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PS4 Rumors , APU code named 'Liverpool' Radeon HD 7970 GPU Steamroller CPU 16GB Flash

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There is no specific best time for Sony to launch. The best time is whenever MS launches. As close to then as possible, if not before.

That's the best time. Rather than a vague "2014-2015 is better". Which it's not.
 

Averon

Member
Not surprised 3rd parties are getting antsy about new consoles. The past E3 was a sure sign of that with several companies showing blatantly obvious next-gen stuff despite not being able to confirm it.
 

Massa

Member
The big publishers had plans in motion for a new Xbox launch this year.

I don't know about this year but I think it's a given that EA wants to put Battlefield 4 on hardware more powerful than 360 and PS3. They probably see a generation shift with a graphical showcase launch title as a sure way to take the bulk of CoD's audience.
 
Nah. 2013 for me.
I agree, Sept 2013. It might cost more to release early but I now think AMD is providing 9000 series GPU features to a 8000 series design for game consoles. SimiAccurate had an article on Sea Islands GPUs as being 28nm only 15% faster and from "insiders" mostly software changes. Full HSA is the 2014 9000 series and one "PS4/Xbox 720 Leak" had the GPU being full HSA and a Jaguar SoC different from the "Consumer 2013 version" of the Jaguar SoC.

I don't think AMD can hold out another year without getting revenue from next generation. The record 11,000 calls betting AMD stock would go up by March 2013 seems to indicate something happening by then. It could be Next generation being announced.
 
Found this: http://www.i-micronews.com/upload/Rapports/3D_Silicon_&Glass_Interposers_sample_2012.pdf

95dd2b6d.jpg


Wild speculation but the Oban chip being made by IBM and GloFlo could be the BLANK (not populated) Transposer substrate for next generation. Oban is a blank oblong Japanese gold coin with bumps on it. Oban is also a Coastal town in northern England so who knows.

Good article linked in the above: Flow to the wide DRAM technology solutions to increase the momentum in the 2.5D

In summary, AMD not using 3D stacking at this point, will use 2.5D with interposer and implement wide I/O memory to get the memory transfer speed needed for Fusion chips. GDDR5 being replaced by ultra-wide RAM most likely DDR4.

HPC memory and graphics memory GDDR5 post for (High Performance Computing) is heading to the introduction of the technology of wide memory interface. It uses a technology solution: (Through Silicon Via TSV) through-silicon vias. However, it is said instead of DRAM stack directly on top of the CPU and the GPU, and are considering the introduction of a method to use the I / O chip and silicon interposer.

One of the plans that has emerged is a way to connect with a wide DRAM interface CPU and GPU silicon interposer technology using TSV. Called for the 3D stacking DRAM stacked directly on CPU and GPU, and how to use the interposer is 2.5D. As in the case of 3D stacking, ultra-wide interface can be used by a very large number of micro-bump pins. However, unlike 3D stacking, there is no need to use a TSV the GPU or CPU, in terms of reduced risk of manufacture.

By using ultra-wide interface, low power consumption, using the TSV solution can achieve ultra-wideband memory. Standards relatively quiet, "Wide I / O" is a wide interface for mobile DRAM, the bandwidth is 12.8GB/sec memory per chip. However, in ultra-wideband 4-8 times of Wide I / O, in a non-mobile, memory bandwidth is that you want to target are considering to 100GB/sec per chip. Development of Wide I / O These are sometimes referred to by the name Wide I / O and Ultra Wideband Wide I / O, such as computing Wide I / O.
 
Did someone let it slip?
Not really, it's still a "rumor" but there is the Sony CTO Interview, SimiAccurate article and several other articles mentioning 3D stacking and TSVs.

Sony CTO interview on Playstation tech
Article on PS4 leaks parallels Sony CTO interview but adds AMD Fusion
Game Console SOCs shown using 3D stacked/ultrawide with TSVs memory (faster, eventually cheaper & energy efficient) and 3D ultra wide I/O memory
AMD planning 5 years for 3D stacking but not mentioning it.

