[radioheadrule83]

I love how much Wii fans suddenly care about graphics power.

You're implying some kind of hypocrisy, but that's not necessarily the case.

Eusis said it well at the top of this page (if you're a 100ppp person)... sticking with SD might have been the right decision for Nintendo and proved a point about the primacy of gameplay over anything else, but that's not to say we can't all acknowledge that 6 years have passed, that the Wii has been squeezed for all it can do and that new hardware is necessary. And as Eusis said, processing power and graphical capability are important to the degree that a machine needs to be capable of the latest trends (procedural animation, physics calculations), and running the latest engines. It needs to be at least strong enough to ensure third parties will no longer put their B-teams on Nintendo projects, as they did en masse with the Wii (to their own detriment in some cases) and so that they can easily port about and do business more easily. I'm not just saying that as a Nintendo fan, or that that would be the best thing for Nintendo, I think that would be the best thing for everybody.

I want the Wii-U to be as strong as it can be, while being as affordable and as fresh as it can be... but as always, it will be the games that sell us this system.

[Dali]

Wii U less powerful than PS360: What a joke Nintendo As Powerful: Well done Nintendo, welcome to 2005. More powerful: Good job being better than 7 year old hardware Nintendo.

As to the last point, I think the expectation is it would be marginally more powerful.. as in still not unreasonable to compare it to 7 year old hardware. If it's revealed the Wii U is in fact comparable to the speculated power of the PS4 and Nextbox then I'm pretty sure the last criticism would disappear.

[Lonely1]

I love how much Wii fans suddenly care about graphics power.

Plz, find the post where I said they doesn't. You are painting with a very wide brush there...

[H_Prestige]

so my guess is that the wii-u can handle some more advanced techniques but in terms of pure processing power and raw numbers it's not much more powerful then current gen hardware.

So kind of like 3DS vs PSP? I could see that.

[ScreenSplitter]

So kind of like 3DS vs PSP? I could see that.

I see 3DS as considerably more powerful than a PSP. If you go back and play various PSP games, it's not that impressive.

[Cheesecakebobby]

I see 3DS as considerably more powerful than a PSP. If you go back and play various PSP games, it's not that impressive.

It has to be more powerful to render twice, but I think if you play with 3D turned off, I don't think the games look much more complex than PSP games. It's mostly nicer effects.

[radioheadrule83]

As to the last point, I think the expectation is it would be marginally more powerful.. as in still not unreasonable to compare it to 7 year old hardware. If it's revealed the Wii U is in fact comparable to the speculated power of the PS4 and Nextbox then I'm pretty sure the last criticism would disappear.

Why would it be though if it's releasing this year and at an affordable price instead of at $400 at the end of 2013 or possibly early 2014? Why is that expectation there? It's so ridiculous.

Given the timing and likely pricing differential, its impossible that it will be at or directly near the same level. But it'll be out this Christmas and out for a good 12-18 months where its the best console you can buy. I don't think that's too shabby, if they hit the right sweet spot.

[AceBandage]

It has to be more powerful to render twice, but I think if you play with 3D turned off, I don't think the games look much more complex than PSP games. It's mostly nicer effects.

Also better IQ and far less dithering.

[Cmd. Pishad'aç]

This thread is slowly becoming WUST VII...

[H_Prestige]

I see 3DS as considerably more powerful than a PSP. If you go back and play various PSP games, it's not that impressive.

I'm just going by the difference between KH BBS and KH 3D. They seem basically the same graphics wise, and I doubt any less effort was put into the 3DS game.

[Agent Ironside]

As I said in another thread: A better CPU with 3x the cache, 3x the ram, 3x the EDRam and double the GPU grunt (with additional capacity via some kind of fixed-function extensions). What kind of results would you expect from that? I'll tell you one thing: it's not going to touch my high-end PC. But then neither will any of the other consoles. That's not why you buy consoles.

It won't touch your high end pc's specs, no. But I tell what will happen, it'll make all of our PC games better looking, with next gen consoles, lifts a limitation set by current gen consoles. With next gen consoles also comes visuals we haven't seen before, at least to start out with, then PC's take a hold of the reigns in a short amount of time.

[magash]

I'm just going by the difference between KH BBS and KH 3D. They seem basically the same graphics wise, and I doubt any less effort was put into the 3DS game.

The 3DS is stronger than the ps2.

[AzaK]

Gearbox had better take heed and include that Wii Remote and Nunchuck support. No way I'm buying this if it only supports the tablet controller.

I think the pad would be great for a game like this.

It doesn't matter what the devs say. Manufacturing a console with 5-6 year old tech that's marginally comparable to what we've already had for the last 7 years is laughably bad. The WiiU is already obsolete before it even hits sales floors. smh

You know they were working on the tech up til end of ladtyear or even this year right?

