[BigDug13]

I predict we won't see Xbox 1 emulation in 10 years.

Xbox 1 was such a moddable piece of hardware, it's almost worth just having one completely modded with a huge HDD. The emulation community was pretty huge for that system. My first Media Center PC was a modded Xbox.

[Zee-Row]

There will always be emulation , SNES emulation didn't get perfect until a few years ago.

[2+2=5]

All you'd need is a console that has a linux option like the PS3 did; if it's an x86 console with GPU access, then just install wine and you're done. If it doesn't have an x86 CPU, then you have to run wine on top of an x86 emulator (usually qemu), which is very slow. I think some people had Diablo 1 and Starcraft 1 running somewhat decently on the PS3 before Sony yanked Linux support. As for the Vita specifically, it's very unlikely. PS Suite's managed code doesn't lend itself to emulators very well (even if they do add more languages), so an x86 emulator probably isn't going to happen any time soon. If it does, it'll be terribly slow. Also, porting wine to PS Suite would be a huge undertaking. If the Vita gets hacked wide open like the PSP did (don't hold your breath), then it becomes much easier once people get linux running on it. DOS games, on the other hand, might be pretty straightforward on the Vita.

Thanks for the explanation ;)

[amrihua]

Wine comes up with functional workarounds for software libraries that are all well documented and very easy to get one's hands on. To do anything similar to PS3 or 360, you'd need all to know the inner workings of stuff that's not for public consumption.

I was talking about the original XBox. What's about it that can't be figured out? Whatever APIs it depends on can't be too different from those on Windows and DirectX. Then again I don't know how custom the XBox's software was, the hardware obviously wasn't. If you can get Windows games to run on another OS without porting, getting an XBox game to run on Windows shouldn't be more difficult. Don't emulate the CPU or GPU, just translate the API calls.
It is not legal but someone might decompile the XBox's system software, making it that much easier.

The XBox 360 though is a totally different story, starting with its custom 3-core PowerPC processor. That thing can't be emulated and won't be for a long time.

[v1oz]

Well, here's a nice detailed explanation as to why Xbox emulation didn't take off. Not sure if I can link to the forum. tl;dr No one really figured the low-level details because of lack of documentation + sheer complexity. The Wii emulator was on a fast track because the architecture was very similar to the Gamecube. I think it's also why Dolphin emulated both.

Hmm interesting stuff there, but still no big excuse really for slow progress. Gamecube & PS2 should have been much more complex to emulate because the hardware is completely exotic, they are more different from PC's architecture-wise and their low level features & apis are also not well documented.

As for the CPU side, I don't see the need for a perfect 1:1 emulation, as computers can natively execute x86 code. So the XBox CPU only needs to be emulated at a high level, by simulating the response of the system rather than wasting time accurately recreating its internals design gate by gate.

[x3sphere]

Hmm interesting stuff there, but still no big excuse really for slow progress. Gamecube & PS2 should have been much more complex to emulate because the hardware is completely exotic, they are more different from PC's architecture-wise and their low level features & apis are also not well documented. As for the CPU side, I don't see the need for a perfect 1:1 emulation, as computers can natively execute x86 code. So the XBox CPU only needs to be emulated at a high level, by simulating the response of the system rather than wasting time accurately recreating its internals design gate by gate.

When you're reverse engineering as a hobby, I would think it's more fun to work on something exotic. I'm guessing lack of interest is why we don't have a fully working Xbox emulator today. I mean, Cxbx had Turok running back in 04, but progress hit a wall after that.

[FyreWulff]

Always seemed to me that programmers get more attention and therefore get more acclaim for getting homebrew running on the actual hardware than emulating the hardware on your PC these days. So as the consoles have gotten more powerful, people have become more interested in running software on them, than running them in software.

[jett]

Interest in emulation seems to have fallen by the wayside.

[Peagles]

Lucky I saw this thread, it reminded me I have to try out Dolphin on my new rig!

[M3d10n]

When you're reverse engineering as a hobby, I would think it's more fun to work on something exotic. I'm guessing lack of interest is why we don't have a fully working Xbox emulator today. I mean, Cxbx had Turok running back in 04, but progress hit a wall after that.

I might be wrong, but I remember reading somewhere that Cxbx works by running the X86 code directly on the host CPU (so the CPU is not emulated at all) and dealing with hardware calls by patching into the games' DirectX libraries. It's closer to virtualization than emulation.

