[Thanasis Deitus]

Technical issues wasn't the problem with Too Human, it was the poor gameplay design and the bland characters, that's not Epic's fault. We speak english in Canada as a first language. Too Human was a 360 only game. There is no way Epic could have guaranteed high review scores and amazing sales, it was a ridiculous lawsuit to begin with and SK got what they had coming.

Way to take my post out of context.

The Unreal Engine was poorly supported in its early years, and it had a negative effect on many games. Several Unreal Engine 3 games had to be repeatedly delayed during development, and when they eventually released were fraught with technical issues. Many developers have publicly stated that the Engine was poorly supported and documented, especially for developers who don't natively speak English.

Why you assumed any of this was directly talking about Too Human is beyond me. I was explaining that other games were impacted by poor support of the Unreal Engine 3 in the early years. I specifically did not mention the development of Too Human here.

Not all of these other games encountered the exact same issues as Too Human did, but the development of many games was impacted negatively. Just because Silicon Knights is the only one suing, doesn't mean they are the only one impacted.


Whether Too Human specifically would have been a successful game is not really the interesting part of the case. This would obviously have had an impact on the potential damages awarded, but not on whether any damages were merited. What I wanted answered was when Epic licensed an, at the time, incomplete engine to developers on the agreement that the finished engine would be delivered at a specified date, and the deadline was missed... should Epic be accountable for that? When Epic did not properly document the use of the Engine so that the customer was properly able to use the engine, should Epic be held accountable? When part of the agreement stated that Epic employees would provide direct technical support for using an incomplete engine, and then said employees were not made available for support, should Epic be held accountable? Unfortunately, these questions did not seem to get answered. Or maybe they were, but it got buried under the headline of Dyack is dumb and gets punished for it. I don't know I didn't read the full brief, and neither will most people.

Honestly, I could not care less if Dyack ever saw a cent from this case, and I definitely didn't want them to take Epic down. Though there were many flaws in the Unreal Engine 3, it allowed a lot of games be made that otherwise wouldn't have been. But that doesn't mean Epic didn't make a few missteps. But it looks like this case will be remembered as a developer of an unpopular game challenges a generally well liked developer, and gets punished for not having a good legal team. Oh well.

[jmdajr]

So SK sued Epic and now they owe them millions? Well that didnt work too well!

[elcranky]

Technical issues wasn't the problem with Too Human, it was the poor gameplay design and the bland characters, that's not Epic's fault. ?

This is just incorrect. Too Human probably has the BEST gameplay design of any game this gen, specifically the combat engine and design. Too human had its issues, however game play was definitely not one of them.

[midonnay]

So SK sued Epic and now they owe them millions? Well that didnt work too well!

epic failure? *boom tish*

[Maxim726X]

This is just incorrect. Too Human probably has the BEST gameplay design of any game this gen, specifically the combat engine and design. Too human had its issues, however game play was definitely not one of them.

What?? That's a huge, huge stretch... I thought the gameplay was actually pretty awful.

[GodfatherX]

This is just incorrect. Too Human probably has the BEST gameplay design of any game this gen, specifically the combat engine and design. Too human had its issues, however game play was definitely not one of them.

it had possibly my least favorite combat engine of any action game I've played this gen, granted I only played the demo, but the whole "sliding" mechanic was very jarring to me

[Curufinwe]

This is just incorrect. Too Human probably has the BEST gameplay design of any game this gen, specifically the combat engine and design. Too human had its issues, however game play was definitely not one of them.

Utterly bizarre.

[XANDER CAGE]

This is just incorrect. Too Human probably has the BEST gameplay design of any game this gen, specifically the combat engine and design. Too human had its issues, however game play was definitely not one of them.

Nnnnnnnno, if anything it had an interesting look and cool premise and had mostly gameplay related issues.

[Ra\/en]

wait. Silicon Knights is funded by the Canadian government?

Who the heck authorized that? what a terrible idea!!!!

As a Canadian, I am dismayed. Silicon Knights is a joke. Fund a worthwhile company. Dyack ruined his company. While I feel bad for the people who got laid off, I can not believe that the Canadian government chose to fund them.


Anybody got a link?

[Loofy]

wait. Silicon Knights is funded by the Canadian government? Who the heck authorized that? what a terrible idea!!!! As a Canadian, I am dismayed. Silicon Knights is a joke. Fund a worthwhile company. Dyack ruined his company. While I feel bad for the people who got laid off, I can not believe that the Canadian government chose to fund them. Anybody got a link?