[EloquentM]

I'm just going by the difference between KH BBS and KH 3D. They seem basically the same graphics wise, and I doubt any less effort was put into the 3DS game.

Your doubts mean squat as you weren't a part of the development process. By tradition KH games have not been technical feats in order to capitalize more on artstyle than anything else. Furthermore the best looking game on the 3DS (RE: Revelations) doesn't need a comparison game on the psp because it's visuals are clearly a generation ahead of any psp game. Also, why are you even arguing About the ds' power in this thread?

GAF sees what it wants to see.

I see you 0__o

[AceBandage]

GAF sees what it wants to see.

[Kurod]

The 3DS is stronger than the ps2.

Good job outperforming 12 year old hardware, Nintendo.

[Fabrik]

So kind of like 3DS vs PSP? I could see that.

I'm expecting this as well which would be enough for me.

[Hiltz]

Isn't Wii U's tech believed to be mostly from 2009 components ?

[EloquentM]

Good job outperforming 12 year old hardware, Nintendo.

10/10

E3 can't come soon enough.

[AceBandage]

Isn't Wii U's tech believed to be mostly from 2009 components ?

The GPU started development in 2009. Finished early this year.

[lunchwithyuzo]

Isn't Wii U's tech believed to be mostly from 2009 components ?

Yes, in the same way 360's tech dates back to 2001/2004.

[Hiltz]

Understood.

[magash]

Good job outperforming 12 year old hardware, Nintendo.

What gave you the idea that I am Nintendo/work for Nintendo?

[Fabrik]

Talking of 3DS vs PSP, is there a definitive comparison specs-wise of the two because in 2D, the graphics are quite similar.

[Horse Armour]

Yes, in the same way 360's tech dates back to 2001/2004.

Try again. 360 had the most advanced GPU in the world until the launch of the nvidia G80 a year later. Noone except the most insane pro Nintendo crazy would expect the same situation with the Wii U.

Also better IQ and far less dithering.

Hardly. PSP=272p, 3DS= 240p. Unless the game is running with AA on the 3DS (most don't), PSP will always have better IQ.

[KageMaru]

A. Just want some evidence is all. It's easy to make blanket statements about people and then not back it up. B. I recall the Xenoblade/Chris Kluwe thread for the chaos, but I don't really see the issue with people trashing the idea that graphics don't have to take away from gameplay. I find the PSX and PS2 to be full of absolute classics that I still play yet they have awful graphics. C. I'm only bothered by grenade-throwers that don't back up statements with evidence, which you haven't. As for me, I own a Wii, PS3, 360, Vita, and 3DS. Most of my gaming time comes from PS3/360.

A. I realize I'm making a blanket statement, but I'm not applying my statement to all of Nintendo-GAF, just those who my observations pertain to.

B. I am only talking about the posters that downplayed graphics as if they didn't matter or that the game wouldn't have been any different/better with improved graphics. Not those that thought Xenoblades wouldn't be possible with HD visuals, or those who were happy with Xenoblades' graphics.

C. I much rather not single out people due to comments made in other threads. I have no issue addressing posts within the thread itself, but I much rather not do that to people, it's not necessary to prove my point when it's apparent when you look for it IMO.

What are you talking about? The whole of Nintendo-GAF is always calling attention to his beautiful they think xenoblade is. They even defended its graphics in that very thread expressing how much of an achievement it is given the hardware it was designed on.

I'm not talking about those people. I specifically remember defending how graphics do matter. I wouldn't be making such points if people weren't downplaying the importance of graphics.

[EloquentM]

What gave you the idea that I am Nintendo/work for Nintendo?

He was being facetious and sarcastic.

[themadcowtipper]

I love how much Wii fans suddenly care about graphics power.

Just like the people that crap up a Nintendo threads, wanting them to go 3rd party so they can buy their games on other systems.... "Mario Bros is kiddie, but I would buy it on an IPAD"

[H_Prestige]

The 3DS is stronger than the ps2.

That KH game sure as hell suggests otherwise.

[StevieP]

It won't touch your high end pc's specs, no. But I tell what will happen, it'll make all of our PC games better looking, with next gen consoles, lifts a limitation set by current gen consoles. With next gen consoles also comes visuals we haven't seen before, at least to start out with, then PC's take a hold of the reigns in a short amount of time.

There is no doubt that a higher baseline in console hardware will result in the quality of multiplatform releases going up, but the days of the PC needing time to "hold the reigns" ended this generation.

Isn't Wii U's tech believed to be mostly from 2009 components ?

