[Anuxinamoon]

One of the major things I am not looking forward to when I move back tot he states!

I was really confused with the healthcare in the US when I moved there. I had private healthcare benefits from my company (that I still had to pay monthly for anyway :/) and it was super weird. I could only go to this doctor in Redwood city, when I lived right next door to a clinic in Redwood Shores. I tried to walk in at the clinic next to my house and they turned me away because my insurance was Kiser and not Anthem blue cross or whatever. I asked if I could just go here anyway because I didn't want to take a taxi to my appointed doctor and they told me some hoops i had to jump through, ring some call centre and they might get me an appointment at the clinic that week.

Totally different to Australia, where I can get free care at public hospitals/clinics, or if I want to go to a private medical centre, I just walk in, sign a new patient form and cough up 60 bucks for the visit and the government rebates me 50% of it.
All my drugs are discounted by medicare by a good amount.

American healthcare made me wish I never ever ever got sick. It was just so foreign and unintuitive. I suppose I just wasn't used to it. When I told my friends there about how bad Australian healthcare is compared to the UK they were all like, "Well at least its better than here!!!"

[dojokun]

Equating Obama's healthcare with universal healthcare is utter nonsense. Obama's healthcare reform isn't 'universal healthcare'. It's more along the lines of forcing Americans to purchase a private product that they couldn't afford before, but knocking them on the head with fines if they don't purchase the product. That is in no way similar to a public option that would be funded via taxes.

Exactly. Obamacare actually makes it HARDER to get universal healthcare because the companies that lobby against universal healthcare are the ones making more money off of Obamacare.

[spwolf]

I think most Americans would probably be paying less than they do now if we went to a single payer system, but nobody in power wants to explain this to the public so we're stuck with the shit we have now.

Well no.

Yes, a better system needs to be found but in Germany:

1. State takes 45-50% of your gross paycheck. If your employer gives €5000 for you, you will get less than €2500 in your bank account.
2. VAT (sales tax) is 19%.
3. Combination of both above makes life more expensive - cars are 30%-50% more in Germany than in USA.

Thats considerably more taxes than in USA. And I think Germany is one of the most entrepreneurial countries, taxes are larger in most other parts of Europe.

So it is not that simple. I agree that US system doesnt work, but I dont think putting in European tax system would ever happen.

[Rikyfree]

This can be answered quite simply, my German neighbors: The majority of US voters are older, misinformed and really fucking stupid.

[Gustav]

Well no. Yes, a better system needs to be found but in Germany: 1. State takes 45-50% of your gross paycheck. If your employer gives €5000 for you, you will get less than €2500 in your bank account.2. VAT (sales tax) is 19%. 3. Combination of both above makes life more expensive - cars are 30%-50% more in Germany than in USA. Thats considerably more taxes than in USA. And I think Germany is one of the most entrepreneurial countries, taxes are larger in most other parts of Europe. So it is not that simple. I agree that US system doesnt work, but I dont think putting in European tax system would ever happen.

Not true:

[Moppet13]

This can be answered quite simply, my German neighbors: The majority of US voters are older, misinformed and really fucking stupid.

It's as much old peoples fault as younger peoples fault in that case.

[PdotMichael]

Not true:

and add the different tax exemptions for different things.
In the end ~3000€ is more likely.

[murderofMonkey]

and add the different tax exemptions for different things. In the end ~3000€ is more likely.

also, add the fact that even cheap beer is premium

[Something Wicked]

What else confuses Germans?

jokes

Well no. Yes, a better system needs to be found but in Germany: 1. State takes 45-50% of your gross paycheck. If your employer gives €5000 for you, you will get less than €2500 in your bank account. 2. VAT (sales tax) is 19%. 3. Combination of both above makes life more expensive - cars are 30%-50% more in Germany than in USA. Thats considerably more taxes than in USA. And I think Germany is one of the most entrepreneurial countries, taxes are larger in most other parts of Europe. So it is not that simple. I agree that US system doesnt work, but I dont think putting in European tax system would ever happen.

Yeah, those extra taxes and costs of living would exceed my annual private healthcare costs. I'll stick with the USA- more cash for video games and less wait times at the clinic.

[Kong Fisso]

jokes Yeah, those extra taxes and costs of living would exceed my annual private healthcare costs. I'll stick with the USA- more cash for video games and less wait times at the clinic.

is this a joke as well?

[rvy]

Most of the developed world probably agrees.

Pretty much.

[PdotMichael]

also, add the fact that even cheap beer is premium

or not paying 20% tips

[Rourkey]

You have to hand it to the Rich man controlled American Media who have convinced the people that having free healthcare for all is actually something to be feared.

Goebbels would be proud

[Mecha_Infantry]

What else confuses Germans?

