[Dax01]

It also sucks for those on UHC programs, whose governments will not pay for newest, cutting edge drugs. Cancer survival rates are higher in the US than all (or at least nearly) other countries for a reason. UHC is great for minor surgeries or basic drug prescriptions, but for the serious diseases or highly complex surgeries, governments have shown to be much less willing to pay for such things than even private insurance.

On occasion yes if the drug is too expensive (then who does it help?) but overall governments bring down the price of prescription drugs by negotiating their price, benefiting everyone. The rest of your post is you talking nonsense (as usual).

[Sir Garbageman]

I don't understand why everyone in my country is so stupid either.

.

[Something Wicked]

Oh, you're one of those people. Bzzt. Nope. http://articles.latimes.com/2011/feb...ayers-20110210

So, out of the 10,000s of drugs the FDA has approved over the last 40 years, the article is saying 153 of them were developed by university groups with government grant money?

That's your "vast majority" of drug R&D funds?...

[genjiZERO]

Maybe this is a side thing, but the PPACA is not universal healthcare, it's universal coverage. It's simply an insurance bill. Universal insurance still doesn't guarantee coverage, nor that healthcare will become affordable.

[Angry Fork]

I wonder where are gaf's vigilant conservatives to defend their opinions.



Maybe Kosmo can clear up everyone's confusion.

[FyreWulff]

So, out of the 10,000s of drugs the FDA has approved over the last 40 years, the article is saying 153 of them were developed by university groups with government grant money? That's your "vast majority" of drug R&D funds?...

You're just being intentionally obtuse, but whatever, I'm bored today.

http://www.citizen.org/publications/...ct.cfm?ID=7065

choice bit from that:

Moreover, the Fortune 500 drug companies dedicated 30 percent of their revenues to marketing and administration in the year 2000, and just 12 percent to R&D. (See Section X)

http://blogcritics.org/culture/artic...drug-research/

choice bit:

3. The US taxpayer pays for 34% of that remainder through a tax deduction drug companies take on R & D. I think encouraging R & D this way is good policy, but it does reduce the cost of bringing the drug to market by $81 million that's paid for by you and other taxpayers, not the drug companies.

[cvxfreak]

One of the nice benefits of living in Japan for me versus the States.

My mom keeps reminding me that my dad's insurance expires when I turn 26... not a problem at all!

[Tacitus_]

Reminded me of this lol

... what point are they trying to make there? Jesus said both of those.

[CHEEZMO™]

... what point are they trying to make there? Jesus said both of those.

Not Supply Side Jesus, though.

[Inanna]

Yeah, those extra taxes and costs of living would exceed my annual private healthcare costs. I'll stick with the USA- more cash for video games and less wait times at the clinic.

Huh? I can call up my GP early in the morning and get an appointment an appointment the very same day!

[dem]

Id imagine its the same thinking that has these middleclass people fighting against tax increases for the wealthy. When they get rich they don't want to pay that much tax!!


When I get rich I don't want to have to wait for my surgery! I want to be able to pay for the best of the best of the best!


Meanwhile they're getting fucked up the ass. American dream, baby!

[CHEEZMO™]

Id imagine its the same thinking that has these middleclass people fighting against tax increases for the wealthy. When they get rich they don't want to pay that much tax!! When I get rich I don't want to have to wait for my surgery! I want the best of the best of the best!! Meanwhile they're getting fucked up the ass. American dream, baby!

"Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires."

[Tacitus_]

Not Supply Side Jesus, though.

Right. I suppose these people and the ones calling social welfare communism are the one and the same.

[Zizbuka]

The US govt serves big corporations, the wealthy and insurance providers. None of those want it.

[jufonuk]

Wait, the soldier carries around rocks for no reason?

lol... i am cracking up here.

[Something Wicked]

You're just being intentionally obtuse, but whatever, I'm bored today. http://blogcritics.org/culture/artic...drug-research/

Ah, yeah, you really did some top-notch research there with a blog post from 2004 referring to a study in 2001. Even using your statistic from a single 11-year old study, a third isn't a "vast majority" either.

Anyway, many industries get tax deductions, including video game companies. Also, I think pharmaceutical companies should get priority over other industries for such deductions, since life-saving/improving drugs are more important than most other products other companies develop.

