[D4Danger]

Wow, so according to him desktop is just an "app" within Metro? :lol So wrong and so stupid.

isn't that how Microsoft described it?

[yn-neko hates a cat]

An article demonstrating why Windows 8 will be a massive failure for Microsoft. Expect this sort of thing to become commonplace in the next six months or so.

This is a classic example of a writer who has already made up their mind and is looking for reasons. You can see there's an express failure to establish cause and effect.

It's an opinion validation piece for those who have already formed an opinion agreeing with the author. It may as well be a top ten list with no further words and it still would have read with the same level of coherence.

[ymmv]

An article demonstrating why Windows 8 will be a massive failure for Microsoft. Expect this sort of thing to become commonplace in the next six months or so.

There already plenty of negative previews of MS' new OS:

PC Makers' Hopes For Windows 8 Ebb

Why Windows 8 is terrible for desktops

Windows 8 belongs on older PCs like a fish needs a bicycle

Early Reviews Of Microsoft's Windows 8 Are Not Good

It just goes on and on and the tide of negativity will only rise when the official release date looms closer. MS' biggest problems is that a large number of their biggest supporters won't support an OS that pushes a tablet OS down the throat of desktop users. They want all the niceties of Windows 8 without having to use Metro. And they're absolutely right.

Metro works on tablets but it should have been completely optional for desktop users. MS wouldn't listen however, they're so desperate to win back the tablet market from Apple and Google that they made it the central innovation of their desktop os (where it had no place) It's a huge gamble, if Metro fails (and it looks that way), it could take down their OS business with them. It could become a bigger failture than anything they've ever created.

Personally I hope this damn Frankenstein completely implodes on the market, taking down everyone responsible for this monstrosity. I've been a MS fan for 20 years, always the first on the block to install a new Windows OS, but I hate hate hate what MS has done with Windows 8. Get that fucking Metro crap away from my desktop OS.

[Mr_Zombie]

isn't that how Microsoft described it?

I don't know. But if they did, they certainly don't understand it the same way this guy does.
From my understanding, Metro looks more like an overlay to desktop. The desktop is still there, running beneath Metro all the time.

Also, this made me laugh:

But the search function rarely finds what you want - it will only search within Metro apps, and you have to specify the app you want to search in separately.

If you’re using Metro apps, there is no clock

How can you lie so blatantly to your readers?

[Azih]

It's a huge gamble, if Metro fails (and it looks that way), it could take down their OS business with them.

Well no, people will just stay with Windows 7 in that case.

I think the criticism of Win 8 on desktop machines is overblown but the positive noises the Lenovo is making on Windows 8 shows that the O/S is pretty much directly aimed at tablet/laptop hybrids seeking to compete with tablets and designed to be attractive to app developers. If that is the next big growth segment than Windows 8 will do gangbusters business (and MS will have anticipated the market Apple style rather than follow along with a me-too product). If people on enterprise and/or desktop stick with 7 then I don't think MS would be particularly unhappy about that.

[Mr_Zombie]

It's a huge gamble, if Metro fails (and it looks that way), it could take down their OS business with them. It could become a bigger failture than anything they've ever created.

Even if Win8 fails, people will just stay on Windows 7, just like they stayed on XP when Vista was universally panned. There's a reason people won't abandon Windows - the legacy programs. You don't simply change your OS of choice and forget about all those applications you own (games included) and all those applications you've been using for years just because one version of OS failed to meet expectations.

[ymmv]

Well no, people will just stay with Windows 7 in that case.

Businesses will stay with XP or Win7, power users could stay with Win7 or choose Linux. Consumers are the most fickle consumers: they could skip Windows 8 entirely and choose Apple when Windows 8 gets an even worse rep than Vista. That category doesn't need an actual PC, they're tablet users and most of them would rather have an iPad than anything else.

[D4Danger]

I don't know. But if they did, they certainly don't understand it the same way this guy does. From my understanding, Metro looks more like an overlay to desktop. The desktop is still there, running beneath Metro all the time.

I could be wrong but I'm sure Microsoft were pushing people to think of the desktop as just another app. Anyway, it doesn't matter.

Even if Win8 fails, people will just stay on Windows 7, just like they stayed on XP when Vista was universally panned. There's a reason people won't abandon Windows - the legacy programs. You don't simply change your OS of choice and forget about all those applications you own (games included) and all those applications you've been using for years just because one version of OS failed to meet expectations.

I'm happy enough with 7 and I get the feeling it's going to be around for a good while so there's no fear of developers dropping supporting before Windows 9 comes out. I can wait it out.

