[JokerOfSpades]

women want to see characters that amount to more than just sexualization

So what's the problem with sexualization if the women also have character.

[Satch]

Uh huh, that's why there were hooting and hollering at Hulk when he took off his shirt. :P

meh ruffalo was w/e

So what's the problem with sexualization if the women also have character.

well they typically dont and thats a part of the issue

we wouldnt even be talking about this if, in the grand scheme of things, the women were sexy and were well-developed (not talking about their breasts or behind, here)

[G-Fex]

No i mean hulk not banner.

*facepalms* joke failed.

[SnakeswithLasers]

I'm wondering, though. Who decides which direction to go in, and why? Feminism is about equality among the sexes, so of course with some things it's "if men have this, or men don't have this, women should also have this, or not have this." So the question is... who decides that we should have less sexualization of female characters as opposed to more sexualization of male characters?

I don't think you are as knowledgeable about the struggle for equality as you think you are. Go read a book that doesn't have the word "comic" preceding as a qualifier.

[The Anti-Monitor]

So what's the problem with sexualization if the women also have character.

And there's the problem. Let me tell you about why I like She-Hulk and Harley Quinn.

She-Hulk is a very sexual character. From the obvious dimorphism with Hulk to her famous sexcapades. However, she is also insanely fun to read, charismatic, independent but still rather femenine.

Harl is outright fetish material that all but pushed me into bicuriosity. But she is also fun, quirky, and unique. Note I'm not talking about SS Harley.

I don't care about female characters being sexy, and looking good. I have a problem when most female heroes can only be separated due to powerset, not personality, when their gender is literally the only character trait they have, and when their only purpose is to look pretty before a real hero swoops down and saves the day. Especially when for so many writers the alternative is an equally useless STRONG WOMAN who must remind you continuously how masculine she is.

[Oblivion]

Power Girl has a LOT of character, if you know what I mean. Heh heh heh.

*wipes tear*

Good times.

[G-Fex]

I never ever want to speak out on gender issues.

I can't.

I just better stay from those threads all together.

[Satch]

Power Girl has a LOT of character, if you know what I mean. Heh heh heh. *wipes tear* Good times.

you're joking but PG is (was) genuinely a good character

[The Anti-Monitor]

Power Girl has a LOT of character, if you know what I mean. Heh heh heh. *wipes tear* Good times.

Had.

That's another incredibly sexual character but a very good one.

[Parallax]

I don't care about female characters being sexy, and looking good. I have a problem when most female heroes can only be separated due to powerset, not personality, when their gender is literally the only character trait they have, and when their only purpose is to look pretty before a real hero swoops down and saves the day. Especially when for so many writers the alternative is an equally useless STRONG WOMAN who must remind you continuously how masculine she is.

I can attest to this. Its one of the reasons that I hate storm and panther together, and why I hated her inclusion in his solo arc. He's getting his ass kicked, and instead of him pulling himself out, she swoops down to save him. It was unneeded and pulled you away from the desperation of the scene. Women are able to hold their own in comics now,(songbird being my major favorite) and although I can't think of any examples, I won't deny that it still happens.

[crimsonspider89]

I don't want a character who is beauty and no personality.

But I also hate it when the females lose all sexuality portrayed(reasons why I hate the new PG/Carol designs)

Let us look at PG/She Hulk. Both are highly sexualized but show humor, independence and are depicted as extremely strong women who go toe to toe with the male stars.

I think that is what is needed.

Like Ms. marvel's new costume would be perfect if she had the long hair.

The new Power Girl's costume would be bearable if it had the signature cleavage window.

Oh another thing that annoys me is when female characters are designed to be more independent and less pin up the random chest deflation.

These issues set back the feminist movement. Some independent and strong women want to look pretty and hot at time.

[Satch]

I don't want a character who is beauty and no personality. But I also hate it when the females lose all sexuality portrayed(reasons why I hate the new PG/Carol designs) Let us look at PG/She Hulk. Both are highly sexualized but show humor, independence and are depicted as extremely strong women who go toe to toe with the male stars. I think that is what is needed. Like Ms. marvel's new costume would be perfect if she had the long hair. The new Power Girl's costume would be bearable if it had the signature cleavage window. Oh another thing that annoys me is when female characters are designed to be more independent and less pin up the random chest deflation. These issues set back the feminist movement. Some independent and strong women want to look pretty and hot at time.

how is making female characters more independent and less pinup setting back the feminist movement

[Oblivion]

Wow, saw both Ms. Marvel and PG's new costumes. Marvel's doesn't look to bad, but WTF happened to her hair? And for PG they covered EVERYTHING, including her legs. :/

[JokerOfSpades]

I don't think you are as knowledgeable about the struggle for equality as you think you are. Go read a book that doesn't have the word "comic" preceding as a qualifier.

