[onQ123]

The real question is, are the ram pools dictated by edram if a unified architecture is universally implemented given the fact that ddr7 and ddr4 are compatible in terms of 38 nm wafers with resistors that can reduce latency and throughput by means of bandwidth allocation and 256 bit buses? That's the real question..

no the real question is where are you going to get ddr7 from?

[i-Lo]

They will

What makes you so certain that Sony will be putting 4GB GDDR5?

[tinfoilhatman]

The chances of DDR3 being in the next Xbox in any way shape or form is less than 50%, sounds more like wishful thinking from anti-microsoft crowd.

It's never be used for GPU memory\frame buffer

[spwolf]

Why would the OS need 120g of HDD space...?

it wont, lol.

but why would someone write more than 380gb when options are either 300 or 500? :-)

[phosphor112]

At certain, trivial workloads. Lets see one of it's biggest critics is Carmack, who to trust, you or him... The IPC of the Xenon/Cell PPE is supposed to be 0.2, vs close to 1 for current X86... I actually dont think 20x is an exaggeration. In order to out of order alone is insane difference.

Carmack's criticism wasn't of the cell, but of the memory and the slow read speeds of the BD.

IF Sony can manage a 2x Bulldozer and 2xSPU modules under HSA (meaning easy programming for both) then I think that would be optimal. Have the bulldozer cores for traditional chugging, have the 2 spu modules for BC and high flop output and to also work in conjunction with whatever GPU they have on there.

If HSA works as it should, it shouldn't be hard to throw the SPU modules on there, especially with the (much) lower power consumption vs flop output over x86.

Maybe I've been listening to Jeff too much but, it makes sense.

[Durante]

2 SPEs wouldn't make any sense, that still won't get you BC. You need at least 6. Which, once you integrate any at all, shouldn't be much additional burden. In comparison to the transistor budgets of the average modern CPU, these SPEs are tiny.

(A Bulldozer module is ~300 million transistors, a SPE is 21 million)

[Graphics Horse]

http://controversy.typepad.com/video...rs-at-ces.html According to reliable sources, the Xbox Infinity (which has a slight chance of being called Xbox 365 when it launches) has in fact been revealed to major developers at the 2012 CES! The reason these developers have not mentioned anything to the public or the media is because the developers have signed a contract preventing the console from being discussed publicly. And from what I'm told, the Xbox Infinity is still on schedule to be released in time for Christmas of 2012 in North America. I'm looking forward to seeing the Xbox Infinity in action at the 2012 Electronic Entertainment Expo!"

Is there any reason why this guy, and this post specifically is meant to be reliable? Because aside from it not showing up at E3, he says in posts from April that its due in late 2013.

[phosphor112]

2 SPEs wouldn't make any sense, that still won't get you BC. You need at least 6. Which, one you integrate any at all, shouldn't be much additional burden. In comparison to the transistor budgets of the average modern CPU, these SPEs are tiny. (A Bulldozer module is ~300 million transistors, a SPE is 21 million)

PPU modules as in 1ppu 4spe's. 2 of those would get 2ppu's with 8spe's.

EDIT: Silly mistake on my part.

[jeff_rigby]

Is there any reason why this guy, and this post specifically is meant to be reliable? Because aside from it not showing up at E3, he says in posts from April that its due in late 2013.

Read again,

Xbox Infinity is scheduled to be released in late 2012 in North America. The European launch is not scheduled until the spring of 2013.

[KageMaru]

SPU modules as in 1spu 4spe's. 2 of those would get 2spu's with 8spe's.

Last I checked, SPE and SPU were the same thing.

[ekim]

Read again,

Nevertheless, they didn't announce it on E3 2012. So there is >99% no release this year.
We may see an announcement on a dedicated conference like they did for surface...

[Rösti]

Last I checked, SPE and SPU were the same thing.

Each SPE consists of: A vector processor, called a Synergistic Processing Unit, or SPU A private memory area within the SPU called the local store (the size of this area on the PS3 is 256K) A set of communication channels for dealing with the outside world A set of 128 registers, each 128 bits wide (each register is normally treated as holding four 32-bit values simultaneously) A Memory Flow Controller (MFC) which manages DMA transfers between the SPU's local store and main memory

Source: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/po...pa-linuxps3-1/

The article is from 2007 though, so some specifications may have changed (slightly).