Huh? I can call up my GP early in the morning and get an appointment an appointment the very same day!

...Yeah, well... I can cut the phone line... and guess whose not getting an appointment that day?!

[jufonuk]

My brother recently moved to America from the UK, he is finding healthcare an issue, he has been really sick a number of times and wont go to the docs for fear of the costs..

he is on low income and finding it hard to get medical insurance paid for.

I can't fathom what it must be like to have to make those choices with your health due to it costing too much.

[reggieandTFE]

You're just being intentionally obtuse, but whatever, I'm bored today. http://www.citizen.org/publications/...ct.cfm?ID=7065 choice bit from that: http://blogcritics.org/culture/artic...drug-research/ choice bit:

It's really not worth arguing with him.

[zero_suit]

My brother recently moved to America from the UK, he is finding healthcare an issue, he has been really sick a number of times and wont go to the docs for fear of the costs.. he is on low income and finding it hard to get medical insurance paid for. I can't fathom what it must be like to have to make those choices with your health due to it costing too much.

Why?

[FyreWulff]

It's really not worth arguing with him.

Yeah, it's not worth acknowledging him anymore. I tried, but some people have just made up their mind.

[ToxicAdam]

I think fearmongering on health care is super effective in America. So, you can say just about anything and people will believe it.

Why is that? Because many people have seen what has become of Medicare. A program that when it was introduced, was promised to have costs that fell in line with inflation but soon escalated way past that and now is one of the biggest costs to the taxpayer.

So, people take that history and try to extrapolate it to Universal Health Care and project what the future may hold for them and America. Which to them, would likely would mean more taxes across the board to help fund it or draconian, cold decisions by faceless people to improve cost-efficiency.

[AgentP]

I'm American and also confused.

Same. But we are a bunch of obese ignorant Bible thumping morons who are led around like sheep by TV talking heads.

[The Technomancer]

I think fearmongering on health care is super effective in America. So, you can say just about anything and people will believe it. Why is that? Because many people have seen what has become of Medicare. A program that when it was introduced, was promised to have costs that fell in line with inflation but soon escalated way past that and now is one of the biggest costs to the taxpayer. So, people take that history and try to extrapolate it to Universal Health Care and project what the future may hold for them and America. Which to them, would likely would mean more taxes across the board to help fund it or draconian, cold decisions by faceless people to improve cost-efficiency.

The hilarious part is that they somehow think the private sector doesn't operate this way all the time or something.

[snap0212]

For as many vacation days or sicks days you got. After that, fuck you, and good luck! :)

Thanks for the reply. That's pretty nuts since the employer is not forced to give you any vacation days, right?

I'm really not sure how anyone can be in favor of such things.

[empty vessel]

Oh, you're one of those people. Bzzt. Nope. http://articles.latimes.com/2011/feb...ayers-20110210

He will also be surprised to learn (despite not for the first time) that European pharmaceutical companies make up five of the ten largest pharmaceutical companies.

[Daeda]

It also sucks for those on UHC programs, whose governments will not pay for newest, cutting edge drugs. Cancer survival rates are higher in the US than all (or at least nearly) other countries for a reason. UHC is great for minor surgeries or basic drug prescriptions, but for the serious diseases or highly complex surgeries, governments have shown to be much less willing to pay for such things than even private insurance.

That conclusion is too easy to make: http://www.factcheck.org/2009/08/can...d-conclusions/

Furthermore, I would argue that it is fairer to a society as a whole to share a little less cutting edge drugs for everybody than only allowing top notch stuff to the richest of them all. Also, this completely surpasses the fact that profit driven pharmaceuticals can make those drugs that unreachable for everybody due to their profit driven nature. The problem with American Healthcare isn't that its not public, but it's that capitalism has resulted in a culture where the ideal of making money is favoured over the ideal of making people better. I think its typically a market where I want as little capitalism as possible.

Anyway, I think most Americans will find the Dutch Healthcare interesting, for it is quite similar to Obamacare and actually works pretty well. Essentially we have a split between public and private insurance and can all pick a insurance company for either of them. So everybody gets the basics, but some get extra stuff (like better dental etc) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthc...he_Netherlands

As for the cause: Its a consequence of everything followed by the biggest lie in the US culture: the American Dream. People are indoctrinated that they can all become rich if they work hard, and therefore assign some illogical superiority to the people who are rich. Its a smart lie people in power tell other people so they can get away with payrolls 150 times higher, even tough it's virtually impossible to work 150 times harder than other (also hard and often to the fullest of their potential working) individuals.