Looking at it now maybe they didnt.

http://www.joystiq.com/2012/03/28/si...canadas-money/

[elcranky]

it had possibly my least favorite combat engine of any action game I've played this gen, granted I only played the demo, but the whole "sliding" mechanic was very jarring to me

Lots of people were turned off by the unusual control scheme and never gave it a chance. Once you got over the hump of your inexperience with the sysem, so to speak, the combat shone. Sliding was glorious. Berzerker class showed the combat system to its best. Out of the ~75 games that I have played since the 360 launched, there here hasn't even been a close second this gen for most fun combat experience compared to a high level cyberzerker.

[Ra\/en]

Looking at it now maybe they didnt. http://www.joystiq.com/2012/03/28/si...canadas-money/

Well.. that's good. Thanks for finding that. I guess I could have used google.

[Dipswitch]

This is just incorrect. Too Human probably has the BEST gameplay design of any game this gen, specifically the combat engine and design. Too human had its issues, however game play was definitely not one of them.

Its definately a stretch to say it had the BEST gameplay design this gen, but I found it fun. Loot mechanics made it quite addictive gameplay-wise.

[LuchaShaq]

This is just incorrect. Too Human probably has the BEST gameplay design of any game this gen, specifically the combat engine and design. Too human had its issues, however game play was definitely not one of them.

I'm assuming you either work at SK or are trolling with that post. The combat was essentially close your eyes mash on the right stick a bunch until you/the enemies were dead.

[ProfessorMoran]

This is just incorrect. Too Human probably has the BEST gameplay design of any game this gen, specifically the combat engine and design. Too human had its issues, however game play was definitely not one of them.

The combat engine and design were pretty terrible.

[Visualante2]

Dayum shame if they get shut down because of a stupid court case. Maybe it was an all or nothing kind of play and they will just declare bankruptcy and default on the damages?

[Bowdz]

it had possibly my least favorite combat engine of any action game I've played this gen, granted I only played the demo, but the whole "sliding" mechanic was very jarring to me

Strong this. I literally burst out laughing the first time I played the demo the second Baldur started flying from enemy to enemy, flailing his sword as his wrist convulsed. Too Human went from being one of my most anticipated titles to a game I wouldn't ever purchase within seconds from the demo alone.

[ProfessorMoran]

Looking at it now maybe they didnt. http://www.joystiq.com/2012/03/28/si...canadas-money/

Well they still got a loan from the government, I wonder how close they are to running out of money.

[Jarmel]

This is just incorrect. Too Human probably has the BEST gameplay design of any game this gen, specifically the combat engine and design. Too human had its issues, however game play was definitely not one of them.

Oh lords.

[we.are.the.armada]

Didn't SK had this clear cut case? What happen\ edit, so all because they couldn't provide a damage estimate and the judge got mad? Oh damn

Got mad? This is failure of disclosure. They made wild accusations, wasted everybody's time and money involved, and when it came time to play litigation, SK didn't offer an ounce of computation. I'd love to get a proceeding that easy.

[elcranky]

I'm assuming you either work at SK or are trolling with that post. The combat was essentially close your eyes mash on the right stick a bunch until you/the enemies were dead.

And thus you demonstrate that you didn't play the game. There is quite a lot of depth to the game. The only class the really pinballed much was the zerker and even there was considerable tactical depth.

[jcm]

Got mad? This is failure of disclosure. They made wild accusations, wasted everybody's time and money involved, and when it came time to play litigation, SK didn't offer an ounce of computation. I'd love to get a proceeding that easy.

They did provide computation. It was excluded. The ruling is fairly clear, if you'd like to have a look.

If you're interested in all the gory details of why the expert's method was invalid, you can read this. The relevant portion is under the title "Misapplication of Reliable Methodology Results in Exclusion of Testimony."

[Blunt]

Guess Silicon Knights will have to rely on their games being critically and financially successful to make money now.


Oh.

[Dead Man Typing]

So I'm guessing that Epic did deliver enough of an engine on time to satisfy the contracts.

And I suppose Too Human does have that Unreal Engine 3 look to it. I don't think it would've been too hard for Epic to prove SK's engine infringed on some of their intellectual property. Otherwise they wouldn't be getting $4.5M

So, why did SK pursue this case if these simple facts were already in their possession?

[LukasTaves]

This is just incorrect. Too Human probably has the BEST gameplay design of any game this gen, specifically the combat engine and design. Too human had its issues, however game play was definitely not one of them.

I don't think that even the creators of the game would believe this even in their wettest dreams XD

[NZNova]

So this is pretty much the end of Silicon Knights, I guess? I feel bad for the employees if that's the case.

[Xenon]

What?? That's a huge, huge stretch... I thought the gameplay was actually pretty awful.

it had possibly my least favorite combat engine of any action game I've played this gen, granted I only played the demo, but the whole "sliding" mechanic was very jarring to me

Utterly bizarre.

Nnnnnnnno, if anything it had an interesting look and cool premise and had mostly gameplay related issues.