[mrklaw]

Businesses will stay with XP or Win7, power users could stay with Win7 or choose Linux. Consumers are the most fickle consumers: they could skip Windows 8 entirely and choose Apple when Windows 8 gets an even worse rep than Vista. That category doesn't need an actual PC, they're tablet users and most of them would rather have an iPad than anything else.

They'd release a quick fix after 12-18 months, pushing metro into the background more, so it'd be like windows media centre, adoption you can use when appropriate.

I assume from the negative comments so far that I shouldn't be in any hurry to 'upgrade' my new laptop to windows 8, but just sit it out and see what happens?

[brotkasten]

I could be wrong but I'm sure Microsoft were pushing people to think of the desktop as just another app. Anyway, it doesn't matter.

Blah blah, the desktop is just an app blah The code literally won't load blah blah

is what they said. I'll find the exact wording when I'm at my PC.

[dLMN8R]

It is true - the Desktop doesn't use any resources until you run it for the first time after boot. Conceptually, it's an app, and works very similar to other apps on the system. It of course can do a lot more than other apps, since it enables full backwards compatibility.

Think of it like Windows 95. Windows 95 was essentially just a shell on top of DOS, but once you booted Windows, you loaded DOS as an "application" inside of Windows. In actuality, that "app" was simply a window into the underlying OS that was running everything.

[LukasTaves]

It is true - the Desktop doesn't use any resources until you run it for the first time after boot. Conceptually, it's an app, and works very similar to other apps on the system. It of course can do a lot more than other apps, since it enables full backwards compatibility. Think of it like Windows 95. Windows 95 was essentially just a shell on top of DOS, but once you booted Windows, you loaded DOS as an "application" inside of Windows. In actuality, that "app" was simply a window into the underlying OS that was running everything.

Is this really true? If i start the desktop rigth when the Pc starts i can see if the desktop was not loaded it... But if i leave the pc for a while when i click the desktop it's instantly there, everything loaded...

But i only started noticing that after starting a few drivers, so maybe they are the ones causing this...

[brotkasten]

"And if you want to stay permanently immersed in that Metro world, you will never see the desktop—we won’t even load it (literally the code will not be loaded) unless you explicitly choose to go there! This is Windows reimagined."

Or unless you want to change some settings that aren't available in the Metro style control panel.

[DrFurbs]

So what's the verdict from those who've been running it a while? Is it a good upgrade for a PC from W7? I understand it will take a little getting used to but from what I read its faster, lighter and more secure. Surely this is a good thing.

[Mr_Zombie]

If you can get used to the Start Screen, charms and pieces of "the modern UI" showing here and there, Windows 8 is worth upgrading to. It's faster, lighter and better looking.

[PSGames]

So what's the verdict from those who've been running it a while? Is it a good upgrade for a PC from W7? I understand it will take a little getting used to but from what I read its faster, lighter and more secure. Surely this is a good thing.

I love it. Have it installed on a Sony vaio laptop and an Acer Tablet with out many problems.

[Karak]

If you can get used to the Start Screen, charms and pieces of "the modern UI" showing here and there, Windows 8 is worth upgrading to. It's faster, lighter and better looking.

My response exactly. I agree and once I got accustomed to it I really dig it big time.

I will add that the negative comments I keep seeing seems completely disconnected to my own experience. I mean, I get different opinions and uses for a computer but 8 really is fucking phenomenal so far. Could possibly be just TOO much of a change versus really bad change.

[Jzero]

If you can get used to the Start Screen, charms and pieces of "the modern UI" showing here and there, Windows 8 is worth upgrading to. It's faster, lighter and better looking.

Agreed. You can install the RP in a virtual machine or dual boot to try it out.

[f0lken]

So what's the verdict from those who've been running it a while? Is it a good upgrade for a PC from W7? I understand it will take a little getting used to but from what I read its faster, lighter and more secure. Surely this is a good thing.

I had the RC since launch, then I returned to Win7 just to see how much would I like it after Win8 and quickly returned to 8 once the RTM was ready, I just like it so much

[ConvenientBox]

I like win8, though some things do bother me. When in the desktop environment, metro apps shouldn't be referenced at all. Example, I was looking at some photos, and when you view them it loads up the metro interface. It's annoying, but fixable.

My 11inch core solo acer notebook runs the OS perfectly, faster than windows 7 for sure.

[barkers crest]

So what's the verdict from those who've been running it a while? Is it a good upgrade for a PC from W7? I understand it will take a little getting used to but from what I read its faster, lighter and more secure. Surely this is a good thing.

