[Durante]

Wow, I'm shocked at their being such a large portion of GAF who don't want this.

I'm not. The amount of subtle (and not-so-subtle) lobbying against high-end gaming over the past years has been staggering, particularly on this forum. Unsurprisingly, it started when Nintendo released the Wii. I can't recall gamers on message boards worrying incessantly about development costs before that.

I wonder how different this thread would be had that never happened.

[snoopeasystreet]

Sony and MS: PLEASE SUPPORT 4K!

I bet they'll both put a 4K upscaler in their box. Can't see them support it natively.

[Jake Tower]

They want to drive specs up so the higher end game releases look better so the market's expectations for visuals are raised so less rich developers are forced to buy a new engine license to compete rather than just relying on UE3 so they turn to the successor to the engine they're familiar with, and therefore help Epic make loads of money. Same reason Crytek want ridiculously powerful consoles.

I think there is cynical truth to this.

[Thunder Monkey]

Then don't expect any decent tech increases. They need to be around $400. $500 is killing it. It needs to be in the $300-$400 range again (for different SKUs).

Even "decent" tech increases aren't going to make games look much better than they do today.

[Hot Coldman]

So long as Unreal is still the hyper-dependable post for which developers without the resources to build their own engines can dance around, helping prop up the industry, then I'm happy. That's what Unreal means to me. Hopefully they realise too that they are proponents of industry efficiency first and foremost, not industry evolution.

[pramath]

I've been saying this for a very long time now, the next generation of home consoles will be a modest leap over the HD twins at best. It will be a 'super' gen, a cooldown generation, where the harcware power consolidates, and software development costs come under control. This just reaffirms that belief.

[Kunan]

None of the things you mention is inherently negatively impacted by more powerful hardware. PC has more developers, more games, more niche genres and the most powerful hardware.

PC is also dominated by word of mouth and a steam interface that pushes indie games through deals. Console sales are dominated by 30 second TV spots.

[Twenty7KVN]

News flash cliffyB gamers don't want to pay $600+ for a system that's the size of a fridge. I'm pretty sure someone posted that already.

[Ponn01]

This is why I believe Cloud gaming is the future...Cheaper costs and your console will never be outdated. I still have a feeling MS will release a cloud box.

Not even close to that yet. Infrastructure is not there to support it, heck its not there to support a DD only future yet. And you have to get everyone on board for DD before you can even think of going that route.

[walking fiend]

I'm not. The amount of subtle (and not-so-subtle) lobbying against high-end gaming over the past years has been staggering, particularly on this forum. Unsurprisingly, it started when Nintendo released the Wii. I can't recall gamers on message boards worrying incessantly about development costs before that. I wonder how different this thread would be had that never happened.

Sure it hasn't got anything to do with $600 PS3, PSP with no games, PSV being DOA, etc., RROD, Japanese developers becoming mostly irrelevant, western devs shutting down, etc.?

[massoluk]

Wow, I'm shocked at their being such a large portion of GAF who don't want this. Wow.

I'm being practical, a lot of great developers went busted this gen even after selling what would have been considered a great number of software in the last gen.

[Durante]

PC is also dominated by word of mouth and a steam interface that pushes indie games through deals. Console sales are dominated by 30 second TV spots.

So consoles adapt or die. Either way is fine, and better than limping along as mediocre half-measures.

Sure it hasn't got anything to do with $600 PS3, PSP with no games, PSV being DOA, etc.?

Yes, I'm quite certain that particular line of "hardware performance = development costs and therefore weak hardware = good for developers" argument has little to do with those. It was introduced during (and has been championed since) the Wii release.

[kuroshiki]

why are we worrying about the manufacturers by the way? Why do we care if it costs them a couple hundred more to make a console? Thats how its worked in the past and they can make it work now - MS have things like LIVE fees, and you cost engineer anyway, so those subsidies are only for the first year or two, where your volumes aren't that high. By the time you're hitting the mainstream, you want a break-even console.

