empire is evil, more that the Emperor is able to keep the people in charge under his control.

[Jackpot]

The Emperor had a Battle Meditation buff going. Him dead meant disarray.

[GillianSeed79]

It's somewhat explained in the expanded universe I believe. While the rebels do kill the emperor and blow up the second death star at the end of ROTJ, I believe the Empire's fleet and the Empire itself is still a force to be reckoned with at least throughout the first EU trilogy. Though it's been like 15 years since I read any of the books, so I'm probably remembering wrong.

[BertramCooper]

Because the Force.

[goku1693]

It's somewhat explained in the expanded universe I believe. While the rebels do kill the emperor and blow up the second death star at the end of ROTJ, I believe the Empire's fleet and the Empire itself is still a force to be reckoned with at least throughout the first EU trilogy. Though it's been like 15 years since I read any of the books, so I'm probably remembering wrong.

No your right, the Emipires fleet is still massive, but seriously though, the rebel fleet at the end of ROTJ shouldnt have won.

[Not a Jellyfish]

THAT'S your pLothole? That's the most logical part of the series. How about magic powers from space germs?

That is not a plot hole....that is part of the fiction of the story.

Now a small fleet defeating a huge army without any indication of magical help is something that is tough to stomach for most.

[antonz]

Basically Lucas wrote it so the Empire was comprised of incompetent yes man that through magic powers became super genius strategic minds etc but when Palpatine died the magic went away and you were left with blubbering babies.

[Stinkles]

That is not a plot hole....that is part of the fiction of the story. Now a small fleet defeating a huge army without any indication of magical help is something that is tough to stomach for most.

It's a plothole when it previously explained as a mysterious force.then later (but chronologically earlier) is defined asa specific scientific function of biology.

[Not a Jellyfish]

It's a plothole when it previously explained as a mysterious force.then later (but chronologically earlier) is defined asa specific scientific function of biology.

No, then it is just a continuity error. haha

[darthbob]

The Emperor had a Battle Meditation buff going. Him dead meant disarray.

Essentially this.

The Imperial fleet was not meant to attack the Rebel fleet during the Battle of Endor, as the Emperor's hubris was going to be personified in the Death Star destroying the fleet one by one. Hence why Piett remarks that they're only meant to prevent [the rebels] from escaping.

After the Emperor died, and the Death Star destroyed, not to mention the Executor also destroyed, the Imperial fleet was in shambles, and as Grand Admiral Thrawn would later remark, the Imperials behaved like cadets, not the Emperor's finest.

[THE NO LIFE KING]

Because the Force.

This man speaks the truth

[scy]

Ewoks, my man. Ewoks.

[apana]

I choose to ignore the existence of battle meditation and medichlorines.

[disappeared]

Grand Moff Tarkin and the majority of the higher-ups were aboard the first Death Star when it blew up. That would have put a huge dent in the Imperial Fleet's momentum. And Vader was sent spiraling into space, which by all means probably led to widespread rumor that he had died. And they didn't even have the second Death Star finished when it was destroyed, which also meant the death of the Emperor and Vader. My guess is that the remaining Imperial forces were forced into small clusters around the galaxy, and they never recovered.

[Arment]

They were basically holding on until the Death Star blew up. After that who knows what the fuck happened. All I know is that Ewok party looked awesome.

Like above me says, it's probably that their whole command structure was just wiped out of existence and after that the fleet dispersed.

[Little Old Man]

I'd love to get into the expanded universe stuff, and some of it seems good such as expanding upon the Empire in many ways, what it did before/after each of the movies, especially ESB and ROTJ etc.

Some of it seems awful though- resurrecting the Emperor through cloning? Luke turning to the Dark Side then coming back?

Actually question. If you look at the expanded universe, it seems the Sith taking over, beating the Republic, ruling the galaxy, etc before being overcome by 'good' has happened a few times. So what makes the particular case of Star Wars so special? Talk of Darth Vader being prophesied in the EU thousands of years before he was born etc? Loads of similar talk in the prequels?

[Guerrillas in the Mist]

I thought this was going to be about the stormtrooper smacking his head off the bulkhead.

As for your plothole, there's the principle of mass, where the smaller more mobile and flexible force can mass in one area for a tactical advantage, while the bigger group has to garrison, occupy and protect many areas. It's a principle used by guerilla forces and insurgencies in the real world.

[antonz]

I'd love to get into the expanded universe stuff, and some of it seems good such as expanding upon the Empire in many ways, what it did before/after each of the movies, especially ESB and ROTJ etc. Some of it seems awful though- resurrecting the Emperor through cloning? Luke turning to the Dark Side then coming back? Actually question. If you look at the expanded universe, it seems the Sith taking over, beating the Republic, ruling the galaxy, etc before being overcome by 'good' has happened a few times. So what makes the particular case of Star Wars so special? Talk of Darth Vader being prophesied in the EU thousands of years before he was born etc? Loads of similar talk in the prequels?

The force seems like a galactic asshole really going off the full expanded lore.

The Sith always Return and kill trillions and enslave until they are felled by a chosen one then the Sith go into hiding lick their wounds and rebuild and the cycle repeats itself.