Premiership clubs

[DEO3]

A large majority of Americans actually do favor universal health care, something like 62-38% last I checked. The problem isn't the people, it's the people's representatives in government. The Republican and Democratic parties learned a long time ago that since we have a first-past-the-post two-party system in the States, people will be forced to vote for one of them no matter what, and that being the case, they can get away with representing interests other than the people's - such as investment banks, big media, insurance and pharmaceutical companies, etc.

[SyNapSe]

Exactly. Obamacare actually makes it HARDER to get universal healthcare because the companies that lobby against universal healthcare are the ones making more money off of Obamacare.

The fact that big pharma was actually running ads promoting the health care bill tells me everything I need to know :\ The bill doesn't provide universal healthcare so the title of the thread is a bit off. It forces people to have healthcare insurance and it does include some great pieces to help those in need.

In the end the bill doesn't bring healthcare spending back inline nor does it do anything to curb the 10%+ amount that costs are rising each year. Despite the claims that it'll save money each year, I'm pretty iffy on that happening and if it does it's going to be via a bunch of taxes that aren't called raising taxes. Things like cutting medicare cost which then causes providers to charge private insurance more money.

Of course, liberal groups and union leaders have made misleading claims about this Cadillac tax, saying it would really hit middle-class workers – lots of them. But economists in general back this idea, and the thinking behind it isn’t to raise money by slamming workers with a 40 percent tax. On the contrary, the Joint Committee on Taxation and the Congressional Budget Office believe the tax will boost paychecks. They say the existence of the tax will prompt employers and employees to choose less expensive health plans. In lieu of the higher cost benefits, employers will raise salaries. And that’s how the government really makes its revenue here: on payroll and income taxes on those higher paychecks.

When I first read about the Cadillac tax I thought, yeah that makes sense. Then you find out by 2019 they expect it to affect somewhere between 35 and 40% of Americans. What the fuck? I don't see a whole lot of employers doing anything but cutting benefits and explaining to employees that the government forced them to do it with the new tax. In this market, they aren't going to turn around and up people's salaries. Even if they did, it'd still be a net loss for me because I'm going to turn around and pay taxes for those services where as my health care costs came out pre-tax.

I can't imagine 35-40% of the US population feels they have a "cadillac" health coverage plan.

[Nerfgun]

America does have the best health care in the world

You know, I don't think you can really say this anymore. Not even with an unlimited budget is this really true.

Undoubtedly there is some very advanced shit in the US, but it is hardly unmatched elsewhere in the first world. And obviously this quibbles with the word "best". But, in my experience working on a large University medical project myself for the last year, I have never seen anything - procedure, machinery, expertise, anything - that was undoubtedly unique to the US, in terms of advanced medicine. Hell it's probably Saudi Arabia for the really sci fi stuff, honestly.

Not trying to troll but I so often hear this initial disclaimer bandied about axiomatically, and I can't see any truth in it, at this point.

[Something Wicked]

When I first read about the Cadillac tax I thought, yeah that makes sense. Then you find out by 2019 they expect it to affect somewhere between 35 and 40% of Americans. What the fuck? I don't see a whole lot of employers doing anything but cutting benefits and explaining to employees that the government forced them to do it with the new tax. In this market, they aren't going to turn around and up people's salaries. Even if they did, it'd still be a net loss for me because I'm going to turn around and pay taxes for those services where as my health care costs came out pre-tax. I can't imagine 35-40% of the US population feels they have a "cadillac" health coverage plan.

Obamacare isn't socialism- it's merely forced altruism. A socialist policy should benefit more people than it hurts. Obamacare helps 10-15% of the US population, while negatively impacting the remaining 85-90%.

[TheSeks]

Interesting article... But honestly, Americans are also confused as to why Americans are against universal healthcare.

Yeah. I think most of America outside of private health insurance companies want public healthcare.

[daycru]

I can't even begin to imagine how much we spend because of people who wait too long before going to the hospital because they're scared about their insurance. Preventative care is the best care.

I've got a 26 year old corpse of a friend who's exhibit A. USA! USA! USA!

[Chumly]

Obamacare isn't socialism- it's merely forced altruism. A socialist policy should benefit more people than it hurts. Obamacare helps 10-15% of the US population, while negatively impacting the remaining 85-90%.

How does it negatively impact 90% of us?

[The Technomancer]

A friend of mine is from Luxembourg, and when he was headed back home for the holidays one year I jokingly was like "yeah, run back to socialist Europe" and he laughed out loud and was genuinely confused, saying something like "what, like, under the Russians?". I tried to explain about our current perceptions about how basic social policy is viewed as "socialism"

[Dead Man]

Yeah. I think most of America outside of private health insurance companies want public healthcare.

There is a very loud minority that are dead set against it. That's all it takes.