Wii changed everything. That model no longer is desirable by console manufacturers.

To be honest $299 or $399 60fps, 1080p with A LOT better texture is all I want for next gen.

[axisofweevils]

For the sake of the industry, I hope Sony and Microsoft tell Epic to go away.

[JoeTheBlow]

If they were actively involved with the next-gen they would be so NDA'd up the ass that they would not DARE talk shit like this, or say a fucking word to anyone about anything, never mind the press.
I call bullshit, yet again. EPIC bullshit.

[gcubed]

I've been saying this for a very long time now, the next generation of home consoles will be a modest leap over the HD twins at best. It will be a 'super' gen, a cooldown generation, where the harcware power consolidates, and software development costs come under control. This just reaffirms that belief.

unfortunately for Sony thats a much bigger problem for them than for MS. Abandoning the cell to go more to a PC architecture is going to be a huge PR problem for them and for their PSN service.

The next generation of at least the HD twins seems to be going more for a reset, which is good, i'm just curious to see how Sony handles it.

[rollingstart]

If anyone's worrying about price, there are worse ways to increase it. Xbox costs $100 more with Kinect. Wii U already requires its tablet controller, and if Durango requires Kinect and PS4 requires its 'unique' add-on, I'm guessing the baseline cost for MS/Sony's consoles will be north of $400 by a fair amount. Next gen is going to be expensive.

[jakncoke]

Huh?

If they listen to Epic, we'll need 3 jobs and have to trick ourselves in our sleep.

[Mr Swine]

Because old gens were big leaps in terms of technology. 2D->some 3D->full scale 3D, advanced lighting->shaders, motion capture, full voice acting, high res models and textures that are downsampled for maintaining framerate. But new gen will be about using those advanced assets in their full potential and better lighting, interaction etc. It wont increase cost exponentially, because there is no planned feature to do so [like full voice acting or million poly models]. They are already making games like CG movies, with almost the same technology. Guys think first, comment later, because we will just repeat the same argument over and over in every page.

And budgets are still getting higher and higher for each gen despite everyone saying "well they are making games like CG movies and they dont need to scale down the graphics no Moreno they will save lots of monies!" type of BS that gets said every gen

[kuroshiki]

unfortunately for Sony thats a much bigger problem for them than for MS. Abandoning the cell to go more to a PC architecture is going to be a huge PR problem for them and for their PSN service. The next generation of at least the HD twins seems to be going more for a reset, which is good, i'm just curious to see how Sony handles it.

X86 architecture has nothing to do with PSN.

[Hot Coldman]

If they were actively involved with the next-gen they would be so NDA'd up the ass that they would not DARE talk shit like this, or say a fucking word to anyone about anything, never mind the press. I call bullshit, yet again. EPIC bullshit.

Eh? They're not giving away anything close to concrete details at all. And to certain extents Epic has a good amount of leverage over Sony and MS- they can do stuff like this. It's called lobbying.

[Fancy Corndog]

You've just been Wii'd.

First post nailed it.

I just hope this is an actual jump. I don't want another $599 console, but I am equally opposed to them treating hardware like Nintendo has been.

[Nibel]

Pre-Orders cancelled.

[Thunder Monkey]

Yes, I'm quite certain that particular line of "hardware performance = development costs and therefore weak hardware = good for developers" argument has little to do with those. It was introduced during (and has been championed since) the Wii release.

A few championed it before. *cough*

But I could see the writing on the wall when devs were projecting next-gen engine development to cost on the order of 20-30 times prior costs.

[gcubed]

X86 architecture has nothing to do with PSN.

it has a lot to do with abandoning your catalog that is programmed to run on cell.

[Ponn01]

I'm not. The amount of subtle (and not-so-subtle) lobbying against high-end gaming over the past years has been staggering, particularly on this forum. Unsurprisingly, it started when Nintendo released the Wii. I can't recall gamers on message boards worrying incessantly about development costs before that. I wonder how different this thread would be had that never happened.