This technique cuts down a lot of work (no need to emulate a x86 CPU), but has severe limitations. For example, some games are impossible to "emulate" because they were compiled using link-time optimization, which jumbles the code around so the DirectX libraries' code becomes blended into the code in a way that makes it very hard to patch the changes.

[dark10x]

My interest in emulation on my PC has kind of dropped as of late.

The fact is, I've come to prefer the real hardware and simply wind up collecting for that instead.

For older consoles, RGB + high quality SDTV offers great image quality and accuracy. There's simply a look that you get with 240p content on an SDTV that emulators just can't match. Even those "NTSC" image plug-ins don't do the trick. I absolutely love the appearance of 240p on a proper CRT.

For Dreamcast, Gamecube, and XBOX I typically use the same Sony SDTV but I also have a Sony HDTV CRT if I want to use full 480p with those systems.

Displaying any system from last generation or prior on a larger HDTV (plasma or LCD) simply doesn't yield attractive results.

Now, that doesn't mean I don't still love emulation. My primary use for it these days is with portable game systems. Emulating old systems on a PSP (especially the Go), for instance, is just an amazing experience. It's great having those games available on a handheld with proper 1:1 pixel display.

[OTIX]

Man, soon our quantum computers are gonna emulate every game at the same time.

[Charoncaori]

Emulation has only gotten bigger since digital download games became popular, so it's not going anywhere. I really prefer playing games on the original hardware, with mods... I wish I could boot ps2 games off of the HD, for instance (but it runs on usb 1.x, eew) because I'm pretty sure I can make the hardware last longer than the discs.

[Dapperk]

so.. PS3 must be a bitch to emulate? given even the developer have hard time making game for PS3 let alone emulate it in the near future

Well the same was said at one time about the Saturn and the PS2.

[Jtrizzy]

Wish the rogue squadron gamecube cames worked, and sc:da xbox version.

[MrCunningham]

Emulating the SNES or GBA is a good project for hobbyists.

I may be wrong, but I am under the impression that most devices that use arm processors are easier to emulate because there's so much documentation out there to do so. I wonder how hard the 3DS would be to emulate with its PICA200 GPU? But on the Vita side, the PSV uses some sort of PowerPC chip set, and those have been emulated under iOS and Android emulators, I think?

[cartman414]

The number of course isn't the problem. You just need one core per emulated core, and that will likely happen soon enough on PC.

That's sort of the thing. How many cores does the PS3 have, technically speaking?

[SparkTR]

I still want to play Shenmue 1 without a dreamcast.

I finished that on an emulator recently, I even imported items to Shenmue 2. Worked great overall.

[amrihua]

But on the Vita side, the PSV uses some sort of PowerPC chip set, and those have been emulated under iOS and Android emulators, I think?

The Vita has something akin to a quad core A5. There is no such thing as a quad core A5 but if it existed it would be similar to what's in the Vita.

Vita:
4-core ARM Cortex-A9 MPCore
4-core PowerVR SGX543MP4+

Apple A5:
dual-core ARM Cortex-A9 MPCore
dual core PowerVR SGX543MP2

[drugstore_cowboy]

My interest in emulation on my PC has kind of dropped as of late. The fact is, I've come to prefer the real hardware and simply wind up collecting for that instead. For older consoles, RGB + high quality SDTV offers great image quality and accuracy. There's simply a look that you get with 240p content on an SDTV that emulators just can't match. Even those "NTSC" image plug-ins don't do the trick. I absolutely love the appearance of 240p on a proper CRT.

MAME (using RGB out @15khz) used to look nigh on identical to the orginal coin-ops when played on an SDTV. As far as I know MESS can be set up the same way but the emulation itself isn't always that great.

[JoeTheBlow]

Modern (post 2002) GPU's are way too complicated to emulate. They are refined, specialised hardware, that work in a completely different way to CPU's.
Even with unlimited CPU speed you need the documentation and instruction set, which, as that Xbox emulator guy stated earlier in the thread, Nvidia are very good at keeping secret.
If Xbox still isn't anywhere near emulated, after years of trying, i don't see why the FAR more advanced 360/PS3 systems will ever be (by hobbyists). PS1 and PS2 never even had a proper GPU like the kind we have now, and they obviously weren't multi-core.

