[ChiTownBuffalo]

This is LiveJournal-y, I apologize in advance:


After thinking about this for a long time. I've come to the determination that I will never set foot inside a church again. I simply cannot resolve my political views, and things I know in my heart to be the right thing, with what I hear from those I share my faith with.

Even in cordial and polite discussions with other Christians, there is no sway, and a base line zealotry when it comes to issues like abortion and gay marriage. I do not feel that abortion is the appropriate choice, however, I don't feel that it is an option I should be allowed to take off the table for others. Yes, I beleive that if we emphasize sexual responsbility and education in schools that the number of unnecessary abortions can be reduced, but I also cannot get in line with the idea of taking away safe, professional medical facilities and professional personnel from those who choose to have one, just because its not a right choice for me.

As it comes to gay marriage. I simply do not see this as a threat to the family. Being shitty parents or having a shitty marriage is a threat to the family, not two people who want to commit to each other. I don't understand why so many Christians and the Christian establishment think that this is some sort of slippery slope into depravity. If you see a gay couple walking down the street and it makes you question the legitimacy of your heterosexual union, doesn't seem to me like it's the gay couple that needs to examine their relationship. And I certainly don't think 2 men holding hands is going to turn little Johnny gay. There is so much going on interally with the religious establishment of modern Christianity that is going to destroy the faith, rather than outside forces.

The Christian religion is not under attack. If anything, we're being checked for being incredible assholes. If the world is rebuking us, shouldn't we look within ourselves? Instead of calling for a moral crusade against the world? The history of our religion has been one of persecution and redemption. Is it right that as the most dominant global religion, we use that to persecute others? To throw others to figurative lions?

We are being lead by Pharisees. The Christian leadership has nothing better to do than tell the whole world how to lead their lives, and how moral and pious the Christian leadership has been and all the sacrifices they are making for their flocks. What stalwart shepards. They might as well put on makeup and wander the marketplaces, trying to convince other that they fast harder than everyone else.

I am grateful for accepting Jesus into my life. I am a better person for it. But it doesn't mean that I have to fall in lockstep with everyone else. Jesus was a Jew, a rabbi, but one who did not simply obey those who were in power. I'm not saying that I am the revolutionary Jesus was. Far from it. But I'm no longer willing to give my time or finances to support the organized Christian faith.

Bah. I've rambled too long. It kills me to think of it any longer.

tl;dr: I quit organized religion. Slow your roll Atheist-GAF, I'm still a Christian.

[3rdman]

Stage one: Complete

[Messypandas]

you'll be back

[Richfield]

At least there's still disorganised religion.

[The_Darkest_Red]

I know how you feel, I've been through a lot of the same issues over the past few years or so. The good news is you can almost guarantee that there are churches out there that share the stances you have.

Anyway, specifically regarding the gay marriage issue I'm looking forward to checking this book out.

[SmokyDave]

Tag quote, my good man :)

[CountAntonius]

Good stuff. I can respect a person of faith who has well thought out progressive opinions. more people should be like you.

[Zaptruder]

Well good for you!

Sundays are going to be awesome for you now.

[2San]

I thought you did this ages ago.

I stepped off from Islamic faith(while seriously believing for a large portion of my life). While I do believe God, I just have a hard time taking holy scriptures seriously. I used to find myself going through mental gymnastics just so I could justify my own views through the Koran. For some reason I still can't eat pork though. o_O

[willooi]

Good on you, by all means you can still believe in God and not have to go along with what the majority in a specific denomination tell you God is about.

When it comes to real social issues and discrimination, it's really disheartening, confusing and infuriating when church leaders, family members, hell even younger people in modern society who should know better, give their bigoted opinions - so it's good to know for yourself when something's dodgy or just plain wrong, and not have the views of the many overwrite that basic concept of what it's all about.

[Funky Papa]

I thought you did this ages ago. I stepped off from Islamic faith(while seriously believing for a large portion of my life). While I do believe God, I just have a hard time taking holy scriptures seriously. For some reason I still can't eat pork though. o_O

You should start with some fine jamón and freshly baked ciabatta, son.

[zomgbbqftw]

I thought you did this ages ago. I stepped off from Islamic faith(while seriously believing for a large portion of my life). While I do believe God, I just have a hard time taking holy scriptures seriously. I used to find myself going through mental gymnastics just so I could justify my own views through the Koran. For some reason I still can't eat pork though. o_O

Dude, go have some bacon. It is the best breakfast meat!

[Witchfinder General]

Good on you. I'm an atheist but have always believed the institutions are the problem not belief in of itself.

[2San]

You should start with some fine jamón and freshly baked ciabatta, son.

Dude, go have some bacon. It is the best breakfast meat!

I don't know for some reason I feel guilty. I think my family ingrained this in my psyche really well. It's a bit scary in some ways.