[iamshadowlark]

Elements and Units are the same thing for all intents and purposes.

[REMEMBER CITADEL]

Read again,

You didn't answer the question. Which is not surprising, since you're reading the rumors the way you want to read them. For example, you claim that a number of Durango and Orbis rumors are actually about X361 and PS3.5. Why? Because that's what suits your agenda.

[phosphor112]

Last I checked, SPE and SPU were the same thing.

Sorry, PPU. Barely had sleep last night.

[StevieP]

The chances of DDR3 being in the next Xbox in any way shape or form is less than 50%, sounds more like wishful thinking from anti-microsoft crowd.

DDR3 is currently in the kits. A LOT of it .

It's never be used for GPU memory\frame buffer

Incredibly incorrect. It's pretty common, actually.

[iamshadowlark]

DDR3 is currently in the kits. A LOT of it . Incredibly incorrect. It's pretty common, actually.

It's not common for games of next-gen fidelity, which is obviously the only thing relevant. In fact I can't name one...

[StevieP]

It's not common for games of next-gen fidelity, which is obviously the only thing relevant. In fact I can't name one...

There is an absolute shit-ton of video cards (and mobile video chips) that use DDR3 instead of GDDR5. Out right now. Actively.

There are a bunch of Kepler (Nvidia's new chip) 28nm cards that use it, both low/mid-end and in the mobile sector (650m isn't a bad mid range mobile part):
http://www.geforce.com/hardware/note...specifications

There are 28nm AMD GCN chips that use it as well:
http://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-Rad...M.57211.0.html

[onQ123]

DDR3 is currently in the kits. A LOT of it . Incredibly incorrect. It's pretty common, actually.

those are not the real Dev Kits anti-microsoft ninjas attacked the delivery truck driver & replaced the ram sticks with DDR3 from Newegg.



I think DDR3 is just the only memory that they can get 12GB of into the dev kits at the moment & things might change by time it's released

[Durante]

There is an absolute shit-ton of video cards (and mobile video chips) that use DDR3 instead of GDDR5. Out right now. Actively.

At the very low-end. Which I assume is what iamshadowlark was pointing at with the "next-gen fidelity" part.

I have to think that, should MS go with a DDR3-only UMA console, they will include eDRAM or some other type of fast framebuffer memory again. Everything else would just be too slow.

[Graphics Horse]

Read again,

Why am I to read a 2011 post again, when he has posted several times since then with contradictory information?

[iamshadowlark]

At the very low-end. Which I assume is what iamshadowlark was pointing at with the "next-gen fidelity" part. I have to think that, should MS go with a DDR3-only UMA console, they will include eDRAM or some other type of fast framebuffer memory again. Everything else would just be too slow.

Yeah exactly.

[KageMaru]

At the very low-end. Which I assume is what iamshadowlark was pointing at with the "next-gen fidelity" part. I have to think that, should MS go with a DDR3-only UMA console, they will include eDRAM or some other type of fast framebuffer memory again. Everything else would just be too slow.

Yeah and as I said on the last page, this is a bad idea IMO.

[jeff_rigby]

Nevertheless, they didn't announce it on E3 2012. So there is >99% no release this year. We may see an announcement on a dedicated conference like they did for surface...

There is confusion as to what they are discussing. If it's a Xbox365 they can't announce it till ready to sell as it will disrupt/destroy the Xbox360 market. Days before it goes on Sale it will be announced. Till then behind closed doors with NDAs. The author has the correct name and release schedule but thinks it's next generation or incompatible with Xbox360.

[i-Lo]

Imagine if we made a petition saying, "Sony, 4GB GDDR5 for PS4 or bust" and spread it across multiple forums and blogs. Perhaps we should send Sony the price list of RAM from Newegg, Amazon etc (this will for us what multicoloured cup cakes were to ME fans, i.e. no commonality but is useful symbolically).

Perhaps we may get a response about what's what sooner than later.

[mrklaw]

At the very low-end. Which I assume is what iamshadowlark was pointing at with the "next-gen fidelity" part. I have to think that, should MS go with a DDR3-only UMA console, they will include eDRAM or some other type of fast framebuffer memory again. Everything else would just be too slow.