While I wouldn't go as far as Elcranky, Too Human had terrific gameplay once you put the time in to learn it. It's controls were completely different than everything that came before it. The bigger problem was the fact that the demo and the full game did NOTHING to help gamers understand it's basics or the advance techniques to appreciate the gameplay.

One big problem that TH had to overcome, well besides DD's marketing suicide, was battling the public's need to shoehorn it into a pre-existing genre. It was called an action RPG. It was the closest thing that fit. Some people lumped it in with Diablo and other dungeon hacks. But the fact that it didn't play like whichever genre it was put into was considered a flaw in it's design. Couple this with it's unorthodox controller scheme and they created a major hurdle for most players to have to get past just to get to the point where the game could be enjoyable.

If I had to put a genre label on Too Human it would a Technique-Combat based Dungeon Crawl. The only game that is even close to it is Phantasy Star Online. While it is very rudimentary in comparison, it still had timing in its controls. Games like Diablo and its ilk were more decision based. Sure you could develop techniques to do things more efficiently but it was not built into the game like it is with Too Human and PSO. I know that some games are adding timing in strikes but it's more of a tacked on kind of thing than something that the game is completely designed around. The fact that Too Human was made it such a joy for me to play. Having a good fight in Too Human would give me the same satisfaction I would get from doing other similar things like pulling off a Dragon Punch combo or landing a sick move in a snowboarding game. It's a feeling that is missing for me in most of the other Dungeon Hacks I've played.

[IdreamofHIME]

Good thing SK made that Xmen game to get some quick cash.

[DrForester]

from the op:

The suit, initially filed in July 2007, claimed Epic Games used funds earned from licensing costs for its Unreal Engine 3 to fund development of Gears of War, rather than pay for improvements to the widely distributed engine.

There a quick explanation as to why Silicon Knights was even involved in this?

[eastmen]

They will apeal and sue and try to get the case moved to another court

[maxcer0081]

So I'm guessing that Epic did deliver enough of an engine on time to satisfy the contracts. And I suppose Too Human does have that Unreal Engine 3 look to it. I don't think it would've been too hard for Epic to prove SK's engine infringed on some of their intellectual property. Otherwise they wouldn't be getting $4.5M So, why did SK pursue this case if these simple facts were already in their possession?

who knows, it seems like a last ditch effort. why would you go to court and risk that much when your company is taking out loans and looking for government grants? SK is probably going to close up shop soon.

[Plywood]

I feel sorry for Dyack and for anyone currently working at Silicon Knights. :/

[Doodis]

I love Too Human. This whole mess makes me sad that we're even less likely to get a sequel now.

[dragonelite]

Dat canadian tax dollars...
hnnnggg

[AlphaTwo00]

Well they still got a loan from the government, I wonder how close they are to running out of money.

Dat canadian tax dollars... hnnnggg

GOD DAMNIT. READ.

There was no loan. There was no funding.

At one point, SK did get a special Digital Media grant, which was based, IIRC, two separate things: 1) for R&D technology, and for 2)opening a new branch office and hiring more people. #2 was definitely retracted as they did cut a bunch of people late last year/early this year. I'm not sure about #1, but even though, the funding was given based on technology delivery.

Don't get your panties up in a bunch. Ontario and Canadian government gives funding to all sorts of projects that may or may not pan out, and funding is never based on "profitable" or "success" like how this forum sees it. (Funding to attract jobs, cultural development, etc)

[LOCK]

This is sad. For both parties.

[Mama Robotnik]

Did Silicon Knights hire Lionel Hutz?

[Halfmunch]

4.5 million dollars is an expensive lesson...

[XANDER CAGE]

Did Silicon Knights hire Lionel Hutz?

No, then they would have been entitled to two of the popsicles in the freezer if they won, instead of a dollar.

[darkwing]

So SK sued Epic and now they owe them millions? Well that didnt work too well!

I don't get this as well, counter-sued?

[Big-E]

Funniest possible outcome out of all of this. Sad in a way but quite funny.

[OdysseusVA]

I don't get this as well, counter-sued?

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/20...hts-court-case

Silicon Knights will have to pay Epic $4.45 million in damages after the jury found in favour of its counter claims. The court ruled that Silicon Knights breached their Unreal license agreement, misappropriated Epic's trade secrets and infringed Epic's copyrights in the Unreal Engine 3 code. Epic also has 30 days to file a request for reimbursement of all attorneys' fees and costs.

[Cheerilee]

$4.5 million is chump change. Too Human supposedly cost over $60 million (although that includes aborted attempts at PSX/Gamecube games), and Dyack's decision to make his own Silicon Knights Engine (which was 100% based on UE3, and swapped out piece by piece) supposedly cost around $10 million by itself.

There a quick explanation as to why Silicon Knights was even involved in this?