In the same way that the Power4 architecture that was the original basis of the PS3/360's CPU was originally designed in 2001. Or if you prefer a more modern example: Vita. It's one sexy piece of kit. With a CPU designed in 2008 and a GPU designed in 2009. I haven't yet met anyone that's called it a piece of crap, hardware-wise at least, even if I'm not a fan of its analog sticks. Sony could've chosen newer models of PowerVR (Rogue was available to to be licensed) for example, but chose the SGX543 instead.

[magash]

That KH game sure as hell suggests otherwise.

Based on your reasoning Gun shows that the Xbox360 isn't that powerful.

[EloquentM]

That KH game sure as hell suggests otherwise.

That Resident evil revelations game sure doesn't.

[themadcowtipper]

Based on your reasoning Gun shows that the Xbox360 isn't that powerful.

wallguy.pic

[Pociask]

Why would it be though if it's releasing this year and at an affordable price instead of at $400 at the end of 2013 or possibly early 2014? Why is that expectation there? It's so ridiculous. Given the timing and likely pricing differential, its impossible that it will be at or directly near the same level. But it'll be out this Christmas and out for a good 12-18 months where its the best console you can buy. I don't think that's too shabby, if they hit the right sweet spot.

I've got to believe the big wigs at Microsoft and Sony want to put the brakes on another high end beast. They know where most sales occur - and it's sub 200. They don't want another console that will take years to get to that pricepoint. Also, MS is likely including a new Kinect with every new 720.

I'll give you another year and another 50-100 dollars COULD make a significant difference. However, engineering a console isn't just assembling off the shelf parts from Newegg (not accusing you of believing this, just segueing to ->). It's possible that Nintendo's engineers are able to build an efficient beast that can overperform its price point - see the Gamecube. It's also possible that Sony's engineers can build a hypothetical beast that underperforms its price point due to difficulty programing - see PS3.

Tl;dr version - All of this is to say, I don't think it's as cut and dry as newer console, costs more, better machine.

[lunchwithyuzo]

That KH game sure as hell suggests otherwise.

And what do Monster Hunter and Resident Evil suggest? How about SFEX3 vs SSF4?

[tinfoilhatman]

Why would it be though if it's releasing this year and at an affordable price instead of at $400 at the end of 2013 or possibly early 2014? Why is that expectation there? It's so ridiculous. Given the timing and likely pricing differential, its impossible that it will be at or directly near the same level. But it'll be out this Christmas and out for a good 12-18 months where its the best console you can buy. I don't think that's too shabby, if they hit the right sweet spot.

So Wii-U $99-149$ launch day?

[fernoca]

These types of "See, look what he said! I was right, I was right, the Wii U really is better!" threads wouldn't exist otherwise. Just let the hardware come out and let the games' performance speak for themselves. I'm pretty sure nobody here actually has a Wii U or is programming games for it, so these topics are no less bullshit than the other ones quoting a guy who says the console is only about the same as ps360.

But that doesn't mean that "lol Nintendo fans care 'bout grafix now"! stuff that a few seem to pop out every here and there.

This threads are (usually) posted to counter the other threads. Heck, the speculation thread at first was supposed to have this kind of "news", to avoid precisely this constant threads, but it exploded into much more so many avoid the speculation threads and seems it was decided to allow this "news posts" to inform others.

Doesn't mean that the ones posting them or agreeing with them are "Nintendo fans that care about visuals". If that was the case, the "opposite threads" would beposted by Xbox 360/PS3 fanboys that only care about "negative Wii U news". :p

[Instro]

I'm just going by the difference between KH BBS and KH 3D. They seem basically the same graphics wise, and I doubt any less effort was put into the 3DS game.

It's the same engine iirc.

[StuBurns]

The PS2 and 3DS seem about even from what I've played. The 3DS has the shader stuff, but the best of the PS2 library seems to have produced more in terms of polycount, although, that's considering the stuff made five years or more into the PS2's life, not really fair to compare it now.

[ShinUltramanJ]

Talking of 3DS vs PSP, is there a definitive comparison specs-wise of the two because in 2D, the graphics are quite similar.

I used to think the same, but then two things happened. Resident Evil revelations and Kid Icarus. PSP has nothing close to either of those games.

[magash]

The PS2 and 3DS seem about even from what I've played. The 3DS has the shader stuff, but the best of the PS2 library seems to have produced more in terms of polycount, although, that's considering the stuff made five years or more into the PS2's life, not really fair to compare it now.

An apt comparison will be to compare MGS2 to MGS3D or Tekken Tag tournament to Tekken 3DS etc. If one wants to make a fair comparison then compare launch/1st generation ps2 games to 3DS games.