Exactly. Mobile chips like the 650m are nice chips, but often they are crippled with budget DDR3 RAM. I guess manufacturers do it because people will see the 650m sticker and buy it, not realising what a big difference RAM can make.

Has it been confirmed what size bus is being used in the 720 dev kits? If its wide at least that'd speed things up a little. But I can't square the circle of having a massive amount of slow ram in a next gen console. Unless its for a windows 8 OS. Don't see the benefit of that configuration for games unless edram/fast local cache can offset the slower ram.

I'm really curious to see the first peeks of what comes out, and the first proper developer comments when it is revealed

[coldfoot]

I dont really know the "mass production" schedules or feasibility here, DDR3-2800 is being produced

Really? How many can you get now? How expensive is it? Is it being mass produced to the same degree that a GTX680 is being mass produced? a.k.a in the tens of thousands?

I think MS can order it to be mass produced. I think DDR4 is ramping soon.

Two different issues and risks. I'm sure Sony thought in 2005: "I think blu-ray diodes are ramping soon" and with far more information than you and I have.

And it doesnt have to be in production in less than a year unless you also state Wii U must be in mass production right this instant...

Wii U is low risk manufacturing with old low-tech non-exotic parts. And how do you know they haven't started mass producing it yet?

[KageMaru]

IIRC one of our insider people said that final hardware has been sent out with just the tools and APIs being updated. So it's possible the system itself could be in production if all the Q&A work is done. Though I imagine they would limit production to a point so they aren't stuck with a warehouse full of systems if sales don't pan out.

[onQ123]

Imagine if we made a petition saying, "Sony, 4GB GDDR5 for PS4 or bust" and spread it across multiple forums and blogs. Perhaps we should send Sony the price list of RAM from Newegg, Amazon etc (this will for us what multicoloured cup cakes were to ME fans, i.e. no commonality but is useful symbolically). Perhaps we may get a response about what's what sooner than later.

& what if that make them change their minds & go for 4GB of GDDR5 but have to change the design & lose performance that they would have got by stacking the memory on the chip?

[sTeLioSco]

IIRC one of our insider people said that final hardware has been sent out with just the tools and APIs being updated. So it's possible the system itself could be in production if all the Q&A work is done. Though I imagine they would limit production to a point so they aren't stuck with a warehouse full of systems if sales don't pan out.

the final hardware is different from the leaked specs?

[SPE]

My biggest hope for the PS4 is that is contains no legacy Cell components, and I can finally reclaim my online name from the misuse of Sony.

7 years on, and I still double take when I see people post about SPE thinking they're talking about me.

[i-Lo]

& what if that make them change their minds & go for 4GB of GDDR5 but have to change the design & lose performance that they would have got by stacking the memory on the chip?

If they can do it for 2GB (if they are doing it at all) then why can't they do that for 4GB GDDR5? If Asus can fit 32 chips on its special MARS line of GPU I am sure Sony will find a way to do the same on a motherboard at least 1.5-2 times larger.

I mean, they are in this for the long haul once more and as aforementioned, multiplat games should not suffer once more. And don't mistake me for a troll but I have significant doubt on PS can survive just on first party releases.

Besides, stacking seems simple enough:

;P

[jeff_rigby]

You didn't answer the question. Which is not surprising, since you're reading the rumors the way you want to read them. For example, you claim that a number of Durango and Orbis rumors are actually about X361 and PS3.5. Why? Because that's what suits your agenda.

Any next generation console that is scheduled to release in 2012 is not PS4 or Xbox720...correct????? If it's a new whatever and coming in 2012 is must be PS3.5 or Xbox 365. In January we could not say that Xbox 720 and PS3 were coming 2013 or later, 6 months later it's now obvious that this is true. We now need to look at the rumors in a different light.

My agenda is to discover the truth hidden in misunderstandings and rumors. What is your agenda? If you don't believe the PS4 is coming this Christmas season then your statement is either incredibly stupid or you are trolling.

[StevieP]

But I can't square the circle of having a massive amount of slow ram in a next gen console. Unless its for a windows 8 OS.

And bingo was his name-o

[onQ123]

My biggest hope for the PS4 is that is contains no legacy Cell components, and I can finally reclaim my online name from the misuse of Sony. 7 years on, and I still double take when I see people post about SPE thinking they're talking about me.