My gamedev laptop is set to dual boot both 7 and 8 and I think I'll be in 8 exclusively from here on out unless there are any critical application incompatibilities.

I let my father-in-law try it out the other day and he is ready to replace his desktop and laptop with touch screen devices. I had to coach him a bit on some things because he wanted to press Escape quite often to get out of things but other than that he picked things up quickly. He also needed to be coached a bit on getting the cursor all the way into the physical corners of the screen.

I think the keys to liking Windows 8 involve knowing the following:

• WinKey + D
• Move cursor to the all the way corner of the screens.
• Understanding how to use the search.
• Where the shutdown command was moved to.
• Pin to taskbar.
• Alt + Tab

Once you have those down the OS is a breeze to use.

The fast startup from a cold boot still gets me every time.

I like win8, though some things do bother me. When in the desktop environment, metro apps shouldn't be referenced at all. Example, I was looking at some photos, and when you view them it loads up the metro interface. It's annoying, but fixable. My 11inch core solo acer notebook runs the OS perfectly, faster than windows 7 for sure.

Actually, now that you reminded me...pdf documents and images loading in metro apps from the desktop is pretty annoying.

[brotkasten]

On that note, I have to say I prefer Win + Tab over Alt + Tab in Windows 8.

[ConvenientBox]

Actually, now that you reminded me...pdf documents and images loading in metro apps from the desktop is pretty annoying.

I mean, you can easily fix it, but someone like my mom wouldn't know how unless I did it for her. You can always change the "open with" command and be metro free.

[Izick]

Having the active apps bar pop-up by moving the cursor to the upper-left corner, right near where browser tabs are is the absolute worst thing ever. Holy shit, can I turn that off?

[dLMN8R]

Is this really true? If i start the desktop rigth when the Pc starts i can see if the desktop was not loaded it... But if i leave the pc for a while when i click the desktop it's instantly there, everything loaded... But i only started noticing that after starting a few drivers, so maybe they are the ones causing this...

It's still possible to register startup applications with the system, which will therefore load the Desktop. So...

1) Some of those startup applications may be set to "delayed start", which is why you might not see them load right away

2) Even if some startup applications load, there are still graphical resources that don't load until they're needed, like the art resources used to render your background, icons, etc.

[Jzero]

Having the active apps bar pop-up by moving the cursor to the upper-left corner, right near where browser tabs are is the absolute worst thing ever. Holy shit, can I turn that off?

I don't think so. You might try closing the apps you're not using though.

At this point I think for testing in a VM it's probably better to get the Enterprise 90-day trial rather than the RP, since the Enterprise trial is RTM.

Ah yea totally forgot about that version.

[Kagami]

Agreed. You can install the RP in a virtual machine or dual boot to try it out.

At this point I think for testing in a VM it's probably better to get the Enterprise 90-day trial rather than the RP, since the Enterprise trial is RTM.

[barkers crest]

On that note, I have to say I prefer Win + Tab over Alt + Tab in Windows 8.

Ah thanks. Nice tip. I like the vertical alignment much more than horizontal.

[teh_pwn]

So what's the verdict from those who've been running it a while? Is it a good upgrade for a PC from W7? I understand it will take a little getting used to but from what I read its faster, lighter and more secure. Surely this is a good thing.

For home use: Yes
For hardcore development that hasn't adhered to MS's UAC: No

Why? "run administrator in admin approval mode" is required to run metro apps. But "run administrator in admin approval mode" makes you're Admin account a second class Admin account which causes Admin level apps to do things in the real admin account. So say you mount a network drive using an admin command. Does it show up in your admin account's explorer? Nope. UAC is dumb.

I understand *why* MS is forcing UAC so that developers put user files in user account paths and to improve security. I just don't care for internal development.

Also enterprise heavy installations basically take a shit in All Apps making it very difficult to find stuff if you don't know the name, so software will have to be redesigned for 8. It isn't a free ride like Vista to 7.

Microsoft was also kind enough not to support a full reboot to install device drivers, so I recommend creating a run command to shutdown -r and pin it to your start screen so you can reboot without physically having to power back on.

I feel like for software development Windows 8 installs incomplete. You have to mod it to make it work correctly. But these things don't impact consumers, so maybe SP1 or Windows 9 will fix these issues for "Developers, developers, developers". Got to chase that pot of Apple gold for now.