...It was a question.

And there's the problem. Let me tell you about why I like She-Hulk and Harley Quinn. She-Hulk is a very sexual character. From the obvious dimorphism with Hulk to her famous sexcapades. However, she is also insanely fun to read, charismatic, independent but still rather femenine. Harl is outright fetish material that all but pushed me into bicuriosity. But she is also fun, quirky, and unique. Note I'm not talking about SS Harley. I don't care about female characters being sexy, and looking good. I have a problem when most female heroes can only be separated due to powerset, not personality, when their gender is literally the only character trait they have, and when their only purpose is to look pretty before a real hero swoops down and saves the day. Especially when for so many writers the alternative is an equally useless STRONG WOMAN who must remind you continuously how masculine she is.

No, I can understand that. I actually just realized that I can't differentiate many female characters except by what powers they have.

At any rate, if more female characters were written with... well, their character in mind, wouldn't it be fine?

you're joking but PG is (was) genuinely a good character

I actually had no idea about this - I've really only seen her most cringeworthy moments. How was she a good character?

[JokerOfSpades]

Wow, saw both Ms. Marvel and PG's new costumes. Marvel's doesn't look to bad, but WTF happened to her hair? And for PG they covered EVERYTHING, including her legs. :/

Links?

[ElectricBlue187]

Alright. My instincts are telling me not to engage you here because I may be being trolled, hard. But if you're legitimately making this ludicrous claim, I think the burden of proof should be on you. Please give 10 examples from the last 2 years of entries in popular media that match the description you've given here. This should be very simple as you claim that the vast majority are this way and only outliers are not, and there have been hundreds. By the way, I don't think it's impossible to find 10 legitimately good depictions of female characters in pop culture in the pas two years; I am attempting to see what you think fits your description. Try to pick some across different forms of media and please do include some video games. Knowing nothing about your choices, I would bet that about half of them could have some argument made for them being legit, at least, two or three will superficially meet your description while in effect being overtly sexist, and at least one will be essentially bullshit.

Hard to understand how you think it wont be difficult if you disagree with me but ok, I'll bite. I'll just post stuff from what I've watched/played recently...

Ashley Williams - Mass Effect 3
Arya Stark - Game of Thrones
Ramona Flowers - Scott Pilgrim vs. The World
Skylar White - Breaking Bad
Bonnie MacFarlane - Red Dead Redemption
Ree Dolly - Winter's Bone
Veronica Santangelo - Fallout: New Vegas
Peggy Olsen - Mad Men
Sarah Linden - The Killing
Mattie Ross - True Grit

Tried to pick media that's strongly character driven and memorable to me. Do keep in mind that character flaws != sexism. Anyway I look forward to hearing how my choices here are either sexist and/or bullshit!

[Femmeworth]

To this

This actually interests me.. a lot. Okay, not actually that much, but it's nice to see a woman character that doesn't have the typical figure.

[XiaNaphryz]

Ashley Williams - Mass Effect 3

I found this amusing only because I recently heard a girl complain that they "slutted up" Ashley in ME3 when she first shows up in the opening cutscenes. I didn't see how letting her hair down made that big of a difference.

[The Anti-Monitor]

Oh another thing that annoys me is when female characters are designed to be more independent and less pin up the random chest deflation. These issues set back the feminist movement. Some independent and strong women want to look pretty and hot at time.

No, what we need is precisely indepent heroes defined by more than their looks.

Wow, saw both Ms. Marvel and PG's new costumes. Marvel's doesn't look to bad, but WTF happened to her hair? And for PG they covered EVERYTHING, including her legs. :/

This, this is the problem right here. Thor gets armor? Badass. Ms. Marvel loses the generic hair every damn heroine has? OMG WHYYY

...It was a question. No, I can understand that. I actually just realized that I can't differentiate many female characters except by what powers they have. At any rate, if more female characters were written with... well, their character in mind, wouldn't it be fine? I actually had no idea about this - I've really only seen her most cringeworthy moments. How was she a good character?