[nicoga3000]

I'm glad I'm not the only one. As a Christian, my feelings are nearly identical. A+ to you.

[Crunched]

I thought you did this ages ago. I stepped off from Islamic faith(while seriously believing for a large portion of my life). While I do believe God, I just have a hard time taking holy scriptures seriously. I used to find myself going through mental gymnastics just so I could justify my own views through the Koran. For some reason I still can't eat pork though. o_O

Can't eat pork? You're not missing much.

To OP: I don't see how the church is any different now than it has ever been. But they no longer have a monopoly on education, so people are free to think for themselves -- and realize what a load of shit most religious teachings are.

Be cool to people, that's the only commandment you need.

[Uncle Rupee]

Now read Letter to a Christian Nation

[V_Arnold]

Congratulations. I believe that you did a great step in a direction that will be better for yourself. Organized religions have always pushed me away as far from them as possible.

[Guileless]

I know how you feel, I've been through a lot of the same issues over the past few years or so. The good news is you can almost guarantee that there are churches out there that share the stances.

All of the mainline Protestant faiths share the OP's stances. Though their numbers are dwindling because most people who have these views tend to quit attending church altogether as the OP plans to do.

[Kentpaul]

God will turn his back on you OP for turning your back on the church

[Spiffy_1st]

I don't know for some reason I feel guilty. I think my family ingrained this in my psyche really well. It's a bit scary in some ways.

That'll probably make it more fun.

I don't really like eating meat because I often don't like the taste, but bacon...that's a whole other level. Do it!!

[Myoclonic Jerk]

I deleted so many replies.

I'll just go with. "good for you"

[The_Darkest_Red]

All of the mainline Protestant faiths share the OP's stances. Though their numbers are dwindling because most people who have these views tend to quit attending church altogether as the OP plans to do.

There are countless non-denominational Christian churches in the US with stances that cover the entire spectrum of most issues. Obviously they aren't the majority but you only need one good church to go to.

[Funky Papa]

I don't know for some reason I feel guilty. I think my family ingrained this in my psyche really well. It's a bit scary in some ways.

It's probably like eating horse, snails or rabbit in some cultures. You just need to open your mind.

And tastebuds.

[ezrarh]

I don't know for some reason I feel guilty. I think my family ingrained this in my psyche really well. It's a bit scary in some ways.

Just think of it this way, pig was the source of disease (and may still be but obviously not in significant numbers) thousands of years ago so whoever wrote that part of the Koran just wanted you to be safe and now eating pork is safe, so go get some bacon man.

[BertramCooper]

I feel very fortunate to have grown up in a very open-minded church - a UCC, to be specific.

My pastor growing up was one of the most intelligent and eloquent people I've ever met, and never used fire-and-brimstone histrionics in his sermons.

He died a couple of years ago and I miss him a lot. He was a remarkable person.

[2San]

I'll probably try bacon in the near future.

edit: Don't want to derail this thread further. Should have known Bacon(and somewhat pork) and Neogaf goes a long way.

[archnemesis]

I'll probably try bacon in the near future.

Don't limit yourself to bacon. I was having a barbecue with some Muslim friends the other day and they were all curious about the amazing smell of roasted pork.

[Weenerz]

I'll probably try bacon in the near future.

Just have turkey bacon, you'll live longer.

[Jason Raize '75 - '04]

ChiTown,

In your opening post you explained the conflict in views between you and other Christians. But how do your views compare to that of the Bible?

[mingus]

ChiTown, my fellow Korean friends are still adamant that the church is central to being a Christian. They're not assholes tho one is just a little slow, and the reason why we're friends is because they don't try to convert the rest of us and I don't try to force atheism on them. It's just that once in a while we'll talk about some topic like evolution, and their view, although expected, is still surprising to me. I'm just wondering how leaving the establishment portion has affected your other views at all, or if you've pretty much held to your convictions as they are now.

[captainraincoat]

look on the bright side...at least you can sleep your sunday hangovers off and not have to socialize with old people and sing crappy songs

[Dunk#7]

The issue with abortion hinges on when you consider the baby to be alive. If you believe life begins at conception then I am pretty sure the Bible is against murder. I am not sure where you draw the line if you don't count a life at conception. Do you believe all the aborted babies are in heaven? Or do you think those that were aborted early didn't count and simply do not exist?

The gay marriage thing is simply a matter of the Bible stating homosexuality is wrong and designated as a sin. It is not worse than any other sin as they are all equal in God's eyes. I am equally guilty on a fairly regular basis as we are all sinners and in need of someone to pay that sin debt for us. People are going to sin and that is their choice as a result of the freewill we are given. The Bible says homosexuality is wrong and therefore the acceptance of gay marriage would be an act of condoning the activity which I do not see how a Christian could.

If one is going to be a Christian and accept the Bible as truth I am not sure how they could reach a different conclusion.