[Guerrillas in the Mist]

They were basically holding on until the Death Star blew up. After that who knows what the fuck happened. All I know is that Ewok party looked awesome. Like above me says, it's probably that their whole command structure was just wiped out of existence and after that the fleet dispersed.

According to the EU, every person with a few ships called themselves the next Emperor, in other words, anarchy and civil war.

[Escape Goat]

Why does the Empire design equipment with such obvious exploits?

[Munin]

See also: Vietnam war.

[dluu13]

An entire legion of the Emperor's finest troops, who awaited the rebel strike force got Endor, got defeated by their small team and a bunch of teddy bears.

[Moaradin]

The Empire put way too much faith into the Death Star.

[dluu13]

But all the bad guys are like this. They put all their faith into one super strong weapon and a bunch of tiny little weenies.

[Fari]

An entire legion of the Emperor's finest troops, who awaited the rebel strike force got Endor, got defeated by their small team and a bunch of teddy bears.

It becomes slightly less silly if you treat it as a Vietnam allegory.

[disappeared]

The Empire put way too much faith into the Death Star.

That's exactly it. They basically banked 100% of their resources on the Death Star, going so far as to keep all of their top-tier officials there (minus the Emperor).

Maybe the Emperor knew the first DS was fucked.

[Escape Goat]

That's exactly it. They basically banked 100% of their resources on the Death Star, going so far as to keep all of their top-tier officials there (minus the Emperor).

So the Empire was just a bunch of incompetent humans with enough resources to zerg any opposition.

[ElectricBlue187]

Confused about Star Wars.

what am I watching. how do you find these things?

[Ninja Scooter]

So the Empire was just a bunch of incompetent humans with enough resources to zerg any opposition.

aka America

[Magnus]

This doesn't fit the definition of a plot hole. It's an unlikely victory between inequal forces, and the good guys win. Happens in a million stories.

[D.Lo]

Death Star 1 destroyed. Yay! It's over! We won! Giant party/ceremony with medals for everyone except Chewy!

Oh no, wait, we're still on the run, hiding in ice land? Oh well, I guess the Empire is much bigger than one ship and a few troops. Also the rebellion is basically defeated, captured, maimed or killed.

Regroup. Kill a small force in forest land. Death Star 2 destroyed. Yay! It's over! We won!

Wait, what?

[Kinyou]

Let's talk about the real issue here. Why was the Naboo space blockade only 2 dimensional?!



What the hell? Any ship that just flies "upwards" (as expertly illustrated below) can easily avoid all those ships!



What the hell lucas! WHAT. THE. HELL.






STOP LAUGHING AT ME!

[Escape Goat]

Let's talk about the real issue here. Why was the Naboo space blockade only 2 dimensional?! [IG]http://www.abload.de/img/20070209belagerungnabiqzms.jpg[/IMG] What the hell? Any ship that just flies "upwards" (as expertly illustrated below) can easily avoid all those ships! [IG]http://www.abload.de/img/20070209belagerungnabshlm1.jpg[/IMG] What the hell lucas! WHAT. THE. HELL. [IG]http://www.abload.de/img/spielberg_lucas_fordqux24.jpg[/IMG] STOP LAUGHING AT ME!

Yeah, who didn't think about flying around the otherside of the planet.

*insert more Red Letter Media review critiques here*

[Little Old Man]

Yeah, who didn't think about flying around the otherside of the planet. *insert more Red Letter Media review critiques here*

Well to be fair wasn't the Republic sending a ship and diplomats (Jedi) to discuss the blockade with the TF, and hence landed as planned in the battlestation?

[Phobophile]

But what about all those contractors working on the Death Star?

[Kinyou]

Well to be fair wasn't the Republic sending a ship and diplomats (Jedi) to discuss the blockade with the TF, and hence landed as planned in the battlestation?

But when they escaped from Naboo (with that fancy chrome ship) they flew right into it. Not above or below, no, straight through.

[BigJonsson]

Maybe because the commanders of the fleet finally had an opportunity to escape the Emperor's iron grip, they weren't scared into line anymore!

[StalkerUKCG]

Battle Meditation

[disappeared]

Battle Meditation

My memory is fuzzy, but was that ever established in any of the six films? Or was it an EU thing? I only remember first hearing it in Knights of the Old Republic.

[Escape Goat]

Well to be fair wasn't the Republic sending a ship and diplomats (Jedi) to discuss the blockade with the TF, and hence landed as planned in the battlestation?

let me illustrate *cracks knuckles*

[Kettch]

Grand Moff Tarkin and the majority of the higher-ups were aboard the first Death Star when it blew up. That would have put a huge dent in the Imperial Fleet's momentum. And Vader was sent spiraling into space, which by all means probably led to widespread rumor that he had died. And they didn't even have the second Death Star finished when it was destroyed, which also meant the death of the Emperor and Vader. My guess is that the remaining Imperial forces were forced into small clusters around the galaxy, and they never recovered.

Also recall that in the original Star Wars the Emperor disbanded the Senate and handed power over to the regional governors.

"Fear will keep the local systems in line, fear of this battle station."

With the new death star destroyed, the Emperor and Vader both dead and the command structure of the fleet in shambles with the flagship gone it's not surprising that any coordinated effort would be impossible at that point. The Empire would have immediately fractured into various warlords/governors vying for power rather than opposing the rebels.