I'd love that, but as long as they are designed with their gender as the priority, that won't happen.

And PG was fun, self-aware, smart, independent, tongue in cheek, and even worked as a parody.

[crimsonspider89]

Because it sends the message that women with curves and large bust cannot be independent women. It denotes that women to be serious and independent have to cover up and never allow themselves the time to pretty up.

I am fine with cutting down on the characters who are nothing more than sex. But REDUCING a female's breast size for no apparent reason as a way to make her seem more independent sends the wrong message.

EDIT: And them covering up completely HURTS the movement. Sends the message that women CANNOT show curves and cannot be taken seriously if they have big bust size. Also, the costumes for PG and Carol need touch ups. They are hideous. Someone did a shop job and Carol having the long hair back made the outfit look ten times as good. This is a visual medium. If something does not appeal to your eyes, people are not going to buy it.

[Satch]

I actually had no idea about this - I've really only seen her most cringeworthy moments. How was she a good character?

man you need to look up the Palmiotti/Grey/Conner Power Girl run

she was smart, funny, strong, and ran her own multi-million dollar corporation. the book itself was really fun and self-aware without being too self-deprecating. conner absolutely killed it on the art

get dat shit

[Parallax]

This, this is the problem right here. Thor gets armor? Badass. Ms. Marvel loses the generic hair every damn heroine has? OMG WHYYY

Her fauxhawk haircut does look like shit though.

[JokerOfSpades]

man you need to look up the Palmiotti/Grey/Conner Power Girl run she was smart, funny, strong, and ran her own multi-million dollar corporation. the book itself was really fun and self-aware without being too self-deprecating. conner absolutely killed it on the art get dat shit

Can I get it digitally?

[Peru]

Because it sends the message that women with curves and large bust cannot be independent women. It denotes that women to be serious and independent have to cover up and never allow themselves the time to pretty up. I am fine with cutting down on the characters who are nothing more than sex. But REDUCING a female's breast size for no apparent reason as a way to make her seem more independent sends the wrong message.

THat's ridiculous. I agree that a woman can be independent and strong while still wearing no clothes and having big breasts, but you're criticizing variety! Of course there should be female characters who are not sexualized at all, there are more of them in the real world - why shouldn't these strong characters be represented? You're saying you have to pull your tits out to be a strong character? Listen to yourself. Superheroines are for the most part comical.

[Satch]

Can I get it digitally?

fuck yeah http://www.comixology.com/Power-Girl/comics-series/2791

[The Anti-Monitor]

Her fauxhawk haircut does look like shit though.

Oh, yeah, I agree. I thought about mentioning the change in PG's costume (how does she dare to show less skin) but I really hate that Marvel seems to think there's only one hairstyle for female heroes.

[JokerOfSpades]

fuck yeah http://www.comixology.com/Power-Girl/comics-series/2791

Nice, I'll get on that when I get some money

[crimsonspider89]

I did not say that.

In order to make PG more serious, they reduced her bust size in the reboot and removed all traces of what made PG a good female character.

I mean, list of female characters I love: Rogue, Wanda, Cassandra, Brown, Babs, Supergirl, She Hulk, Power Girl, Jubilee(90s kid), Kitty, Songbird, Hazmat, X-23.

A large portion of those are not sexualized at all.

EDIT: No Power Girl's costume looks like ass and looks nothing like PG's traditional costume. And a large portion of it is the shitty logo.

[Parallax]

Oh, yeah, I agree. I thought about mentioning the change in PG's costume (how does she dare to show less skin) but I really hate that Marvel seems to think there's only one hairstyle for female heroes.

Songbird went from flowing hair to a shortchop a good while ago. it happens, but its just that certain hairstyles remain common for both men and women in comics.

[Femmeworth]

I did not say that. In order to make PG more serious, they reduced her bust size in the reboot and removed all traces of what made PG a good female character. I mean, list of female characters I love: Rogue, Wanda, Cassandra, Brown, Babs, Supergirl, She Hulk, Power Girl, Jubilee(90s kid), Kitty, Songbird, Hazmat, X-23. A large portion of those are not sexualized at all.

What. So looks make a character good?

Also I can guarantee you that all of those characters were sexualized at one point or another. Not to say that sexualization is always bad.