Various posters on Neogaf mentioned that 3D stacking was not going to happen, I argued the above says it will and it appears that SOME 3D stacking might happen inside the SOC but AMD and the second Sony employee (Picture in my post) appear to be stating that the majority of stacking will be 2.5D (reduced risk of manufacture).

This is sorta good news, if true, as there is no need to wait for 3D stacking to mature, PS4 and Xbox 720 can release in late 2013.

IBM has work on 22nm registers for SPUs but we know the core AMD CPU-GPU is going to be 28nm SOI. Two 22nm 1PPU4SPU packages both on one silicon chip could be 2.5D attached to the AMD silicon. If this is happening, Sony waiting for 22nm's lower TDP could mean it will be used for more than Backward Compatibility.

I'm really at a loss in understanding Sony's thinking...I could be right in my theories but 1 refresh ahead of implementation. A 22nm PS3 using the same silicon as in the PS4 would be economical but it would occur too late in the PS3 life to be practical right? If Sony is dropping the PS3 Cell in favor of a cheap PS4 and BC is not happening then why the work on 22nm by IBM and why the 1PPU4SPU patent?
 

slider

Member
jeff, appreciate all the effort but one small thing which I keep noticing...
it's S...E...miAccurate and not Simi
.

Unless you're making some sly comment which is over my head... :(
 
jeff, appreciate all the effort but one small thing which I keep noticing...
it's S...E...miAccurate and not Simi
.

Unless you're making some sly comment which is over my head... :(
Nope, it's just my life long issue with i & e transposing. <grin>.
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
Sounds sort of similar to the Vita chip?

There are some 'Yole assumptions' in there, but the Yutaka quote is interesting, and I wonder where it came from.
 
Guess we could be looking at 2013 if they go with 2.5D stacking.
I want the PS4 to have as much power as possible but this Gen has really gone on to long .
Sony should push for 2013 they can't afford to come much later than MS.
 

TEH-CJ

Banned
Seriously hurry up and just release the damn fucking thing sony. im getting sick of HD collections coming out every damn week. this gen has been the biggest joke ever.
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
Yole Development makes another rather specific claim about PS4 and 2.5D/3D here:

http://www.i-micronews.com/upload/3DPackaging/AC_3D Packaging_August2012_Web.pdf

Sony&#8217;s next game station logic- on-interposer will reportedly similarly be fabbed by Global Foundries, and packaged by a collaborating OSAT (probably ASE, StatsChipPAC, SPIL or again Amkor).

Earlier in the year a panel of manufactuers (including Global Foundries), talking about 2.5/3D infrastructure, were asked if any of them would be supplying Sony for PS4.

http://www.electroiq.com/blogs/insi...ure-at-imaps-device-packaging-conference.html

Rumors abound that TSMC is designing the apple A6 processor for ipad and iphone with 3D TSV. When asked to comment on this or whether Samsung was also offering TSV in their design of the A6 this question brought the expected &#8220;no comment&#8221; from TSMCs Yu and silence from the rest of the panel. Similarly no one would offer up comment about who would be supplying Sony who announced that they would require TSV interposers for their next Playstation upgrade.

Sounds like Yole is relaying things they've heard off the grapevine.
 

McHuj

Member
What kind of bandwidth is possible with 512bit connection to DDR4?

136-204 GB/s (2.133-3.2Gbs per bit)

With only 128 MB or so, I think you'd want a fast eDRAM or SRAM on chip for something like 250-500 GB/s. The 360 EDRAM has a BW of 256 GB/s to it's ROPs and other logic, but only 30-some from the GPU since they're separate chips. Interposer would really alleviate that.
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
What kind of bandwidth is possible with 512bit connection to DDR4?

I think it would bring you up to GDDR5 levels of bandwidth. Up to around 200GB/s.

The rumour based around those 2011 specs was 2GB ('trying for more') of GDDR5 @ 192GB/s.