[Bentendo]

I thought you did this ages ago. I stepped off from Islamic faith(while seriously believing for a large portion of my life). While I do believe God, I just have a hard time taking holy scriptures seriously. I used to find myself going through mental gymnastics just so I could justify my own views through the Koran. For some reason I still can't eat pork though. o_O

I'm the same way. I was (technically still am) a Jehovah's Witness and despite not believing I still can't bring myself to celebrate holidays or birthdays. Other things like neutrality in politics is ingrained in me.

[ChiTownBuffalo]

ChiTown, In your opening post you explained the conflict in views between you and other Christians. But how do your views compare to the Bible?

New Testament: Jesus didn't talk about homosexuality. He wasn't a big fan of divorce at all. No mention of abortion in the New Testament.

[XMonkey]

Wait, I thought you had some long posts in another thread about how you were now an atheist? Or am I thinking of someone else.

[Des0lar]

I don't know for some reason I feel guilty. I think my family ingrained this in my psyche really well. It's a bit scary in some ways.

I was in the same boat. My father being a muslim and all that... But now I can't imagine living without it anymore ;)

[Dead Man]

Tag quote, my good man :)

Indeed. No problems from me, I like disorganised religions the best.

[planar1280]

Just think of it this way, pig was the source of disease (and may still be but obviously not in significant numbers) thousands of years ago so whoever wrote that part of the Koran just wanted you to be safe and now eating pork is safe, so go get some bacon man.

No the reason stated is that pigs are one of the dirtiest animals

More reasons and better explanation here http://www.alislam.org/v/2535.html

And when eating pig in islam is acceptable http://www2.alislam.org/askislam/mp3...9850814_07.mp3

[Invisible_Insane]

ChiTown, In your opening post you explained the conflict in views between you and other Christians. But how do your views compare to the Bible?

I was going to raise this same issue. At what point can you still meaningfully call yourself a Christian if you've rejected substantial portions of biblically prescribed intolerance?

That being said, best of luck with your new perspective.

[Bay Maximus]

Having grown up in the church as a PK I will just say this; I understand. Too many people defend their personal ignorance with the shield of religion. Hope this decision works out for you and your peace of mind.

[Scrow]

Slow your roll Atheist-GAF, I'm still a Christian.

i don't really care if people believe in god. what i care about are your morals and attitude to others who don't share your beliefs.

by the looks of your OP both of those factors appear commendable in you. [/fist bump]

god, no god, not sure? doesn't matter. i'll judge you by the content of your character.

[RELAYER]

I was going to raise this same issue. At what point can you still meaningfully call yourself a Christian if you've rejected substantial portions necessarily of biblically prescribed intolerance? That being said, best of luck with your new perspective.

This sounds like a no true Scotsman reversal.

[endre]

tl;dr: I quit organized religion. Slow your roll Atheist-GAF, I'm still a Christian.

If it means anything, you have my full support. If you like it, then keep your spirituality.

Though, time to start reading up on those scientific issues about life, big bang and the rest.

Just have turkey bacon, you'll live longer.

He won't die from an occasional meal. now i want to taste that turkey bacon... I have a good feeling I'd like it way more

[Dunk#7]

New Testament: Jesus didn't talk about homosexuality. He wasn't a big fan of divorce at all. No mention of abortion in the New Testament.

Homosexuality is talked about in the NT:
Romans 1:26-27
Corinthians 1 6:9-10
Timothy 1 1:9-10


The Bible did give a few reasons for the allowance of divorce. One person can be justified in a divorce. I know one of the valid reasons is a cheating partner.

No abortion in the NT? I don't think it was even considered at the time, but the NT still speaks against murder. It all comes down to what you consider a life.

[Funky Papa]

Also, good for you Chi. Although from the look of things I'd say you quitted a long time ago.

[Dead Man]

I was going to raise this same issue. At what point can you still meaningfully call yourself a Christian if you've rejected substantial portions of biblically prescribed intolerance? That being said, best of luck with your new perspective.

A lot of what people assume is biblically prescribed is not from Jesus, or the New Testament.

No abortion in the NT? I don't think it was even considered at the time, but the NT still speaks against murder. It all comes down to what you consider a life.

I'll flip that on you, do you think every zygote that didn't go to term is in heaven?

[ChiTownBuffalo]

I was going to raise this same issue. At what point can you still meaningfully call yourself a Christian if you've rejected substantial portions necessarily of biblically prescribed intolerance? That being said, best of luck with your new perspective.

Theologically speaking, a Christian is someone who has received the Lord Jesus as Savior (John 1:12), trusts Him alone for the forgiveness of sins (Acts 4:12), has put no trust in his own efforts (Isaiah 64:6) to please God, and repented from his/her sins (Mark 1:15).

[Yenrot]

I deleted so many replies. I'll just go with. "good for you"

Tell us what you really think. We won't bite.

[teruterubozu]

Make sure you get it in writing so nobody's confused.