I believe it has more to do with seeing good studios close, the rest consolidated under a few "evil" corporations, $60 games, $60 games not being enough so you have to pay extra for endings, quests, the rest of the character roster, etc etc, online passes, developers and publishers pushing to kill the used market and companies outright saying development costs are driving them out of business.

Reasonable people given a choice of "whoa, lets reign this is in" or seeing it crash and burn will choose the reign it in option.

I'm not reasonable though, the way the industry has been acting so blindly, foolishly and extremely, blatantly and flaunting its anti-consumer i say let it burn.

[Erethian]

Yes, I'm quite certain that particular line of "hardware performance = development costs and therefore weak hardware = good for developers" argument has little to do with those. It was introduced during (and has been championed since) the Wii release.

Well in this case a lot of people see correlation as causation. HD systems come out, revenues go up, more and more companies either make smaller profits or lose hundreds of millions year on year, a slew of studios close.

Under that context, attributing it entirely to the introduction of the Wii is absolutely ridiculous.

[jimi_dini]

5999$

believe

lol

[angelfly]

Wii changed everything. That model no longer is desirable by console manufacturers. To be honest $299 or $399 60fps, 1080p with A LOT better texture is all I want for next gen.

720p at a locked 30fps is going to be the target for most devs next gen.

[Thunder Monkey]

So consoles adapt or die. Either way is fine, and better than limping along as mediocre half-measures.

The issue seems to be (at least in my case) those that believe they can compete, and those that don't.

I know consoles can't compete. Unless case sizes and power usage increases on a scale we've never seen, consoles will not just be behind, but by a metric fuckton.

[Forsaken82]

If graphics don't get a huge improvement in the next gen consoles, then what the fuck is the point of making them? We may as well stay with our current gen until Sony and MS find it economically viable to make consoles with vastly improved graphics. Why are there people in this thread actively rooting for a new gen with marginal graphical improvement?

Because they would rather pay 400 dollars for a console than 600 or more?

[Durante]

I believe it has more to do with seeing good studios close, the rest consolidated under a few "evil" corporations

This has been happening since the early 90s. Was the 486DX2 too powerful or could it be that a variety of different reasons are responsible for the closure/consolidation of great development studios?

[DR3AM]

I'm pretty sure both Sony and MS want their next gen system to be as powerful as possible but if it means a $500+ system, they simply wont do it. Sony cant afford it and MS doesn't want to do it.

[Criminal Upper]

Why do they NEED to be more powerful again? Do we REALLY need it?

[BrainZEROX]

They need to damn near render Avatar in real time, because I want it and gamers want it - even if they don't know they want it.

Stop your BS Sweeney, you don't know what I want.

What I want is something reasonably more powerful than my PS3 and I also want it reliable, silent, affordable and not requiring half the output a Nuclear plant produces. Plus, I also don't want it to destroy the gaming industry so I can enjoy more games on my next console.

So stop Tim. Stop now. I can afford and build a super powered PC if I want RT Avatar stuff but I don't care. The thing I want are good games, not technological demoes.

[walking fiend]

Yes, I'm quite certain that particular line of "hardware performance = development costs and therefore weak hardware = good for developers" argument has little to do with those. It was introduced during (and has been championed since) the Wii release.

Yes, but that's only one of the reason people don't want next gen consoles to use high end tech (and obviously cost proportionally more).

Also, I believe we just recently have two comments regarding next gen dev costs, one from Ubisoft and one from Warren Spector; I guess there are definitely more insightful than some random people arguing whether costs will increase or not.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/20...n-game-budgets
http://www.gamezone.com/products/xbo...next-gen-costs
(sorry at random sites, just linked whatever google brought up)

[Thunder Monkey]

This has been happening since the early 90s. Was the 486DX2 too powerful or could it be that different reasons are responsible for the closure/consolidation of great development studios?