[Satch]

PG being a good character had less to do with the size of her boobies and much much more to do with the fact that she was just a damn a good character

[crimsonspider89]

Nononono. They REDUCED her bust size to make her more independent and serious. Let us repeat this: They REDUCED her bust size to make her appear more independent and serious.

[SapientWolf]

Nononono. They REDUCED her bust size to make her more independent and serious. Let us repeat this: They REDUCED her bust size to make her appear more independent and serious.

To be fair, so did Janeane Garofalo.

[Parallax]

PG being a good character had less to do with the size of her boobies and much much more to do with the fact that she was just a damn a good character

If there's one thing I can say about the reboot, is that outside a handful of costumes(red hood, supes) the rest are COMPLETE SHIT

[HK-47]

I found this amusing only because I recently heard a girl complain that they "slutted up" Ashley in ME3 when she first shows up in the opening cutscenes. I didn't see how letting her hair down made that big of a difference.

Oh I dunno, the breast size increase, the stupid V in her suit that goes down to her cleavage, the loss of her simple, sensible look befitting a soldier. Her shitty characterization, though that was more bad writing.

[lame space]

sexism or capitalism

scarlet should shut up because the same objectification is the reason she even has a job sex sells and goddamn dat girl fine haha

[HK-47]

Because it sends the message that women with curves and large bust cannot be independent women. It denotes that women to be serious and independent have to cover up and never allow themselves the time to pretty up. I am fine with cutting down on the characters who are nothing more than sex. But REDUCING a female's breast size for no apparent reason as a way to make her seem more independent sends the wrong message. EDIT: And them covering up completely HURTS the movement. Sends the message that women CANNOT show curves and cannot be taken seriously if they have big bust size. Also, the costumes for PG and Carol need touch ups. They are hideous. Someone did a shop job and Carol having the long hair back made the outfit look ten times as good. This is a visual medium. If something does not appeal to your eyes, people are not going to buy it.

So basically backlash to a similar phenomenon to "real girls dont wear dresses." Frankly, I cant feel that bad when such tropes are still ingrained into the medium. Like increasing sexual characteristics in a bid for more popularity and fans. Which I'm sure happens far more. Sex sells.

[Oblivion]

Links?

http://www.comicsalliance.com/2012/0...a-new-costume/

[JokerOfSpades]

http://www.comicsalliance.com/2012/0...a-new-costume/

:/

Where's the mask?

[Femmeworth]

Long hair in a combat situation is a liability, shorter hair is much more realistic. The women superheroes with long hair should at least put their hair up. :\

[Dram]

[The Anti-Monitor]

Long hair in a combat situation is a liability, shorter hair is much more realistic.

I do agree that the new costume of Ms. Marvel looks pretty bad, but so did the older ones. Power Girl's is nowhere near as bad though.

[JokerOfSpades]

So what's the problem with sexualization if the women also have character.

I just noticed that this is the worst use of the English language ever.

Long hair in a combat situation is a liability, shorter hair is much more realistic.

That's true. Which yields another question - ladies, if you got superpowers, would you cut your hair?

[crimsonspider89]

Capes are liabilities as well. I was talking quick fixes to the costume. The main issue is the hair cut in question looks horrible with the current costume design.

[ThisWreckage]

She's right, but I take offense to her shitty acting. So her character might have been well written, but her acting destroyed it.

[maxxpower]

Long hair in a combat situation is a liability, shorter hair is much more realistic. The women superheroes with long hair should at least put their hair up. :\

Thor doesn't have his hair up, and neither would I if I had long hair.

[Nesotenso]

Ms. Marvel didn't shorten hair. When she is in costumed it is pinned in a faux mohawk style to fit a Kree styled helmet.

The Dodsons had the best depiction of the new look so far.

[Femmeworth]

That's true. Which yields another question - ladies, if you got superpowers, would you cut your hair?

Yes. Though updos are an option too, depending on the length.

Thor doesn't have his hair up, and neither would I if I had long hair.

Thor would have his hair torn out so quickly. Well, I'm talking about long hair Thor.

[The Anti-Monitor]

That's true. Which yields another question - ladies, if you got superpowers, would you cut your hair?

I change my hair every couple of months so...

Thor doesn't have his hair up, and neither would I if I had long hair.

Does Thor have the same hair as Ms. Marvel (previously), Storm, Spider-Woman, etc?

Thor's hair is not a lot longer than Power Girl's. At least currently.

[brianmcdoogle]

I'm a little shocked that there are so few pictures of Johanson in this thread.