[Sho_Nuff82]

I'm actually pretty curious to see how this article is received by the fb community.

Does anyone have the counterpoint "Come onnnnnnnnn" gif?

[Something Wicked]

Yeah, it's not worth acknowledging him anymore. I tried, but some people have just made up their mind.

I'm sorry, but you can't just do a 2 second Google search and post one of the first 5 links and expect anyone to be impressed. Just farting out links, especially ones from highly partisan blogs from 8 years ago, isn't a proper way of debating.

If you know your stuff, you should be able to thoroughly describe your positions without any links, graphs, or images. If you can do the above first, I'll then proceed with my own research to verify your points and perhaps (and hopefully) I'll learn a few things.

He will also be surprised to learn (despite not for the first time) that European pharmaceutical companies make up five of the ten largest pharmaceutical companies.

Nope, not surprised there, but a few of those companies, and many other European pharmaceutical companies employ more Americans than citizens of their headquartered countries. That's along with the US having more top 50 pharma companies than the EU combined, and number of the bio-tech start-ups in the US has outpaced Europe as well.

[Phoenician_Viking]

I will never understand anyone who votes against their own interest.

No, would you care to elaborate?

Dave, you mischievous bastard :P

[Qwell]

The issue I have with the current proposal is it does nothing to actually curb the "cost" of health insurance, or health care. Remember, they are 2 different things, the bill that was introduced is simply forcing everyone to buy into a market for service and I don't believe our government has any right to force someone to purchase a good from a private company for simply being alive.

The 2nd issue is we have too many other issues surrounding how our health insurance works that I think need to be fixed. We need to bring the patient into a closer relationship with their provider (doctor AND insurance company). That is probably the biggest problem we have, YOU are NOT the customer of your insurance provider if you have it, your employer is (for most people, not everyone). We need to break the tie between the employer and insurance, I'm all for letting your employer give you a tax exempt amount of money into a Health Savings account, but they shouldn't be allowed to buy you insurance as it ties you to your employer. Because of that people are fearful of changing positions because they might lose coverage, or have worse insurance at a new place etc.

The 3rd issue is that the government is forcing insurance to cover too many additional items that may not be needed by an individual. Because of this forced coverage it drives up the costs because the insurance has to account for those additional items. Like Psychiatric, or chyropractic or maternity etc. Again we should have all kinds of options, if someone wants to have coverage for only catestrophic care in the case they get a broken bone or come down with a cancer etc. let that be an option.

[phosphor112]

i would guess reason people hate on it is because everyone pays for everyone's healthcare... meaning it is 20%-30% of your paycheck here in my country just for the healthcare...

...its already about 10% of my paycheck already for myself WITHOUT me even going to the doctor. Once I go, I have to pay 1000+ dollars for a deductible along with co-pays. Add in Medicare taxes and its easily much higher.

Get surgery or any procedures? Fuck that, you're looking at most of your money going down the drain.

People are stupid to think 20-30% is a lot.

[Yoritomo]

We need single payer. Obamacare isn't going to solve the fundamental problems we have in our healthcare system.

[iamaustrian]

what? Drugs are expensive yes. But after 10 years, they lose the patents, and all drugs become cheap. Hell, thanks to these pharma, malaria and all that shit is almost wiped from 3rd world

Oh boy....it's really news to me that Malaria is almost wiped out in the 3rd world. malaria not only kills millions of ppl each year, there's also no vaccination against it.

And if pharma industry is the second comin of jesus they should support the 3rd world with cheaper hiv meds.

[phosphor112]

We need single payer. Obamacare isn't going to solve the fundamental problems we have in our healthcare system.

What's single payer tax system?

[Yoritomo]

Oh boy....it's really news to me that Malaria is almost wiped out in the 3rd world. malaria not only kills millions of ppl each year, there's also no vaccination against it. And if pharma industry is the second comin of jesus they should support the 3rd world with cheaper hiv meds.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/19/health/19malaria.html

Thank you Bill Gates

What's single payer tax system?