I don't even know how the fuck you'd emulate the Cell at any reasonable speed, even dedicating one real CPU core per SPU may not be enough, the whole thing depends on ridiculously high-speed hardware interconnections.
Comparing today's hardware with emulation of consoles from the previous century is like night and day.

[EuropeOG]

The Wii is down so that leaves 360 and PS3, 5 years until we can emulate them on PC would be great but that's never going to happen

I meant like beginning to emulate, probably very rough. Will probably be the least interesting generation to emulate on PC as so many of its games were shared with PC.

Wii emulation still has a few problems right now anyway.

[Durante]

Modern (post 2002) GPU's are way too complicated to emulate. They are refined, specialised hardware, that work in a completely different way to CPU's.

The good thing about GPUs is that it's much more viable to do high level emulation for them, so the exact hardware details aren't as relevant.

PS1 and PS2 never even had a proper GPU like the kind we have now, and they obviously weren't multi-core.

While not exactly multi-core in the modern sense, the VUs are close enough. (http://www.philvaz.com/games/PS2.htm) That's why PCSX2 takes advantage of 3 cores.

[dark10x]

MAME (using RGB out @15khz) used to look nigh on identical to the orginal coin-ops when played on an SDTV. As far as I know MESS can be set up the same way but the emulation itself isn't always that great.

Right, but you need special hardware to pull it off properly (a video card capable of 15khz output at 240p). If you build a proper Mame cab it definitely can look awesome, though.

[Brettison]

XBOX1 really needs to be emulated some day, so many games would benefit from cleaner image quality alone.

This would be SOOOO $$$$ especially considering so many Xbox games were setup for widescreen too. Games like Panzer Dragoon Orta or Gunvalkyrie would be OMG awesome!

[Tain]

Even if you have the correct hardware for RGB out at 15khz, even when outputting in the correct resolution and refresh rate (which looks fantastic, I agree), you still need to either live with screen tearing or live with a few frames of lag.

It's a damn shame.

[djtiesto]

My interest in emulation on my PC has kind of dropped as of late. The fact is, I've come to prefer the real hardware and simply wind up collecting for that instead. For older consoles, RGB + high quality SDTV offers great image quality and accuracy. There's simply a look that you get with 240p content on an SDTV that emulators just can't match. Even those "NTSC" image plug-ins don't do the trick. I absolutely love the appearance of 240p on a proper CRT. For Dreamcast, Gamecube, and XBOX I typically use the same Sony SDTV but I also have a Sony HDTV CRT if I want to use full 480p with those systems. Displaying any system from last generation or prior on a larger HDTV (plasma or LCD) simply doesn't yield attractive results. Now, that doesn't mean I don't still love emulation. My primary use for it these days is with portable game systems. Emulating old systems on a PSP (especially the Go), for instance, is just an amazing experience. It's great having those games available on a handheld with proper 1:1 pixel display.

I prefer to play games on the actual consoles whenever possible, but lately I've been getting slightly back into the fan translation scene - a lack of interesting stuff to play on home consoles crossed with a ton of fan translations I missed (Radical Dreamers, Sylvan Tale, Emerald Dragon) is the reason... unfortunately the latest version of the "super accurate BSNES" seems to render translation patches unplayable, which is a shame.

[Fudgepuppy]

play it on the iphone lol

On a touch-screen? Pfft.

[dark10x]

I grabbed a PSP Go just the other day, actually, and man is that one awesome device for retro emulation. Most emulators run beautifully on the hardware and the system itself is tiny yet well built.

Perhaps the most interesting feature is the video out + PS3 controller compatibility. You can link a PS3 controller to the system and use that as your primary means of input at any point. If you then output it to a display, you'll basically be able to use the PSP Go as a console. So, basically, it allows the PSP Go to become a portable emulation station that can be used both on the go or in conjunction with a TV setup.

Very cool.

[M3d10n]

Right, but you need special hardware to pull it off properly (a video card capable of 15khz output at 240p). If you build a proper Mame cab it definitely can look awesome, though.

It isn't hard to find suitable hardware, though. The Radeon 9000 series are known to work perfectly. I believe many of the HD 4000 series are also compatible (at least the 4850 is).

The ArcadeVGA boards are actually Radeon 9200 with the extra resolutions patched into the BIOS so they work without installing any additional software.