So maybe that's how they increase RAM capacity without compromising bandwidth vs gddr5...switch to ddr4 + wide bus. I dunno. Just a thought. Sony seems to place a high value on bandwidth. Going by the Yutaka presentation, Sony characterises PS2 as small memory + high bandwidth, PS3 as large memory + medium bandwidth, and they want PS4 to be large memory + large bandwidth. 'Large bandwidth' is probably going to be a fixed constraint, so only question will be how large the memory is...a wide bus might perhaps suggests a switch away from GDDR5 for more capacity.
 

McHuj

Member
I think it would bring you up to GDDR5 levels of bandwidth. Up to around 200GB/s.

The rumour based around those 2011 specs was 2GB ('trying for more') of GDDR5 @ 192GB/s.

So maybe that's how they increase RAM capacity without compromising bandwidth vs gddr5...switch to ddr4 + wide bus. I dunno. Just a thought.

I think in the time frame of the next gen consoles, you couldn't put 4-8GB of DDR4 on an interposer. I think it will be a small buffer. 360 has 10MB of EDRAM, WiiU 32MB of EDRAM, 720 is rumored to have some sort of embedded ram.

My guess the system will look like large amount gigabytes of DDR4 connected by a reasonable but to a small 64-256 MB buffer of very fast and wide on interposer RAM. The buffer has to be big enough for the GPU to do everything it needs per frame.
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
I think in the time frame of the next gen consoles, you couldn't put 4-8GB of DDR4 on an interposer. I think it will be a small buffer. 360 has 10MB of EDRAM, WiiU 32MB of EDRAM, 720 is rumored to have some sort of embedded ram.

My guess the system will look like large amount gigabytes of DDR4 connected by a reasonable but to a small 64-256 MB buffer of very fast and wide on interposer RAM. The buffer has to be big enough for the GPU to do everything it needs per frame.

Yeah, you might be right. I've no idea what limits there are on these things. Vita stacks all its memories (1GB+VRAM) on the chip, but they're different varieties than are involved in a home console so maybe the same isn't possible with larger amounts of higher powered memory.
 

bud23

Member
The big publishers had plans in motion for a new Xbox launch this year.

I'm not surprised to read this,if the rumors from early 2011 with EA in possession of dev kits for the next Microsoft console are true(which EA denied,they had no choice actually),
there will be launch titles with 2+ years of development,which makes me think that we will see a real step forward since day one.
 
Not really, it's still a "rumor" but there is the Sony CTO Interview, SimiAccurate article and several other articles mentioning 3D stacking and TSVs.

Sony CTO interview on Playstation tech
Article on PS4 leaks parallels Sony CTO interview but adds AMD Fusion
Game Console SOCs shown using 3D stacked/ultrawide with TSVs memory (faster, eventually cheaper & energy efficient) and 3D ultra wide I/O memory
AMD planning 5 years for 3D stacking but not mentioning it.

Various posters on Neogaf mentioned that 3D stacking was not going to happen, I argued the above says it will and it appears that SOME 3D stacking might happen inside the SOC but AMD and the second Sony employee (Picture in my post) appear to be stating that the majority of stacking will be 2.5D (reduced risk of manufacture).

This is sorta good news, if true, as there is no need to wait for 3D stacking to mature, PS4 and Xbox 720 can release in late 2013.

IBM has work on 22nm registers for SPUs but we know the core AMD CPU-GPU is going to be 28nm SOI. Two 22nm 1PPU4SPU packages both on one silicon chip could be 2.5D attached to the AMD silicon. If this is happening, Sony waiting for 22nm's lower TDP could mean it will be used for more than Backward Compatibility.

I'm really at a loss in understanding Sony's thinking...I could be right in my theories but 1 refresh ahead of implementation. A 22nm PS3 using the same silicon as in the PS4 would be economical but it would occur too late in the PS3 life to be practical right? If Sony is dropping the PS3 Cell in favor of a cheap PS4 and BC is not happening then why the work on 22nm by IBM and why the 1PPU4SPU patent?

It would be way to late in the PS3's life for major markets, but keep in mind PS2 is selling a lot in other countries and the PS3 hasn't taken off in those areas yet. Providing a super low cost PS3 for those markets would be beneficial to them.