LMAO I was looking at your name with a slant eye as I was reading your post.

If they can do it for 2GB (if they are doing it at all) then why can't they do that for 4GB GDDR5? If Asus can fit 32 chips on its special MARS line of GPU I am sure Sony will find a way to do the same on a motherboard at least 1.5-2 times larger. I mean, they are in this for the long haul once more and as aforementioned, multiplat games should not suffer once more. And don't mistake me for a troll but I have significant doubt on PS can survive just on first party releases. Besides, stacking seems simple enough: ;P maybe there is a problem with heat when stacking more than 2GB at the moment but they are waiting to see if their is a breakthrough

And bingo was his name-o

it's like all the signs are right there but no one seems to be reading them.

[Sho_Nuff82]

Any next generation console that is scheduled to release in 2012 is not PS4 or Xbox720...correct????? If it's a new whatever and coming in 2012 is must be PS3.5 or Xbox 365. In January we could not say that Xbox 720 and PS3 were coming 2013 or later, 6 months later it's now obvious that this is true. We now need to look at the rumors in a different light. My agenda is to discover the truth hidden in misunderstandings and rumors. What is your agenda? If you don't believe the PS4 is coming this Christmas season then your statement is either incredibly stupid or you are trolling.

I think he's trying to point out that you never considered that the source was fraudulent. If someone blows a huge thing like "MS announcing a new SKU at CES / E3 to launch fall 2012" you would think they would lose credibility, not that people would re-interpret their posts to fit into an established narrative.

[specialguy]

Really? How many can you get now? How expensive is it? Is it being mass produced to the same degree that a GTX680 is being mass produced? a.k.a in the tens of thousands? Two different issues and risks. I'm sure Sony thought in 2005: "I think blu-ray diodes are ramping soon" and with far more information than you and I have. Wii U is low risk manufacturing with old low-tech non-exotic parts. And how do you know they haven't started mass producing it yet?

I dont know, but common sense is if it's available (and has been) in June 2012, MS can ramp it to mass production by Nov 2013, 1.5 years away. Hell people speculate on all kinds of technologies that dont exist in any shipping part yet being in these consoles, like HMC, 3D stacking...

Also we have the leaked doc which specifically points at DDR4, so it doesn't have to be DDR3-2800. That's just the high end for reference.

[StevieP]

it's like all the signs are right there but no one seems to be reading them.

I was referring more to a Win 8-based/like STB being the basis, and how a large pool of slower ram makes more sense in that regard.

[REMEMBER CITADEL]

Any next generation console that is scheduled to release in 2012 is not PS4 or Xbox720...correct????? If it's a new whatever and coming in 2012 is must be PS3.5 or Xbox 365.

That's a huge if, and even your source corrected himself since the initial claim (by the way, he was similarly certain regarding "the next Gears of War trilogy", and he was completely wrong). The only new console scheduled to release this year is Wii U. If - and that's another huge if - Sony or Microsoft release new revisions of their consoles this year, they won't be drastically different from what we already have, not to the extent you're suggesting. You wouldn't introduce something that big without presenting it at a large public event, and Microsoft is skipping both TGS and Gamescom. You also wouldn't risk diluting the upcoming reveal of your next proper console by starting a huge marketing campaign for another essentially similar product now.

Sure, there might have been plans before - we may never find out for sure - but plans often change (case in point: Microsoft's wand controller).

By the way, even if something like what you're suggesting was to happen, it's unlikely Microsoft would name its console Xbox 365. If you want it to simply serve as a replacement for your current product to the people who don't already have one, you'd give it the exact same name. The console revision known to us as Xbox 360 S, which has brought us quite a few changes, is still being marketed under the same old name Xbox 360. On the other hand, if you want it to become a completely new product so that even people who already own a 360 would come to desire one, you'd give it a more differentiating name and avoid the "well, that doesn't sound like a big step-up from what I already have" line of reasoning from the less savvy crowd (a lesson Nintendo is learning the hard way).

In January we could not say that Xbox 720 and PS3 were coming 2013 or later, 6 months later it's now obvious that this is true.

Well, I've been saying that for almost a year now, but yeah, it's not like I had any hard evidence at the time.