[Like the hat?]

Because business owners don't want to pay for it, and many of the big business owners have political connections, so politicians say its a bad thing, and gullible commoners believe it because this country is so stuck on a silly republican vs democrat, us vs them mentality that they would cut off their nose to spite their face.

[RDreamer]

Yeah. I think most of America outside of private health insurance companies want public healthcare.

Most probably don't want it, but most would want it if it were explained to them without the shitty propaganda and rhetoric spewed by idiots like Fox News and politicians like Rick Santorum, etc. It's just like a ton of people don't approve of Obamacare, yet most approve of the specific provisions in Obamacare if you separate it out.

[Something Wicked]

How does it negatively impact 90% of us?

Increased future taxes and insurance premiums, while receiving virtually nothing in return.

[Utako]

One factor people don't consider is that private healthcare allows for heavy coverage of very expensive drugs.

1) Expensive drugs makes Big Pharma rich.

2) A rich Big Pharma means heavy R&D.

3) Heavy R&D means the USA produces the most cutting-edge drugs in the world.


I am all for a public option, and would gladly pay the meager tax increase to put the problems with our system to bed, but there are gaps in the solutions too.

It's sad that we're not arguing to the same degree over the US education system, which affects the wellbeing of the country far more deeply.

[TheExodu5]

because we already have the GREATEST HEALTCHARE IN THE WORLD

Incredible. :lol

[Azih]

I've got a 26 year old corpse of a friend who's exhibit A. USA! USA! USA!

Wow. That sucks.

And don't pharma companies make a whole lot of money elsewhere in the world as well? Is there backup for the argument that their insane profits off the back of the American sick the source of most of the world's R&D?

I mean maybe they should pull back on their incessant advertising and use some of that budget for R&D work instead of charging insane prices in the US.

[Gustav]

because we already have the GREATEST HEALTCHARE IN THE WORLD

I'm in tears.

[Chumly]

Increased future taxes and insurance premiums, while receiving virtually nothing in return.

How does it raise premiums for group coverage?

[Dax01]

Exactly. Obamacare actually makes it HARDER to get universal healthcare because the companies that lobby against universal healthcare are the ones making more money off of Obamacare.

Not really. Insurance companies don't like the bill – otherwise they wouldn't be working so hard to repeal it – and Obamacare LIMITS the money they can make.

[Fancy Corndog]

I think the misconception is that the U.S. is a "religious" nation. That's largely a pretentious thing here. If 90% of the country is Christian, 25% of them go to church (largely for social reasons), and 95% of them have never read the Bible.

American religion is very convenient.


Having said that, I have no problem with the Supreme Court looking over this. If they decide it's illegal, then Obama just needs to find a legal way to do it.

[D4Danger]

One factor people don't consider is that private healthcare allows for heavy coverage of very expensive drugs. 1) Expensive drugs makes Big Pharma rich. 2) A rich Big Pharma means heavy R&D. 3) Heavy R&D means the USA produces the most cutting-edge drugs in the world.

If the drugs are expensive then the only people who can have them are the rich, yes?

so the situation you've outlined above is an impossible cycle for anyone who can't afford to buy into it.

I can't tell if your post is sarcasm or not. I hope it is.

[Dali]

Interesting article... But honestly, Americans are also confused as to why Americans are against universal healthcare.

Yeah some days I'm not sure whether its conservative brainwashing of poor rednecks or the subtle racism from the opposition that automatically makes anything from the Obama administration a bad idea.

[FyreWulff]

Yeah some days I'm not sure whether its conservative brainwashing of poor rednecks or the subtle racism from the opposition that automatically makes anything from the Obama administration a bad idea.

BOOTSTRAPS. Their great-grandpappy settled the land on his own!

.. after Congress incentivized the mass settlement of the land.

[Tideas]

If the drugs are expensive then the only people who can have them are the rich, yes? so the situation you've outlined above is an impossible cycle for anyone who can't afford to buy into it. I can't tell if your post is sarcasm or not. I hope it is.

what? Drugs are expensive yes. But after 10 years, they lose the patents, and all drugs become cheap.

Look at the common cold medicine.

I really don't understand why people are so against big pharma making a lot of money. It's not like they blow that money on airship carriers. Most of it goes BACK into R&D to create new drugs.

Hell, thanks to these pharma, malaria and all that shit is almost wiped from 3rd world

[FyreWulff]

what? Drugs are expensive yes. But after 10 years, they lose the patents, and all drugs become cheap. Look at the common cold medicine. I really don't understand why people are so against big pharma making a lot of money. It's not like they blow that money on airship carriers. Most of it goes BACK into R&D to create new drugs. Hell, thanks to these pharma, malaria and all that shit is almost wiped from 3rd world

The vast majority of their R&D is DIRECTLY funded by taxpayers.