Still wish it was 3D stacked. =[
I think it would bring you up to GDDR5 levels of bandwidth. Up to around 200GB/s.

The rumour based around those 2011 specs was 2GB ('trying for more') of GDDR5 @ 192GB/s.

So maybe that's how they increase RAM capacity without compromising bandwidth vs gddr5...switch to ddr4 + wide bus. I dunno. Just a thought. Sony seems to place a high value on bandwidth. Going by the Yutaka presentation, Sony characterises PS2 as small memory + high bandwidth, PS3 as large memory + medium bandwidth, and they want PS4 to be large memory + large bandwidth. 'Large bandwidth' is probably going to be a fixed constraint, so only question will be how large the memory is...a wide bus might perhaps suggests a switch away from GDDR5 for more capacity.

Hasn't Sony always gone with high bandwidth memory? PS2? PS3? Vita as well?
 
PS3 had lower bandwidth for some things than PS2. The GPU was talking to an off-chip bank of memory exclusively.

I'm echoing Sony's own characterisations here:
Good finds, I like this also
Uniqueness of Game Industry
&#8226;
Buy-all Condition No Binning, Fixed Frequency
&#8226;
Cost Sensitive To enhance install base , HW should be provided with very low price
&#8226;
The state of art technology Requires the same performance during a long lifetime; the performance should be stretched at the launch time
From BY3D, McHuj found a larger version of the picture I found/provided and posted it on BY3D.
McHuj said:
Long term, it wouldn't surprise me to see all GPU's go with 2.5D stacking of memory. People say that the next gen consoles won't be bleeding edge, I think they will be, just not in raw performance, but the overall system architecture and the efficiency that it can achieve.
Yup to fill all the conditions in the above "Uniqueness of Game Industry"

Also DDR4 offers several features that might improve memory transfer over how we calculate DDR3.

Wild speculation but the Oban chip being made by IBM and GloFlo could be the BLANK (as in not populated yet) Transposer substrate for next generation. Oban is a blank oblong Japanese gold coin with bumps on it. Oban is also a Coastal town in northern England so who knows.
 
PS3 had lower bandwidth for some things than PS2. The GPU was talking to an off-chip bank of memory exclusively.

I'm echoing Sony's own characterisations here:

Well wasn't PS3's GPU solution last minute? I mean... it would include the VRAM solution as well. Hell the GPU was probably the biggest bottleneck for the PS3.
 

AzaK

Member
That's a handful of games (COD may as well be it's own platform), I think the wider consensus at EA, Activision, Ubisoft, THQ et al is they have games in development for next gen, and they want to release them. I assume many are deep into development (Watch dogs is just the one we know about). Modern game publishing returns being the way they are, they develop financial projections etc based on game releases. In turn, investors base their outlook and investment based on these projections. No one on that end of the industry is happy.

The devs feel the pinch as the publisher backs off funding because they can't just give endless money while they wait. On our end the game probably ends up better as it has had a long dev cycle. But there will be a heavy cost to developers. Lay-offs, lots of them, because it's cost the publisher so damn much as they "sit" on these games waiting for the Hardware people to get their shit in one sock. It's going to be an ugly 12 months, games aren't selling what they need to this deep into a cycle. The only people not feeling the pinch as hard are Sony 1st party and 343... not many at all.

Will be interesting to see if we see the pubs putting more out on current gen as opposed to slowing down a bit and readying for the next gen Sony and MS consoles. Maybe we'll see some projects get an initial release on Wii U if the publishers need to get them out the door.....Naaaa.
 

onQ123

Member
Back to what I was saying earlier about Sony & MS being able to ride out 2013 because the PS3 & Xbox 360 is still going to be good enough for the average person throughout 2013.


today we was having a family dinner & my cousin & my brother was playing Madden 2013 on my PS3 when they started to play my cousin looks back at me & he is like " Oh Shit! this actually looks like they said it would look"

& I'm kinda looking at him strange because it's Madden & I wouldn't say it's much to be impressed about in Madden.


the strange thing about this is he has a PS3 , Xbox 360 & a few HDTVs & I'm sure he has played Madden in the last few years & I know he has the PS3 hooked up in HD because he called me one day to ask how to get the PS3 to go back to SD so he can hook it up to a tv without HD. I was wondering if it was just the effect of 1080P on a 27" but Madden is 720P so I'm left feeling like most average people are still being impressed with PS3/Xbox 360 graphics 7 years into this generation & I don't think next year is going to change that much.