Earlier than that actually.

Consolidation has been a mainstay of this industry for nearly as long as it has existed.

[gcubed]

Why do they NEED to be more powerful again? Do we REALLY need it?

well, we could still all be playing games on colecovision or atari

[TONX]

Why doesn't Epic just make their own system?

[impact]

720p at a locked 30fps is going to be the target for most devs next gen.

You mean 60fps right?

[Thunder Monkey]

Why doesn't Epic just make their own system?

Yeah... like they could afford to make it.

[Pureauthor]

I'm not. The amount of subtle (and not-so-subtle) lobbying against high-end gaming over the past years has been staggering, particularly on this forum. Unsurprisingly, it started when Nintendo released the Wii. I can't recall gamers on message boards worrying incessantly about development costs before that. I wonder how different this thread would be had that never happened.

And at the same time, it was only during the advent of the PS3/360 era where being a graphics whore became something to be lauded instead of something to be mocked. So I don't see how that's a relevant issue.

[mugurumakensei]

I'm not. The amount of subtle (and not-so-subtle) lobbying against high-end gaming over the past years has been staggering, particularly on this forum. Unsurprisingly, it started when Nintendo released the Wii. I can't recall gamers on message boards worrying incessantly about development costs before that. I wonder how different this thread would be had that never happened.

Courtesy of kotaku... Every game studio closed since 2006.

3D Realms - 2009 7 Studios (Activision) - 2011 Backbone Vancouver BigBig (Sony) - 2012 Bizarre Creations (Activision) - 2010/2011 Black Rock (Disney) - 2011 Blue Fang Games - 2011 Blue Tongue (THQ) - 2011 BottleRocket - 2009 Brash Entertainment - 2008 Budcat (Activision) - 2010 Castaway Entertainment - 2008 Cheyenne Mountain - 2010 Cing - 2010 Clover Studios (Capcom) - 2006 Codemasters Guildford - 2011 Cohort Studios - 2011 Concrete Games - 2008 Deep Silver Vienna - 2010 DICE Canada - 2006 EA Chicago - 2007 EA Bright Light - 2011/2012 EA Japan - 2007 Eidos Manchester - 2009 Eidos Hungary - 2010 Ensemble Studios (Microsoft) - 2008 Factor 5 - 2009 FASA (Microsoft) - 2007 Fizz Factor - 2009 Flagship Studios - 2008 Flight Plan - 2010 Frozen North Productions FuzzyEyes - 2009 Gamelab - 2009 Game Republic - 2011 GRIN - 2009 Helixe (THQ) - 2008 Hudson Entertainment - 2011 Humannature Studio (Nexon Vancouver) - 2009 Ignition London - 2010 Ignition Florida - 2010 Incognito Entertainment (Sony) - 2009 Indie Built (Take-Two) - 2006 Iron Lore - 2008 Juice Games (THQ) - 2011 Kaos Studios (THQ) - 2011 Killaware - 2011 Killspace Entertainment - 2011 KMM Brisbane - 2011 Krome Studios (might still be operating on skeleton crew) - 2010 Kuju Manila - 2009 Kuju Chemistry - 2009 Kush Games - 2008 Locomotive Games (THQ) - 2010 Luxoflux - 2010 Mass Media (THQ) - 2008 Monte Cristo - 2010 Monumental Games - 2012 Midway Austin - 2009 Midway Newcastle - 2009 MTV Games - 2011 Multiverse - 2012 NetDevil - 2011 Ninja Studio - 2009 Outerlight - 2010 PAM Development (Take-Two) - 2008 Pandemic Australia (EA) - 2009 Pandemic LA (EA) - 2009 Paradigm Entertainment - 2008 Pi Studios - 2011 Pivotal Games (Take-Two) - 2008 Propaganda Games (Disney) - 2011 Pseudo Interactive - 2008 Rainbow Studios (THQ) - 2011 Realtime Worlds - 2010 Rebellion Derby - 2010 Red Octane - 2010 Rockstar Vienna - 2006 Sandblast Games (THQ) - 2008 SEGA San Francisco - 2010 Shaba Games (Activision) - 2009 SOE Denver - 2011 SOE Seattle - 2011 SOE Tuscon - 2011 Stormfront Studios - 2008 Straylight Studios - 2009 Team Bondi - 2011 The Code Monkeys - 2011 Titan Studios - 2009 THQ Studio Australia - 2009 THQ Digital Warrington - 2009 Transmission Games - 2009 Universomo (THQ) - 2009 Venom Games (Take Two) - 2008 Vicarious Visions California - 2007 Visceral Australia (EA) - 2011 Wolfpack Studios - 2006 Yuke's Company Of America - 2010 Zoe Mode London - 2009