Single Payer Healthcare. IE socialized medicine.

[Izick]

I'm American and also confused.

Yep, same. I think it comes down to the fact that it's more of an...I'm not sure how to phrase it, but like an antiquated idea that some-kind of nationwide healthcare system will lead to socialism, and then to Communism, I guess? Now before you start getting mad at me, I'm not saying I agree with this in any single form or fashion what so ever, I'm just saying that's what some people believe.

[Buzzati]

I'd like to know how Americans feel about pinning the consequences of supply-side private healthcare (poor non-coverage, extremely expensive specialized procedures on sole payers; CAT scans, surgery, etc.) while the rest of the world reaps all of the benefits and no negatives from American pharmaceutical innovation granted by the system.

[bro1]

All I know is that with the best insurance my company offers, I pay $15K per year which includes my monthly premiums. This is for a family of 3 mind you! My monthly premiums are $560 plus I have a co-insurance that covers 80% of my medical costs. The drug that I take apperently costs $10K per month and I have to cover 20% or up to $15K per year.

[ThisWreckage]

People get what they pay for. It might cost an arm and a leg to live in another country, but at least they're paying with a figurative limb instead of a literal one in some cases.

[malfcn]

The only problem I foresee with the US having a nearly free-ride system like Canada, is all the dumb fucks that would purposely get hurt just to screw with the system and get free pills and high.

That is what the US is all about. Screwing each system, and trying to sue everybody.
Unemployment system? Fuck trying to work. Collect and get high.
Assisted housing? Fuck trying to make too much money, and keep the swank house.
Emergency Funds? Fuck buying what they need, get that new big TV.
Try to lift you up? Fuck that, try to stay down so the lifting never stops.

I support uni-care for the most part. Should the constitution support it? Nah.
The people should support it, and stop fucking each other over into oblivion.

[Heshinsi]

I wish Germany would try their hand at world domination once more. Germans and Canadians believe universal healthcare is a no-brainer. It's an awesome way of thinking. You ask a conservative American about it, and they start talking about, "Who's gonna pay for it?" or "Why are you forcing other people to pay for you?" Marine invasions.

Germans, Canadians, and every other industrial nation in the world.

[Darkmakaimura]

I don't think Americans, at least not the average "nine-to-fivers" are truly against universal health care, they're just leery about the way it may be implemented.

[Az]

I always stay away from the Universal Healthcare debate thinking I was missing something or just not educated enough on the subject. Having people against it is really confusing to me.

[ToxicAdam]

I'd like to know how Americans feel about pinning the consequences of supply-side private healthcare (poor non-coverage, extremely expensive specialized procedures on sole payers; CAT scans, surgery, etc.) while the rest of the world reaps all of the benefits and no negatives from American pharmaceutical innovation granted by the system.

Probably the same way we feel about footing the bill for a global military force.

We try not to think about it or ignore it.

[berg ark]

What else confuses Germans?

Why atheists and the homosexual population are discriminated.

[Binabik15]

Why atheists and the homosexual population are discriminated.

Nah, as a country/government we're down with forcing the gays to be seperate but (not so) equal with our eingetragene Lebengemeinschaften instead of real gay marriage. Want to have fully the same rights as good god fearing straight people? Hah! Not as long as one of our two big parties (CDU) has "Christian" in its name and its Bavarian off-shoot CSU has such a big sway.

Same party is happily trying to dismantle our healthcare system by "reforming" it. Our system is, by the way, totally different from the single payer systems most people think of when comparing the US to "good" healthcare countries.

We have a lot on our plate before we can get back on track to world domination, guys, sorry.

[RPG_Fanatic]

And you think without the ineffency system of the USA there would be no R&D for new drugs? This is just insane

Why does Germany's health care cost rise disappear between 1990 and 1992?

[nib95]

I think most of the developed world are too.

[Zefah]

I'm an American and I'm confused, too.

Well, I know the reason. It's mostly a bunch of people being fooled by the super rich to vote against their own interests.

[Daeda]

Why does Germany's health care cost rise disappear between 1990 and 1992?

Most likely because East and West Germany merged in 1990 and the transition period made accurate statistics impossible.