I think this Next Gen transition is going to be a whole new ball game for Sony & Microsoft because of the HD graphics & internet connection on the PS3/Xbox 360.
 

AzaK

Member
so I'm left feeling like most average people are still being impressed with PS3/Xbox 360 graphics 7 years into this generation & I don't think next year is going to change that much.


I think this Next Gen transition is going to be a whole new ball game for Sony & Microsoft because of the HD graphics & internet connection on the PS3/Xbox 360.

Well, this could be EXACTLY why Nintendo does really really well in the first year. It will have graphics at least the same or better, and the controller is in fact something new and cool that is obviously different to the competition.
 
Back to what I was saying earlier about Sony & MS being able to ride out 2013 because the PS3 & Xbox 360 is still going to be good enough for the average person throughout 2013.


today we was having a family dinner & my cousin & my brother was playing Madden 2013 on my PS3 when they started to play my cousin looks back at me & he is like " Oh Shit! this actually looks like they said it would look"

& I'm kinda looking at him strange because it's Madden & I wouldn't say it's much to be impressed about in Madden.


the strange thing about this is he has a PS3 , Xbox 360 & a few HDTVs & I'm sure he has played Madden in the last few years & I know he has the PS3 hooked up in HD because he called me one day to ask how to get the PS3 to go back to SD so he can hook it up to a tv without HD. I was wondering if it was just the effect of 1080P on a 27" but Madden is 720P so I'm left feeling like most average people are still being impressed with PS3/Xbox 360 graphics 7 years into this generation & I don't think next year is going to change that much.



I think this Next Gen transition is going to be a whole new ball game for Sony & Microsoft because of the HD graphics & internet connection on the PS3/Xbox 360.

I really think Wii U could benefit to Xbox 360 and PS3 lifespan.
 

Melchiah

Member
Back to what I was saying earlier about Sony & MS being able to ride out 2013 because the PS3 & Xbox 360 is still going to be good enough for the average person throughout 2013.

today we was having a family dinner & my cousin & my brother was playing Madden 2013 on my PS3 when they started to play my cousin looks back at me & he is like " Oh Shit! this actually looks like they said it would look"

& I'm kinda looking at him strange because it's Madden & I wouldn't say it's much to be impressed about in Madden.

the strange thing about this is he has a PS3 , Xbox 360 & a few HDTVs & I'm sure he has played Madden in the last few years & I know he has the PS3 hooked up in HD because he called me one day to ask how to get the PS3 to go back to SD so he can hook it up to a tv without HD. I was wondering if it was just the effect of 1080P on a 27" but Madden is 720P so I'm left feeling like most average people are still being impressed with PS3/Xbox 360 graphics 7 years into this generation & I don't think next year is going to change that much.

I think this Next Gen transition is going to be a whole new ball game for Sony & Microsoft because of the HD graphics & internet connection on the PS3/Xbox 360.

Well, I'm personally still impressed by the graphics of PS3 games, like Journey and The Last of Us, and I'm in no hurry for the next gen to arrive. I think it's partly because I bought a HDTV only two years ago, and it was pretty much like a generational leap in itself.
 

Meelow

Banned
Well, this could be EXACTLY why Nintendo does really really well in the first year. It will have graphics at least the same or better, and the controller is in fact something new and cool that is obviously different to the competition.

I know you know the Wii U is more powerful.
 
I think this Next Gen transition is going to be a whole new ball game for Sony & Microsoft because of the HD graphics & internet connection on the PS3/Xbox 360.