[brotkasten]

Speaking of mods:

In a recent forum post, Neowin member 'Fred 69' has found a way to boot directly to the desktop, without using any third party app. It's a built in Windows feature, although it's not an obvious one. The feature is hidden somewhere between the folder options. All you have to do is to go to options in any Explorer window, choose the 'view' tab and click on 'Restore previous folder windows at log-on'. The system will boot to the desktop at startup, but only if you leave an explorer window open at shutdown. It's still a great way if you don't want to use special software, such as Stardock's Start8.

[Steelyuhas]

Speaking of mods:

People shutting down computers...in 2012.

[CharlieDigital]

People shutting down computers...in 2012.

Yes. Because all hardware has a limited lifetime before failure (usually the mean time between failure or MTBF). Turning off electronics when not in use maximizes the lifetime of your hardware which I generally don't care much about except for my SSDs/HDDs.

Anecdotal, but I had three Sandforce based SSDs in three different laptops (two of the the same model, the other was a 13" version of the same model) with three different users. Other two users never shut their laptops off. Both of their SSDs bricked within 2 months of each other at about the 1 year mark. My SSD -- same exact model purchased at roughly the same time -- still chugging even though I make heavy use of it with VM read/writes.

[Technosteve]

if i buy a second monitor can i force metro on to one monitor and glorious desktop on another?

[dLMN8R]

if i buy a second monitor can i force metro on to one monitor and glorious desktop on another?

The lower-left corner of every monitor works, and you can also activate the charms on any monitor. The start screen and apps will show up on whatever monitor you do that action on.

Also, when you click/drag from the top of the screen, as if you were dragging down to close, or dragging to the side to dock, you can also drag to another monitor to move the monitor an app is open on.

[Jzero]

The lower-left corner of every monitor works, and you can also activate the charms on any monitor. The start screen and apps will show up on whatever monitor you do that action on. Also, when you click/drag from the top of the screen, as if you were dragging down to close, or dragging to the side to dock, you can also drag to another monitor to move the monitor an app is open on.

It's too bad you can't force it to stay when you click the other monitor though.

[StudioTan]

The lower-left corner of every monitor works, and you can also activate the charms on any monitor. The start screen and apps will show up on whatever monitor you do that action on. Also, when you click/drag from the top of the screen, as if you were dragging down to close, or dragging to the side to dock, you can also drag to another monitor to move the monitor an app is open on.

You can also use Win + PgUP or Win + PgDn to move Metro to different monitors.

[dLMN8R]

It's too bad you can't force it to stay when you click the other monitor though.

Well I mean, the chosen monitor stays the same after you select it once. So you can "force" it by simply not clicking the corner or start charm on another monitor. What are you suggesting that's different?

[Beautifully Shaped Monsters]

People shutting down computers...in 2012.

I don't see why this is so shocking? I switch off my computer when I leave home or when I go to work. I see no reason to use sleep.

But then, my Windows 7 partition (and Ubuntu partition) boots to desktop pretty much instantaneously once it's past the BIOS screen.

[Jzero]

Well I mean, the chosen monitor stays the same after you select it once. So you can "force" it by simply not clicking the corner or start charm on another monitor. What are you suggesting that's different?

Sometimes i don't have anything on my other monitor and i wish i could just leave the metro start screen on the empty monitor.

[dLMN8R]

Oh, the Start Screen. Yeah, sadly you can't let that stick as a persistent dashboard. Gotta tap the start button if you want to see it.

[linkboy]

So what's the verdict from those who've been running it a while? Is it a good upgrade for a PC from W7? I understand it will take a little getting used to but from what I read its faster, lighter and more secure. Surely this is a good thing.

The OS is better than Windows 7, its a lot faster.

The problem is Metro, its going cause some people to have issues with it. Me personally, I don't like it (I've got my computer setup so I hardly use Metro, it works for me).

Even with Metro, Windows 8 is totally worth it.

[dLMN8R]

There's undoubtedly a huge learning curve, and unfortunately there's been absolutely no PR or education of any sort so far to ease people into it. That will be changing significantly long before GA rolls around, but ideally it would've been in place once the MSDN access went live last week :-/

[rozay]

There's undoubtedly a huge learning curve, and unfortunately there's been absolutely no PR or education of any sort so far to ease people into it. That will be changing significantly long before GA rolls around, but ideally it would've been in place once the MSDN access went live last week :-/

Did you guys ever consider a welcome/"look here for help" tile on the default start screen? It's probably better that the OS doesn't have a long tutorial upon installation but some folks might need more than the 1 tip about the hot corners given in the RTM's introduction.

[Sporran]

We now have the RTM version of a few machines, have to say this fisher price os has no place in the enterprise!

Runs sweet on a latitude st but thats about it.