Too Human (based on Unreal Engine 3) got laughed out of it's first E3 showing while Gears of War won game of show. SK got butthurt and accused Epic of taking their UE3 licensing money and spending it on GoW, instead of spending it on UE3 improvements. Time to stop paying your bills and build a new game engine and sue for millions! It turns out that Epic really was spending UE3 royalty money on making UE3 better.

[REMEMBER CITADEL]

Too Human (based on Unreal Engine 3) got laughed out of it's first E3 showing while Gears of War won game of show. SK got butthurt and accused Epic of taking their UE3 licensing money and spending it on GoW, instead of spending it on UE3 improvements. Time to stop paying your bills and build a new game engine and sue for millions! It turns out that Epic really was spending UE3 royalty money on making UE3 better.

Epic has allegedly convinced SK that UE3 would be able to handle dozens of AI characters on screen at once, which is what they needed for Too Human. At the time it couldn't handle that, and the updates were slow so they had to rewrite most of the engine (or all of it, as they claim). The only other UE3 game that attempted something similar back then, The Last Remnant, was a mess on the 360 - and that had turn-based combat.

[Aklamarth]

(which was 100% based on UE3, and swapped out piece by piece)

Hahaha, that's funny.

[blu]

$4.5 million is chump change. Too Human supposedly cost over $60 million (although that includes aborted attempts at PSX/Gamecube games), and Dyack's decision to make his own Silicon Knights Engine (which was 100% based on UE3, and swapped out piece by piece) supposedly cost around $10 million by itself.

While many engine deals allow/support customisations by the client, it does not exactly speak positively of your engine when your clients have to eventually gut it to the last nit to get it to be useful. Just saying.

[Cheerilee]

Epic has allegedly convinced SK that UE3 would be able to handle dozens of AI characters on screen at once, which is what they needed for Too Human. At the time it couldn't handle that, and the updates were slow so they had to rewrite most of the engine (or all of it, as they claim). The only other UE3 game that attempted something similar back then, The Last Remnant, was a mess on the 360 - and that had turn-based combat.

UE3 may have overadvertised/underdelivered, but it apparently met it's specific contractual demands, otherwise SK would've sued for that and won.

Dyack had a meltdown and SK alleged that their money was making GOW look good, and SK sued for "all the GoW profits" instead of actual damages, which was probably why they lost.

[JonathanPower]

I don't think it was so much that they weren't following the process as it was they were really slow. I imagine they were trying to come up with estimates, and they simply didn't meet any of the deadlines the judge had set. Either way, it was was a major gaffe on the part of the legal team, but I don't think they were just screwing around. That being said, I can't say I'm pleased with the outcome of this. The fact of the matter is, Silicon Knights had a point. The Unreal Engine was poorly supported in its early years, and it had a negative effect on many games. Several Unreal Engine 3 games had to be repeatedly delayed during development, and when they eventually released were fraught with technical issues. Many developers have publicly stated that the Engine was poorly supported and documented, especially for developers who don't natively speak English. Not to mention, for an engine intended for multiplatform support, it was notorious for causing all sorts of issues on the PS3 early on. It would be impossible to determine how much of the issues encountered were a result of the engine, and how many were just natural development issues, amplified by the difficulty in developing HD games without evidence one way or another, but certainly some of it could be blamed on the engine. I would say that quite a number of developers can trace missed deadlines leading to funding issues, and technical problems resulting in lower review scores and loss of sales directly to how the UE3 was (or wasn't) supported. Now whether Epic is actually liable for any of that is another issue. Surely it would depend on how the contracts were worded. But this case could have interesting implications for the state of licensed engines. Instead we get: "Dyack is crazy, his lawyers are bad, Epic laughs." What a disappointing conclusion.

If I remember correctly, what SK complained about was that when Gears of War was developed, Epic didn't want to share the customized engine of Gears to the other developers, and so they couldn't use the very optimized Gears engine for Too Human.

[Mael]

The real shame in this whole thing is not that SK lost or owe money.
But more that the discussion about the liability of a contractor vis-a-vis of its customers will be messed up by how Epic have won because Epic doesn't SUXXX like SK because Too Human was not what it was hyped to be.
Heck for what it's worth the whole thing was handled poorly on SK's side and just shows how unprofessional the whole gig really is.

[feint_ruled]

If you're interested in all the gory details of why the expert's method was invalid, you can read this. The relevant portion is under the title "Misapplication of Reliable Methodology Results in Exclusion of Testimony."

That link is very interesting. Their expert really did a poor job! Basically his calculations were that Too Human would have sold 2.5 million copies it if had released a year earlier because... well because other games released that year had sold 2.5 million (e.g. Mass Effect, a whole different genre!)
And then he rolled in the fact that the lost year meant they didn't have time to develop and release a sequel which could have sold... you guessed it - 2.5 million copies! (guess that is his lucky number)