Bear with me as this is going to be difficult to preface: The entire CE industry is taking us for a technology ride. They look 10-20 years down the road to see what might be possible and develop roadmaps for new TV resolutions and features. Due to chicken and egg issues they release features like 1080P and blu-ray, which requires 1080P, years before it becomes an accepted by the FCC standard for Over The Air broadcasts. Smart TV started in ?2009? but won't be officially used in the US till 2013 with ATSC 2.0 but was implemented 2011 with hbbTV DVB in the EU .

Sony was criticized for including blu-ray and 1080P in the PS3 as it added to the costs. Why introduce 1080P in 2006 and 3-D in 2010, no one had a 1080P TV in 2006 and no one had a 3-D TV in 2010, who would watch it? 3-D is going to be part of ATSC 2.0 along with 1080P and XTV in 2013 (6 years after the first blu-ray and 1080P TVs released).

ATSC 3.0 in the US is going to follow the international standard to be implemented (hardware) by TVs produced starting 2018. Since it's an international standard, the TVs we buy from Korea, China or Japan will already have ATSC 3.0 tuners and CPUs that can handle downconverting or displays that can handle 4K to 8K resolutions. To Chicken and egg prepare for this like we had with; 1080P, 3-D and blu-ray, a 4K blu-ray is going to be released next year (2013) and the PS4 will support 4K blu-ray, 4K and possibly 8K video streams as well as new HDMI port resolutions that will be standards for next generation TVs. (6-7 years after 4K blu-ray is released we will see the FCC authorize ATSC 3.0 (2020)). Lots of assumptions in the dates above.

Some are now knocking Sony for supporting 4K in the PS4 as who has or can afford a 4K TV and it adds to the cost of the PS4. IF you understand the above, the reasons for a VERY expensive launch PS3 become clear and the reason for including 4K in the PS4 is obvious. This time 4K blu-ray is going to cost only a few dollars more than 2K blu-ray in a game console. The added speed/FPS needed for 4K blu-ray can also be used for multi-view "Eyefinity view" or to support Head mounted displays, TVs and handhelds at the same time.

AMD-Eyefinity-Technology-Hero-Banner_770W.jpg


gofreak found this: http://www.semicontaiwan.org/en/sites/semicontaiwan.org/files/SiP 3D IC_Teiji_Yutaka_SONY.pdf

2010 April 22 System Software Ver3.30 Every Single PlayStation® 3 (PS3®) supports Stereoscopic 3D (S3D)

1. Game Industry struggle for seeking the new exciting experience
2. Reality is the critical trend of Gaming
3. Interactive S3D brings you to next Level
4. Do not mind wearing 3D Glasses Game is the Concentration-required Media
5. Relatively Easy to add S3D functionality to 3D Game

5 Major Characteristics to explain Graphics Evolution

3D is the key word of Modern Game 3D Graphics
S3D Graphics World&#8217;s First Real-time 3D Graphics Game Console END-to-END 3D Graphics Improve the quality of Real-time 3D Graphics &#8220;Reality&#8221;is the key trend of the Home console games

FPS (First Person Shooter)
Free World / Sports / Driving

Games Become Real-World Simulator thanks to the improvement of Quality in Graphics S3D Adds new dimension of Reality to the Game

S3D with Glass 2x Render Performance 2 eye views
Naked-eye S3D 10x Render Performance 5 2 eye views
Interesting, rumors are 300FPS (from Sony CTO) 10 eye views (5 S3D) at 30 FPS each and the target of 10X GPU performance. I guess this is where the specs for next generation come from for Sony. They want to support glassless 3-D on 4K TVs with the PS4.

Page 21 in the Sony PDF gofreak found surprised me, I didn't realize the 5 views for glassless S3D (4K TV) were separate images that have to be supplied by the source. This makes sense when I think back to examples of those same TVs supporting 5 different video streams at the same time, just move a few inches to the right or left and you can view a different video stream or select one in your viewing area from a remote.