[dLMN8R]

Did you guys ever consider a welcome/"look here for help" tile on the default start screen? It's probably better that the OS doesn't have a long tutorial upon installation but some folks might need more than the 1 tip about the hot corners given in the RTM's introduction.

I have no idea what actual plans are but it would be smart to have an app pre-installed on in-store kiosk machines that's a more extensive tutorial, and perhaps prominently in the Store or pre-installed by OEMs. Hopefully that ends up being the case.

[Kagami]

"run administrator in admin approval mode" is required to run metro apps. But "run administrator in admin approval mode" makes you're Admin account a second class Admin account which causes Admin level apps to do things in the real admin account. So say you mount a network drive using an admin command. Does it show up in your admin account's explorer? Nope. UAC is dumb.

Wait wait wait.
Are you saying W8 has effectively gone backwards to how things used to be in the XP days, when if you wanted to run a LUA as your work account you had to have a separate admin account with its own settings?
One of the great things about Vista/7 is the admin token stuff so you can start a program with either privilege level within one single account.

[teh_pwn]

Wait wait wait. Are you saying W8 has effectively gone backwards to how things used to be in the XP days, when if you wanted to run a LUA as your work account you had to have a separate admin account with its own settings? One of the great things about Vista/7 is the admin token stuff so you can start a program with either privilege level within one single account.

Eh, not sure what that means.

This admin approval policy existed before, but in Vista and 7 it was disabled when you put UAC at minimum settings. With 8, minimum UAC settings keeps this policy enabled. If you disable the policy explicitly, metro apps will bitch about UAC being disabled and will refuse to start.

If you keep the policy enabled and enter "subst M: C:\SomeFolder\" in an Admin command prompt and then go to M:\ in windows explorer, windows will return an error about M:\ not existing. But if you do the same thing in a non-admin command prompt, it will exist. The problem with this is that I use batch files that are invoked by admin programs, and other programs that depend on that subst working in windows explorer. I think the concept of an Admin user account not being actual Admin really non-intuitive and not very useful. So for now, I simply don't use metro apps until someone figures out how to correct this design flaw.

See the post starting with "Okay, here we go" to see how this policy impacts windows explorer in other ways
http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/w...1-d4fa9d41d2e0

Basically Microsoft made UAC mandatory.

[yn-neko hates a cat]

Eh, not sure what that means. This admin approval policy existed before, but in Vista and 7 it was disabled when you put UAC at minimum settings. With 8, minimum UAC settings keeps this policy enabled. If you disable the policy explicitly, metro apps will bitch about UAC being disabled and will refuse to start. If you keep the policy enabled and enter "subst M: C:\SomeFolder\" in an Admin command prompt and then go to M:\ in windows explorer, windows will return an error about M:\ not existing. But if you do the same thing in a non-admin command prompt, it will exist. The problem with this is that I use batch files that are invoked by admin programs, and other programs that depend on that subst working in windows explorer. I think the concept of an Admin user account not being actual Admin really non-intuitive and not very useful. So for now, I simply don't use metro apps until someone figures out how to correct this design flaw. See the post starting with "Okay, here we go" to see how this policy impacts windows explorer in other ways http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/w...1-d4fa9d41d2e0 Basically Microsoft made UAC mandatory.

Did you experience this in the consumer preview. I'm going to be installing W8 on my dev machine this weekend. I work with multiple processes that simulate web services when running debug and I'm worried this will be debilitating... I may have to not run metro on that machine if this becomes an issue for me.

[teh_pwn]

Did you experience this in the consumer preview. I'm going to be installing W8 on my dev machine this weekend. I work with multiple processes that simulate web services when running debug and I'm worried this will be debilitating... I may have to not run metro on that machine if this becomes an issue for me.

I talked to people at work that saw it with one of the previews. I'm using released.

I would either wait or use imaging software to backup whatever you have now to roll back.

I do like the improvements MS made to desktop, but I'm not sure I'd upgrade to 8 if I knew this last week. Then again, I need to know this OS eventually for other reasons.

[Kagami]

Eh, not sure what that means. This admin approval policy existed before, but in Vista and 7 it was disabled when you put UAC at minimum settings. With 8, minimum UAC settings keeps this policy enabled. If you disable the policy explicitly, metro apps will bitch about UAC being disabled and will refuse to start.

Ah ok, so this is something peculiar to drive mapping (and is the same in 7, but without the Metro app problem when disabling UAC to work around it).

I misunderstood your post to mean (on an admin account with UAC active) they had done something which caused all win32 programs running with a normal token to behave as if they had a different user profile from those running with an admin token in the same account, which made me think of the bad old days.