[Dali]

I think the misconception is that the U.S. is a "religious" nation. That's largely a pretentious thing here. If 90% of the country is Christian, 25% of them go to church (largely for social reasons), and 95% of them have never read the Bible. American religion is very convenient. Having said that, I have no problem with the Supreme Court looking over this. If they decide it's illegal, then Obama just needs to find a legal way to do it.

The US is a religious nation when pandering to that demographic is a necessity to be a legitimate candidate, when God is written into contracts, when God and religion are cited as reasons blocking legislation for women's and gay rights...

[Dax01]

what? Drugs are expensive yes. But after 10 years, they lose the patents, and all drugs become cheap. Look at the common cold medicine. I really don't understand why people are so against big pharma making a lot of money. It's not like they blow that money on airship carriers. Most of it goes BACK into R&D to create new drugs. Hell, thanks to these pharma, malaria and all that shit is almost wiped from 3rd world

So sucks for people who need to use them within those ten years?

[PdotMichael]

The vast majority of their R&D is DIRECTLY funded by taxpayers.

And you think without the ineffency system of the USA there would be no R&D for new drugs?



This is just insane

[snap0212]

I'll stick with the USA- more cash for video games and less wait times at the clinic.

I never had to wait for anything at a clinic, and I've only ever been there for minor things where they could have let me wait. Can't complain at all.

Question to US folks: How long does your employer have to pay you when you get sick? Say you have to be in the hospital for a month, will you still get money from the person you work for? I tried to google this but I didn't really find anything.

[Something Wicked]

The vast majority of their R&D is DIRECTLY funded by taxpayers.

Not in the US, buddy. You might be confused with solar panel tech.

So sucks for people who need to use them within those ten years?

It also sucks for those on UHC programs, whose governments will not pay for newest, cutting edge drugs. Cancer survival rates are higher in the US than all (or at least nearly) other countries for a reason. UHC is great for minor surgeries or basic drug prescriptions, but for the serious diseases or highly complex surgeries, governments have shown to be much less willing to pay for such things than even private insurance.

[SouthernDragon]

I never had to wait for anything at a clinic, and I've only ever been there for minor things where they could have let me wait. Can't complain at all. Question to US folks: How long does your employer have to pay you when you get sick? Say you have to be in the hospital for a month, will you still get money from the person you work for? I tried to google this but I didn't really find anything.

For as many vacation days or sicks days you got. After that, fuck you, and good luck! :)

[CHEEZMO™]

I think the misconception is that the U.S. is a "religious" nation. That's largely a pretentious thing here. If 90% of the country is Christian, 25% of them go to church (largely for social reasons), and 95% of them have never read the Bible. American religion is very convenient.

Reminded me of this



lol

[FyreWulff]

Not in the US, buddy. You might be confused with solar panel tech.

Oh, you're one of those people. Bzzt. Nope.

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/feb...ayers-20110210

And these weren’t just run-of-the-mill drugs – they were important ones. For instance, 46% of the drugs developed by PSRIs got priority reviews from the FDA (an indication that they offered a substantial improvement over existing treatments), compared with 20% of the drugs from the private sector.

In addition, the researchers wrote, “Virtually all the important, innovative vaccines that have been introduced during the past 25 years have been created by PSRIs.” Public research institutions were also particularly good at identifying new uses for existing drugs. From 1990 to 2007, the FDA approved only 10 such requests; nine of them originated in PSRIs, according to the study. Overall, the team concluded, “PSRIs tend to discover drugs that are expected to have a disproportionately important clinical effect.”

[CrankyJay]

I can't even begin to imagine how much we spend because of people who wait too long before going to the hospital because they're scared about their insurance. Preventative care is the best care.

Well, this isn't the only reason people wait too long...some just don't like the doctor or are afraid of what they're going to hear.

My father in law hasn't been to the doctor in 20 years, and has more than adequate health care. Not sure what his problem is.

[Kinyou]

I think the misconception is that the U.S. is a "religious" nation. That's largely a pretentious thing here. If 90% of the country is Christian, 25% of them go to church (largely for social reasons), and 95% of them have never read the Bible. American religion is very convenient.

Then federal officials should really stop taking their oaths with a hand on the bible and ending it with "so help me God." Because that makes me think of a very christian state.

[Gustav]

Then federal officials should really stop taking their oaths with a hand on the bible and ending it with "so help me God." Because that makes me think of a very christian state.

Also, if more than half of US Americans in polls state that they wouldn't vote for an atheist president, it surely feels like a religious country.

[planar1280]

the issue is many Americans especially conservatives think government should do least and private entities should do most. This is opposite to what most others think. The more confusing part is. When the economy is down they vote out the government but kick out the private entities.