Can the above information be used to predict that the PS4 chipset and AMD are going to support S3D using shutter glasses with 5 3-D panels oriented as in the above picture of Eyefinity view from AMD which I assume is at this time only 2D. This is more than double what we are expecting as to GPU work unless there is some trick in rendering. More than 5 video streams has been expected but not game GPU rendered S3D 5 views. Beast indeed. This needs discussion, what's coming is more than we expected.

http://eandt.theiet.org/magazine/2011/12/maasaki-tsu-interview.cfm said:
Sony&#8217;s target is to get latency for a typical playing experience to below 50ms for framerates of more than 300fps. Now, 50ms is an absolute best performance level to start with &#8211; most displays actually increase it &#8211; for framerates of about 60fps ceiling. Moreover, the target is not for 1080p resolution, but reflect a drive towards 8kx4k.
 

RoboPlato

I'd be in the dick
So 4K blurays will be on quad layered blu ray discs then? I have a respectable bluray collection, I wouldn't want to upgrade again.
The spec is called BDXL, I'm not sure if it'll require new players though. I think it will if your player is more than a couple years old. I just plan on getting a PS4 and having that be my BD player anyway.
 

erick

Banned
1843Gflops is nowhere near HD7970 isn't it?

Probably fake but quite believable specs I guess....

You get this number if you downclock the original HD7950 (1792 shader units : 112 Texture Mapping Units : 32 Raster Output Pipelines) from 800MHz to roughly 515MHz.

This will also probably bring the power consumption from 180W to <100W ranges. The lower the clock, the less voltage they can use so power use will not drop linearly but exponentially.


Assuming this is what they would go for, the projected power of this GPU @ 515MHz looks like this:

Pixel Fill Rate: 16480 MPixels/sec
Texture Fill Rate: 57680 MTexels/sec

In comparison, X360 GPU @ 500MHz puts out:

Pixel Fill Rate: 4000 MPixels/sec
Texture Fill Rate: 8000 MTexels/sec

So pure pixel fill rate would be 4,12x faster and texture fill rate would be 7,21x faster.
 
You guys, stop that 512bit bus dreams. That would lead to a massive and expensive as hell PCB. Unshrinkable aswell for a foreseeable Slim version.

One of the first things companies do to cut costs and power consumption is to nerf buses.

I don't understand some guys interest into mixing concepts and things.
 

RaijinFY

Member
You guys, stop that 512bit bus dreams. That would lead to a massive and expensive as hell PCB. Unshrinkable aswell for a foreseeable Slim version.

One of the first things companies do to cut costs and power consumption is to nerf buses.

I don't understand some guys interest into mixing concepts and things.

It's not an external bus but by an interposer.
 

GopherD

Member
From all this speculation, can we answer the following simple question?
What year is the PS4 being released?

If they go with 2.5D stacking, then there is no technological holdup to them releasing Christmas 2013. If they go with 3D stacking, and there is no problem with at AMDs end, then anywhere from March-July 2014 onward at the earliest.
 
Driven by Economics it's now 1 minute to 3D

Hot Chips talks about Chip Stacking

Die stacking has problems and Promise

3D wafer stacked memory will be ready for Game Consoles 2013-2014 Provides even more efficiencies when inside the SOC.

Globalfoundries Pirouettes Around The Process Node Problem 14nm transistors on a 20nm plane.
14nm finfet technology will level the playing field for the fabless community by giving them a process as good as anything available in the IDM community, says Mojy Chian, senior vice president for design enablement at Globalfoundries.

Globalfoundries intends to have 14nm finfet in volme manufacturing in 2014, the same timescale as Intel has for introducing 14nm finfet manufacturing.

In fact, GF's 14nm process may use smaller transistors than Intel's, said Chian because "Intel's terminology doesn't typically correlate with the terminology used by the foundry industry. For instance Intel's 22nm in terms of the back-end metallisation is similar to the foundry industry's 28nm. The design rules and pitch for Intel's 22nm are very similar to those for foundries' 28nm processes."

On the Intel 22nm process the drawn gate length is actually 26nm.