[orioto]

The PS2 and 3DS seem about even from what I've played. The 3DS has the shader stuff, but the best of the PS2 library seems to have produced more in terms of polycount, although, that's considering the stuff made five years or more into the PS2's life, not really fair to compare it now.

The whole 3ds style is all about making things look good with a pretty low polycount. That's why i wouldn't be surprised if the WiiU makes the same choice and the Zelda demo is exactly that, but it seems there are some evidences that it will at least be capable of better geometry or rez/framerate than actual consoles. We'll see.

At least i can be sure of one thing. if in the end it's the lowest geometry deal, despite the obviously more powerfull components, that'll be the fault of some features of the console.

[fernoca]

The whole 3ds style is all about making things look good with a pretty low polycount. That's why i wouldn't be surprised if the WiiU makes the same choice and the Zelda demo is exactly that, but it seems there are some evidences that it will at least be capable of better geometry or rez/framerate than actual consoles. We'll see. At least i can be sure of one thing. if in the end it's the lowest geometry deal, despite the obviously more powerfull components, that'll be the fault of some features of the console.

Yeah, I remember some talking about the Wii U Zelda demo been basically Gamecube/Wii Twilight Princess assets with better effects and stuff; but not sure if it was confirmed or denied.

[Thunder Monkey]

I honestly don't get where the confusion is coming from.

I never demanded that the WiiU be a powerhouse. I'm perfectly fine with it being a meager jump over the PS3/360.

My issue comes from those that believe a console with 3-4x the memory, a GPU with at the minimum 2x the ALU count, with potentially 3x the eDram could somehow just be on par, or weaker than either the PS3 or 360.

That is my issue. It was never going to be a powerhouse, at best it was always going to be a half-step console. At the best.

[Fabrik]

I used to think the same, but then two things happened. Resident Evil revelations and Kid Icarus. PSP has nothing close to either of those games.

I wasn't sure because I never owned a PSP. The 2 most impressive games on PSP were Daxter and God of War right? After watching some gameplay of both on Youtube (Is it the youtube effect or was the framerate of both games slightly janky?), yeah KI is smoother/prettier. So if Wii U follows suit, which means PS3 level graphics with added shine, I'm perfectly fine with that. I mean look at the Last of Us or Uncharted already!

[soulassssns]

It will be better than the Wii and that is good enough for me.

[Guilty Bystander]

In the same way that the Power4 architecture that was the original basis of the PS3/360's CPU was originally designed in 2001. Or if you prefer a more modern example: Vita. It's one sexy piece of kit. With a CPU designed in 2008 and a GPU designed in 2009. I haven't yet met anyone that's called it a piece of crap, hardware-wise at least, even if I'm not a fan of its analog sticks. Sony could've chosen newer models of PowerVR (Rogue was available to to be licensed) for example, but chose the SGX543 instead.

Stop that bs! The Xenon and Cell PPE uses a specialised Power PC 603 as a basis with a long but narrow pipeline (21 stages), SMT and high end vector units (VMX128 for Xenon and VMX for Cell). A tripple core Power4 with 3 VMX128s would be atleast 400 million transistors which is much more than 165 million transistors of the Xenon.

Power VR Rogue isn't ready for mass production so there's no way it could have been in the PS Vita. The SGX543MP4+ was the best Sony could do because the SGX543MP8 and MP16 use too much power and gets too hot. Also the ARM Cortex A9MP4 (quad core) is a much better CPU than the Xenon and Cell in anything but floating point. PS Vita technically is a very impressive piece of hardware especially considering it's price.

[Fabrik]

Stop that bs! The Xenon and Cell PPE uses a specialised Power PC 603 as a basis with a long but narrow pipeline (21 stages), SMT and high end vector units (VMX128 for Xenon and VMX for Cell). A tripple core Power4 with 3 VMX128s would be atleast 400 million transistors which is much more than 165 million transistors of the Xenon. Power VR Rogue isn't ready for mass production so there's no way it could have been in the PS Vita. The SGX543MP4+ was the best Sony could do because the SGX543MP8 and MP16 use too much power and gets too hot. Also the ARM Cortex A9MP4 (quad core) is a much better CPU than the Xenon and Cell in anything but floating point. PS Vita technically is a very impressive piece of hardware especially considering it's price.

I agree with everything you said even though I didn't understand a thing! :-)

[bangai-o]

if someone could just release some screenshots then it would help gaf calm down a bit.

[KageMaru]

In regards to the 3DS vs PS2 (why is this being discussed again?), it probably comes down to the ps2 having a higher peak poly count where 3DS has better shader support and textures thanks to the extra memory.

Both have their own strengths and it's rare that one system will outclass another in every category when it's usually a game of trade-offs when designing these systems.