[Oemenia]

One of my favourite things about the 360 is how it emulates OG XBOX games. Given that the library was full of great PC ports, its nice to be able to play them all on one system, without installs, smooth gamepad controls and filtered graphics (breaths new life into your old games, San Andreas arguably becomes the best version).

[injurai]

I have a feeling current gen will be very hard to emulate. PS2 is still just now coming into its own, and is far from perfect. Of course Dolphin is quite advanced, and I don't think I have ever heard of an Xbox emulator although that was practically a PC so I'm sure there is something floating around.

Those saying emulation will catch up with current releases are delusional. It will only take longer and longer to emulate things. PS3 and 360 are far off from being emulated.

[dark10x]

One of my favourite things about the 360 is how it emulates OG XBOX games. Given that the library was full of great PC ports, its nice to be able to play them all on one system, without installs, smooth gamepad controls and filtered graphics (breaths new life into your old games, San Andreas arguably becomes the best version).

Yeah, but many of the games it does emulate are almost completely broken. I recently tried Red Dead Revolver on the 360 and, man, is it broken. So many glitches and incorrect visuals throughout. It's basically unplayable.

Even the games that DO run properly tend to run slower or exhibit minor defects (Halo included). It simply was never well realized.

nd I don't think I have ever heard of an Xbox emulator although that was practically a PC so I'm sure there is something floating around.

Look back at the first page and you'll see how wrong that assumption is. :)

[2MF]

I might be wrong, but I remember reading somewhere that Cxbx works by running the X86 code directly on the host CPU (so the CPU is not emulated at all) and dealing with hardware calls by patching into the games' DirectX libraries. It's closer to virtualization than emulation. This technique cuts down a lot of work (no need to emulate a x86 CPU), but has severe limitations. For example, some games are impossible to "emulate" because they were compiled using link-time optimization, which jumbles the code around so the DirectX libraries' code becomes blended into the code in a way that makes it very hard to patch the changes.

You are right, but I'm 99% sure that the quote posted by Wolf Akela (3rd post of this thread) was in fact written by the author (or one of the contributors) of Cxbx.

Even the quote itself states that the x86 CPU is the easy part in getting Xbox emulation to work.

[Oemenia]

Yeah, but many of the games it does emulate are almost completely broken. I recently tried Red Dead Revolver on the 360 and, man, is it broken. So many glitches and incorrect visuals throughout. It's basically unplayable. Even the games that DO run properly tend to run slower or exhibit minor defects (Halo included). It simply was never well realized.

Emulation for the most part is just fine though, and a few glitches here and there are easy to overlook when you get all the benefits of console gaming. In fact one of the best things about the XBOX was how it handled multiplats which were close to the PC versions but retained the playability and immersion of a console game.

As with San Andreas, its my favourite game of all time, nothing comes close, while the PC version looks significantly better even on vanilla, playing it on the 360 still gives it a more refreshed looks, as well as the great XBOX controls from the GTA ports as well as the shoulder button use from the PS2 versions.

[Lord Error]

Interest in emulation seems to have fallen by the wayside.

I definitely have that feeling too. There used to be an incredibly busy and bustlig scene around it, forums upon forums with ridiculous amounts of activity, seemingly daily updates of all the popular emulators. Now, it really seems to have died down a lot. On the positive end, the remaining people are interested in game preservation and playing the games they own on their PCs, not so much about FREE ROMZ and LEAKED BETAS!

[eso76]

yeah, i remember when xbox1 was announced and everyone was saying buying it was pointless, since that low spec pc in a box would be emulated in a matter of weeks.

Aside from that, interest in emulation started falling years ago, i think it was especially big with arcade games, with people finally being able to play perfect replicas of that game from their youth.
There's very few arcade games left to emulate, and there's backwards compatibility allowing you to play older console games now.
Maybe we're getting a new wave of nostalgia 15 years from now, though

[dark10x]

Emulation for the most part is just fine though, and a few glitches here and there are easy to overlook when you get all the benefits of console gaming. In fact one of the best things about the XBOX was how it handled multiplats which were close to the PC versions but retained the playability and immersion of a console game. As with San Andreas, its my favourite game of all time, nothing comes close, while the PC version looks significantly better even on vanilla, playing it on the 360 still gives it a more refreshed looks, as well as the great XBOX controls from the GTA ports as well as the shoulder button use from the PS2 versions.

A few glitches? It really depends on the game. San Andreas may be fine but that in no way translate to all other games.