GF's 14nm process delivers a number of benefits over 20nm. "One benefit is that it reduces development time because people can easily migrate from 20nm to 14nm," said Chian, "customers can use the same GDSII and swap the transistors." GF calls it 'fin-friendly migration.'

Fin-friendly migration benefits from the characteristic of GF's 14nm process that it retains the 20nm interconnect while moving to 14nm transistors.

Other benefits of GF's 14nm are that it will deliver 20-55% higher performance than 20nm depending on the operating voltage, or that it can deliver 40-60% better battery life with the same performance.

The GF 14nm technology uses rectangular-shaped fins. That could change when it moves into volue manufacturing when the exigencies of real-world production require compromises, but GF's current expectation is that the rectangular shape will survive into manufacturing. Intel has had to go to a triangular-shaped fin which reduces the performance and the power-saving benfits of finfets.

At the front of the GF 14nm finfet node will be mobile SOCs. GF has been working with ARM since 2009 to optimise its processes for ARM-based SOCs. 14nm will be the first process at which Intel will put mobile SOCs to the front of the node.

By moving to 14nm finfet while keeping 20nm interconnect, GF has brought forward the intorduction of its 14nm process by one year.

Next year GF starts production on 20nm. GF's 20nm SRAM, and various customer test chips on 20nm, are yielding "very well", said Chian.
This is designed for Handheld SoCs and currently expensive. AMD has 20nm process now, some parts @ 20nm may make it into the PS4. Heat issues in 3D stacking are less with more efficient smaller node sizes. A wait to use more 20nm process might be attractive enough to delay a launch to early 2014. AMD and GloFlo thinking outside the box and mixing process optimized building blocks in both 3D/2.5D stacking of discrete silicon and on the same building block silicon (14nm transistors on 20nm plane).

http://www.guru3d.com/news_printer/amd_20132014_and_2015_gpu_codenames.html said:
According to an article, AMD will continue the trend in 2014 with "Volcanic Islands". This GPU series will go head-to-head against NVIDIA's Maxwell and Intel's second-gen Xeon Phi architecture. Volcanic Islands will be the first GPU family from AMD to be manufactured at 20nm Gate-Last process, giving the company freedom to choose between the Common Platform Alliance (IBM, GlobalFoundries and Samsung) as well as long-term partner TSMC. This will also be the year when we'll see full system integration between the CPU and GPU. The APU (for consumers and servers) will extend to the discrete graphics card and treat it as an integral part, and the other way around.
The above meets the need of a Game console "the performance should be stretched at the launch time" and multiple Forges can produce it. (GloFlo & IBM are currently 28nm gate first so designs for them can't work with TSMC. At 20nm AMD is moving to gate-last and that design can be produced by TSMC.)

Ready for 2013 or wait for 2014, perhaps pushing for early 2014? I'm guessing both AMD and Sony want Full HSA for the PS4 game console. One or both next generation consoles have to be Full HSA (AMD betting the farm on HSA) to jump start programmers using HSA. For this reason I've always assumed a 2014 AMD design produced in 2013 @ 28nm. Maybe it will be a 20nm 2014 design in 2013 or 2014. None of us know for sure.

Register work at 22nm by IBM (GloFlo, IBM and Samsung are sharing technology) for Playstation and Sony stating they were skipping the 32nm node for Cell is a possible hint.
- Owned the register file cell qualification analysis in the 22nm node
- Owned the design of a 3.2GHz one read one write custom register file array in the 22nm node.

"Next year GF starts production on 20nm. GF's 20nm SRAM, and various customer test chips on 20nm, are yielding "very well"" Does next year mean full production starting Dec 2012 or Dec 2013?????? For both AMD and Sony, considering their stock prices, it can't come soon enough but are the Forges ready?
 
From a banned ex gaffer on twitter

Microsoft has assured third party publishers sitting on expensive next-gen projects that they will unveil the Xbox Durango shortly after CES

It's...something. sounds reasonable. get pre-hype.
 

McHuj

Member
Awesome. That's been my expectation. I bet third parties really want to talk openly about next gen games.

Announce early Q1, GDC focused on the hardware and development. E3 all about games.
 
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