My agenda is to discover the truth hidden in misunderstandings and rumors.

You're doing it the wrong way, you're only causing more confusion by presenting your hunches (which may be based on careful observation of rumors and other happenings, but that's a very slippery terrain and you won't be right every time) as something that's bound to come true.

If you don't believe the PS4 is coming this Christmas season then your statement is either incredibly stupid or you are trolling.

...what?

EDIT: Oh, right, I get it now, it's past 2 AM here... No, I don't believe that, I'm not trolling and I don't think that what I'm saying is incredibly stupid either.

[shinra-bansho]

Also we have the leaked doc which specifically points at DDR4, so it doesn't have to be DDR3-2800. That's just the high end for reference.

The IEB roadmap was presumably written by marketers; I don't think anything can really be taken from it with regard to technical specifications beyond vague performance target multipliers and an overarching theme of being an affordable Windows 8 home entertainment centre.

[specialguy]

I agree, but in this case it's still something vs nothing. DDR4 has been touted as a reasonable choice on B3D, it may start out somewhat expensive, but as the gen goes on it should become much less expensive than DDR3 which is what MS would be looking at.

[onQ123]

I was referring more to a Win 8-based/like STB being the basis, and how a large pool of slower ram makes more sense in that regard.

I wasn't talking about you I was talking about people not seeing that the Xbox Next will be pretty much a windows 8 box.

even if it's not a full windows 8 OS it will be pretty close.

[Angelus Errare]

It'll probably have Windows RT at most. Having full blown Windows 8 is utterly pointless.

[REMEMBER CITADEL]

I wasn't talking about you I was talking about people not seeing that the Xbox Next will be pretty much a windows 8 box. even if it's not a full windows 8 OS it will be pretty close.

It definitely won't be the full OS, there's absolutely no need for that and with that kind of overhead the system would be DOA. It's way too early to claim that it will be pretty close to it, too, although it will almost certainly be based on the same kernel.

[shinra-bansho]

Could the more technically inclined rank the following in their opinion of what would be best for gaming/game development:

8GB DDR3 with some amount of eDRAM
6GB DDR3 and 2GB GDDR5
4GB GDDR5
2GB GDDR5

[Stephen Colbert]

Imagine if we made a petition saying, "Sony, 4GB GDDR5 for PS4 or bust" and spread it across multiple forums and blogs. Perhaps we should send Sony the price list of RAM from Newegg, Amazon etc (this will for us what multicoloured cup cakes were to ME fans, i.e. no commonality but is useful symbolically). Perhaps we may get a response about what's what sooner than later.

Neat idea. I like the way you think.

It's akin to the cupcake idea. Perhaps we should even send them cupcakes so it's seen as a nice gesture.

You should start a thread/petition for it.

[squidyj]

Could the more technically inclined rank the following in their opinion of what would be best for gaming/game development: 8GB DDR3 with some amount of eDRAM 6GB DDR3 and 2GB GDDR5 4GB GDDR5 2GB GDDR5

why would you include 2gb of gddr5? there is no technical benefit to having less of the same RAM.

[Stephen Colbert]

Could the more technically inclined rank the following in their opinion of what would be best for gaming/game development: 8GB DDR3 with some amount of eDRAM 6GB DDR3 and 2GB GDDR5 4GB GDDR5 2GB GDDR5

It depends on for what purpose but I would generally rank them..

4GB GDDR5
6GB DDR3 and 2GB GDDR5
Between 2GB GDDR5 and 8GB DDR3 with some amount of eDRAM depending on how much eDRAM you're talking about.

[bgassassin]

4xjaguar at 3.2 ghz would also be a decent CPU. It would have 2x the cores and 2x the clock speed off brazos before even considering architectural ipc improvements.

If they are going Jaguar it won't be 3.2 Ghz.

why would you include 2gb of gddr5? there is no technical benefit to having less of the same RAM.

It would be a framebuffer just like on a graphics card. And in that case you wouldn't need eDRAM. Based on what we know those first two he listed are the most logical choices (other than it being DDR4 instead of DDR3).

[Stephen Colbert]

It'll probably have Windows RT at most. Having full blown Windows 8 is utterly pointless.

RT makes sense. You could use Kinect hand gestures to supplant the touchscreen and run all native RT apps.