Some games are completely broken when played on a 360.

[plagiarize]

I grabbed a PSP Go just the other day, actually, and man is that one awesome device for retro emulation. Most emulators run beautifully on the hardware and the system itself is tiny yet well built. Perhaps the most interesting feature is the video out + PS3 controller compatibility. You can link a PS3 controller to the system and use that as your primary means of input at any point. If you then output it to a display, you'll basically be able to use the PSP Go as a console. So, basically, it allows the PSP Go to become a portable emulation station that can be used both on the go or in conjunction with a TV setup. Very cool.

yep. that's why i still love my Go. i wish they hadn't dropped those features for the Vita. my Go currently has all my lucasarts games on it, quake, doom 1 and 2, and a bunch of PSX stuff. it's retro gaming in my pocket, or on a big screen with a dual shock if i want.

[shuri]

the remaining people are interested in game preservation and playing the games they own on their PCs, not so much about FREE ROMZ and LEAKED BETAS!

Even there, I kinda consider it amateur hour. MAME is fucking crap when it comes to properly emulating the original audio mixing; and also scalling effects.

Nothing will ever beat the actual hardware. There are some SUPER hardcore guys on the arcade scene that makes miracles on the real hardware to make them run. Lots of classic arcade boards are starting to fail now because the caps have a shelf life before starting to corode, etc; this is common for the audio components of Konami stuff (xmen, simpsons, etc), and there are guys out there that can fix them using modern components that will basically make them 'immortal' haha.

Same thing with early vector base stuff; some guys developed a custom clone of the cpu that is a 100% drop in for the original cpu used on those boards. I saw one guy who FIXED (!!) the original Outrun scalling code because the game actually used tables with coordinates all pre-calculated positions for every x,y,z position, so this way the game could simulate the 3D effect super fast. Well some guy figured out that there was a bug in the actual original game; one of the table had the wrong data coded in (he suspects those tables were inputed manually and thats how the mistake happened), and well, he fixed the tables and the scaling is now smoother. He recompiled the roms and they are now available for download on his site; this way you can reburn them and reinstall them on the real hardware board..

[Sato Koiji]

It will eventually die out.

The systems are getting more complicated to the point where the effort to do these are much...much higher than the profit. Whoops...I forgot they do not profit from these :D

So no chance :D

[ari]

no

[pestul]

Unfortunately, I think it would take a lot of leaks from MS and Sony for either of their machines to be emulated in the next 10yrs (by hobbyists).

[charlequin]

Even there, I kinda consider it amateur hour. MAME is fucking crap when it comes to properly emulating the original audio mixing; and also scalling effects.

Yeah, sound has unfortunately lagged behind graphics in almost all emulation scenes, in large part because it's pretty easy to get something that "sounds right" to undiscerning ears and often very, very hard to improve much from there. Hopefully sound improvement will be a big focus for MAME going forward -- even if it can't match the original boards completely.

[missile]

Microprocessors do build microprocessors.

[Falcs00]

There will always be emulation , SNES emulation didn't get perfect until a few years ago.

Gettouta town...
I've been using SNES emulation perfectly for many years! At least a good 7-8 years.

Edit: Unless there are games that didn't work properly until recently that I don't know about. There probably are...
Ok, I'll just climb back into my little hole...

[Gully State]

Gettouta town... I've been using SNES emulation perfectly for many years! At least a good 7-8 years. Edit: Unless there are games that didn't work properly until recently that I don't know about. There probably are... Ok, I'll just climb back into my little hole...

Previous emulators weren't 100% perfect (even with games that run, there would be artifacts). Only recently has there been an absolute 100% perfect SNES emulator released (apparently it takes pretty decent hardware to run as well)

[Collider]

Won't it be possible to emulate xbox 1, if there was enough documentation and shit available?

[herod]

Cell at least should be well documented given that it was sold commercially by IBM. I'd guess it would need to be emulated mostly on a GPU though.

[Falcs00]

Previous emulators weren't 100% perfect (even with games that run, there would be artifacts). Only recently has there been an absolute 100% perfect SNES emulator released (apparently it takes pretty decent hardware to run as well)

Really? I've been using ZSnes for as long as I can remember. Is that the emulator? You don't need that good a hardware set up to run it.
Or am I missing out on something from another better emulator?

Are we aloud to talk emulators here? I only run ROMs of games that I already own.