Along with this, the entirety of THQ will be closed soon.

[Durante]

^^ I won't get into a list war, but there were tons of companies closed and/or bought up before 2010.

Earlier than that actually. Consolidation has been a mainstay of this industry for nearly as long as it has existed.

Probably, the early 90s is just as far back as I know for certain that it has been happening. (Fuck 90s EA)

And at the same time, it was only during the advent of the PS3/360 era where being a graphics whore became something to be lauded instead of something to be mocked. So I don't see how that's a relevant issue.

What are you even talking about? Enjoying good graphics in games has been something that was just completely normal for every single gamer -- at least until the introduction of the Wii. That's how I remember it.

[tinfoilhatman]

Unless it's a big enough jump in power there's no reason for me to purchase, might as well go fulltime iOS gaming or back to PC gaming.

I want native 1080p with good quality AA and texture filtering, is that really to much to ask for?

[Thunder Monkey]

You mean 60fps right?

Nope.

They got more bumps they could make!

[Izick]

The stronger the consoles, the better for me. Just because there's more power there, it doesn't mean that it has to be utilized. Plus, as devs learn the consoles, the games won't hit a graphical ceiling as quickly. I'm not exactly sure why anyone wouldn't want more powerful consoles. I would rather pay another 100$ then have a console with games that don't look as good as they could have.

[1-D_FTW]

I've been saying this for a very long time now, the next generation of home consoles will be a modest leap over the HD twins at best. It will be a 'super' gen, a cooldown generation, where the harcware power consolidates, and software development costs come under control. This just reaffirms that belief.

It's my opinion this is true. And it'll be in the form of an iOS device with bluetooth controller support.

Which is why Epic wants MS and Sony to go big. Because if they can't outclass them on the graphics front, the 60 dollar AAA game will go the way of the middle tier games.

People are easily baited by these news outlets. I mean come on : "We're much more in sync with the console makers than any other developer is. That means we can give detailed recommendations with a complete understanding of what is going to be commercially possible." To this from Eurogamer: Apparently Epic has seen the specs of the PS4 and next Xbox and is "actively lobbying" for them to be more powerful. Critical thinking and reading skills go out the window in this thread. Bunch of fishes.

More like people who aren't backwards thinkers. It's obvious to anyone who sees the industry clearly. This is a desperate attempt to defend the 60 dollar blockbuster market (of which certain developers make a whole lot of money on). The day the 60 dollar game looks no different than your average iOS game, is the day the 60 dollar market collapses unto itself.

[Thunder Monkey]

Probably, the early 90s is just as far back as I know for certain that it has been happening. (Fuck 90s EA)

We disagree with one another on many things, but on this we don't.

Fuck 90's EA!

[FoneBone]

Yes, I'm quite certain that particular line of "hardware performance = development costs and therefore weak hardware = good for developers" argument has little to do with those. It was introduced during (and has been championed since) the Wii release.

Yeah, that's nonsense. It's increasingly obvious that the industry's headed for another crash if it can't drop the AAA arms race - it has nothing to do with championing Nintendo.